Invisibility

[Menelvagor]

I've been trying to ponder this out.

Did the ring make Sauron invisible like all the other ring bearers? Probably not, seeing as he could control it, though he could probably have used the ring to make himself invisible if he wanted too. Also, it would be very unlikely that he was invisible during the fight with Isildur, because that would put the cutting off of the ring as pure chance, which seems unlikely. So, Sauron was not involuntarily invisible (that sounds odd) when he wore the ring, why were the other ringbearers? Either they didn't have enough power innately to begin with to force the ring to not make them invisible (which implys that, for some unknown reason, the ring automaticly made its bearer invisible unless commanded otherwise) or that the ring chose to make the bearer invisible. Or it is a combinartion of the two, the ring chose to make you invisible unless you had enough power of your own to command it otherwise. If this is so then my question is, why?

The other aspect of it is, that turning invisible was just a side effect of entering the wraith world. You left the world of visible light and entered the shadowy evil one. This would of course aid the servents of the dark lord searching for the ring. It is less evident, though, early after the ring was lost, presumably because Sauron was searching less eagerly for it.

So then, the result we get is that, the ring, seeking to return to Sauron, brought whomever wore it into the wraith world so that Sauron's servents, looking for it, could find it more easily, but that, one wearing the ring was not necessarily in the wraith world, and that, if they mastered the ring, they could enter and leave it freely.

Did that make sense to anyone? (it was kind of stream of contiousness, I know...) Any other thoughts on this peculiar aspect of the Ring?

[Christiana]

Er.. Saraun wuz already bordering on the wraith world?:confused:

[Faramir]

Um, you took anything anyone else could say in the first post!:( But I agree with everything you said.;) You made more logic than I could.:rolleyes: :D

[Mirahzi]

Perhaps the ring had different effects on people of different character.. Maybe evil or corrupted creatures, such as Sauron and Gollum were not made invisible, but good-hearted fellows, such as the three ring-bearers were. But, to prove that theory we would need to know whether or not Gollum's visibility was affected by the ring.

[Christiana]

It was.

[Mirahzi]

Wow, that was blunt :D

[Christiana]

duh

[Mirahzi]

Wait... by saying
It was.
You're talking about Gollum being able to become invisible.. right? Just trying to reaffirm that, since I've never read about that and a 'duh' really isn't all that convincing.

[BeardofPants]

Strange that it had no effect upon Tom Bombadil, though.

[Mirahzi]

Well, I don't think we can really include Bombadil in any theory, since he's a bit of a question mark...

[Khamûl]

I think that Sauron was the only one who could put on the Ring and not become invisible. (Except Bombadil, and the Ring didn't have any effect on him at all) Sauron was the only one who had the power to make the Ring do his bidding. I agree with the thoughts about the Ring sending you into the wraith world so that the servants of Sauron could find you more easily. Oh, and yes, Gollum's visibility was affected. That's how he caught small orcs in the Hobbit: by becoming invisible and sneaking up on them.

[Mirahzi]

Thanks for clearing that up Khamul.. I suppose that makes my explanation worthless. :(

[Khamûl]

Not at all. That was your explanation and you're entitled to it. It was an interesting thought, though.:) I had to think about it a little bit before I recalled that line from the Hobbit about Gollum killing small orcs while he was invisible.

[Tar-Elendil]

Tom doesnt turn invisible because he is Tulkas! NO NO IM JUST KIDDING! :p
i think sauron could stay visible because he: 1. had to power to do so, 2. forged it.
i think the whole sauron servant finding ring thing is a probability.
and mebbe maiar's just wouldnt be effected by the ring?

:) yes yes...TOM MUST BE A MAIAR?!:D

[Mirahzi]

Well, IIRC Gandalf is/was a Maiar and he thought he would be affected by the ring.. so Tom would reasonably have to be a much greater Maia or a being of higher status than a Maiar.

[Earniel]

Maybe the different effect the ring had on Sauron can be explained by the fact that he was the one and sole Lord of the Ring *omnious music* Or maybe by the fact that he was body-less (or how do you say that?)

[Menelvagor]

Maybe you could use this theory to prove Tom was a Maia or Vala (of at least equal power to Sauron)?

Hm, but with Tom it wasn't so much that he had power over the ring, it was that the ring had no power over him...

[Tar-Elendil]

gandalf only talked about how th ring would affect him in his status of good/bad dude..get what im sayin?:)
i was just merely making a guess..but more i think about, more tom must be a maiar:)
and sauron did have a body
it was described as black and burning.
or..wait for it... tom must be a cleverly disquised Sauron !:D
no no..thats impossible

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil
and sauron did have a body
it was described as black and burning.

Hadn't forgotten that, but he lost his first one didn't he?

[Tar-Elendil]

it was destroyed in the downfall of numenor and he wasnt "ever to take fair form again"
which leads me to ask a question...how ya think he got the ring from to numenor to middle-earth:) his spirit couldnt have brought it..

[Earniel]

Maybe he left it in his safe in the Barad-dur :D

[Tar-Elendil]

lol..

[Christiana]

Actually,he did.

[Tar-Elendil]

ive heard different versions

[azalea]

In Letters Tolkein basically says that his spirit does carry it with him.
My best guess on Tom at this point is that he is Aule (although I'm open to discussion about that), and that's why it didn't make him invisible.
I think the point that since Sauron was the maker of the ring he was not affected in that way is valid, as well as the fact that he is not really "alive" or whatever. We don't really know how it would affect Gandalf/ other Maia because they never tried it on, so to speak. Maybe it did only make those of this earth invisible. Then again, maybe Gandalf would have been invisible, maybe Sauron wasn't because he, being the maker, had an "option," or maybe he couldn't become invisible by it because he kind of WAS the ring in a sense -- just some random musings.

[Tar-Elendil]

i dont see any similarities between tom and aule:confused: :D

[Cirdan]

I think Olorin, as one of the oldest istari and a Maiar, might be a good candidate for Tom. He dwelt in Lorien, and learned pity and patience from Nienna. These qualities fit his character; He had a calming affect and an affinity for trees..

[Mirahzi]

Well, yes those qualities do fit his character, but I sincerely doubt that Olorin could be Tom's identity.. considering the fact that Olorin is indeed Gandalf/Mithrandir.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Mirahzi
Well, yes those qualities do fit his character, but I sincerely doubt that Olorin could be Tom's identity.. considering the fact that Olorin is indeed Gandalf/Mithrandir.

You are right. What was I thinking:confused: . I definitely need to go get some sleep.

I was trying to find an early entry that fit his personality in the Sil.

The search continues... tomorrow. :o

[Earniel]

Originally posted by azalea
.....or maybe he couldn't become invisible by it because he kind of WAS the ring in a sense -- just some random musings.

Hey, you could be right here! The ring was part of him and visa versa. That would be a plausible explanation for Sauron not to disappear while wearing the ring.

[Tar-Elendil]

possibly sauron was always in "the wraith world" though he was visible. wild guess

[Eldanuumea]

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil
possibly sauron was always in "the wraith world" though he was visible. wild guess

That's actually not a bad idea. Sauron may very well have always had one foot in the wraithworld door, so to speak, since he was Maia. But wouldn't that mean that Gandalf and the other Istari would be half-in the other world as well?

By the way, someone please tell me how to get an avatar around here!!

[Tar-Elendil]

the vala (before they took on forms) were just mere spirits. they musta been in the "wraith world"?:confused:

[azalea]

I read a really good essay on the web proposing the "Tom is Aule" theory. But as I said, I'm not 100% convinced.

I think Sauron would be more in the wraith world than Gandalf because his phisical body had been destroyed before. Gandalf the White was more "other worldly" in some ways than he was as the Grey, wasn't he? maybe that does have some bearing on it.

[Tar-Elendil]

saying tom is aule is even more ludicrous than saying tom is tulkas:p
i dont see any similarities in them. can you please tell any of them:confused:

[Mirahzi]

Originally posted by azalea
I read a really good essay on the web proposing the "Tom is Aule" theory. But as I said, I'm not 100% convinced.

I think Sauron would be more in the wraith world than Gandalf because his phisical body had been destroyed before. Gandalf the White was more "other worldly" in some ways than he was as the Grey, wasn't he? maybe that does have some bearing on it.

Other worldly? I thought he was just Gandalf reincarnated by the powers of Valinor.. Similar to Glorfindel being sent back, Gandalf was also sent back to take care of 'unfinished business'

[Tar-Elendil]

gandalf never died becuz he was a maiar, his body perished(just like what happened with Sauron).I recall him saying something like "he walked long in dark thought" or something.
he took on once again the form of "gandalf"

[Cirdan]

Did his boby perish? He was "in long darkness" and "was sent back" naked. It is vaguely implied he died, but never really stated that way. Him time in Lothlorien was described as timeless. It seems that he was totally drained by the battle, but was conscience during and after. He could have just as well ascended in power by defeating another maiar.

[Wayfarer]

The other aspect of it is, that turning invisible was just a side effect of entering the wraith world. You left the world of visible light and entered the shadowy evil one.

You are slightly in error.

There are two realms... the Seen and the Unseen. You can think of them as physical and spiritual. The ring did push it's bearer into the unseen world, and could be used to gain power over it. The domination of other wills (spirits), etc.

I think that it's likely that the shift into the unseen world would have made a mortal invisible. It is also possible that a strong willed person could have learned to make themself visible while wearing the ring-remember, maia were 'by default' invisible spirits, they had to exert themselves to form a physical body. So they were simply increased in power by the ring, the physical construct would have likely still worked.

[Christiana]

Tom's Elvish name was Iarwain Ben-adar, occuring to Elrond.
And in Apendix B it states clearly that Gandalf died and returned 2 life.:D

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Christiana
Tom's Elvish name was Iarwain Ben-adar, occuring to Elrond.
And in Apendix B it states clearly that Gandalf died and returned 2 life.:D

Quite right on both counts. It's interesting that in the text he only experiences it as being taken away and returned. Also, if he is brought back to life, why use the wasted body and spend the time to heal in Lothlorien? It seems an afterthought to put in the appendix that he died. (I must admit I read it the first time I read the book, but not in subsequent readings). I wonder if the ambiguity in the text was Tolkien trying to avoid the allegorical form (as some have written than he abhorred), but the death fit his faith's concept of sacrifice as opposed to the eastern concept of a re-incarnation. Either way it seems he was coscious during the whole period.

Who is Tom. B? I'm still looking. Any ideas?

Why was gandalf so eager to see Tom after the RotK? What business was more urgent that the "shadow in the shire"?

[Menelvagor]

There are two realms... the Seen and the Unseen. You can think of them as physical and spiritual. The ring did push it's bearer into the unseen world, and could be used to gain power over it. The domination of other wills (spirits), etc.

I think that it's likely that the shift into the unseen world would have made a mortal invisible. It is also possible that a strong willed person could have learned to make themself visible while wearing the ring-remember, maia were 'by default' invisible spirits, they had to exert themselves to form a physical body. So they were simply increased in power by the ring, the physical construct would have likely still worked.

We seem to have several differing definitions (hey, alliteration) of the wraith world. I always took it to be something like being dead, but not going to Mandos. There could be only two possible causes to that effect, one would be that it might the ultimate fate of men, the other that (as is shown with the ringwraiths and the dead men of Dunharrow) a superior will or power holds people to remain. The Nazgul pretty much dominate it at the time of the War of the Ring, and it seems like a fairly evil place, (see Eowyn, Faramir, and Merry's recollections of the black breath) the archetype it fits is that of restless souls with 'unfinished buisness.' Your definition appears to be (correct me if I'm wrong) the invisible world of the ainur. Is there a textual basis for either of these? (I'm not being facitious, I really don't know) Did Tolkien ever say anything about it?

[Tar-Elendil]

And in Apendix B it states clearly that Gandalf died and returned 2 life
his body perished..his spirit fled his body..he didnt exactly "die"..like what happened with saurons body at numenore.

[Mirahzi]

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil

his body perished..his spirit fled his body..he didnt exactly "die"..like what happened with saurons body at numenore.

Isn't that the basic idea of 'dying?' The said person/wizard/whatever would be killed, leaving his/her/its body behind and the spirit would go elsewhere.

[BeardofPants]

Isn't that the basic idea of 'dying?' The said person/wizard/whatever would be killed, leaving his/her/its body behind and the spirit would go elsewhere.

For someone like us, yeah. But Gandalf was a Maia, and chose to masquerade in the form of flesh and blood.

[Tar-Elendil]

Who is Tom. B? I'm still looking. Any ideas?
some wacko maiar:) thats the only thing I can think of..or the remnent of some forgotten people..

[Mirahzi]

Cirdan, I doubt you'll find anything definite, but the Maiar theory is the generally accepted one.. though it has its flaws.

EDIT: See the Encyclopedia of Arda if you need more information... http://www.glyphweb.com/arda

(hope that's not advertising)

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


For someone like us, yeah. But Gandalf was a Maia, and chose to masquerade in the form of flesh and blood.

Oh, like that guy in "Silence of the Lambs".:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Mirahzi
Cirdan, I doubt you'll find anything definite, but the Maiar theory is the generally accepted one.. though it has its flaws.

EDIT: See the Encyclopedia of Arda if you need more information... http://www.glyphweb.com/arda

(hope that's not advertising)

It's only advertising if it isn't a good link. This is not advertising!:)

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Menelvagor
We seem to have several differing definitions (hey, alliteration) of the wraith world. I always took it to be something like being dead, but not going to Mandos. There could be only two possible causes to that effect, one would be that it might the ultimate fate of men, the other that (as is shown with the ringwraiths and the dead men of Dunharrow) a superior will or power holds people to remain. The Nazgul pretty much dominate it at the time of the War of the Ring, and it seems like a fairly evil place, (see Eowyn, Faramir, and Merry's recollections of the black breath) the archetype it fits is that of restless souls with 'unfinished buisness.' Your definition appears to be (correct me if I'm wrong) the invisible world of the ainur. Is there a textual basis for either of these? (I'm not being facitious, I really don't know) Did Tolkien ever say anything about it?

Yes. ;)

At the fords, frodo is slipping into the wraith world, and can see the nazgful clearly-but he also sees glorfindel 'a figure clothed in light'. So It's safe to assume that the unseen realm, in itself, is not evil.

The spirit-fea-of men and elves in normally anchored or 'housed' in the body-hroa, matter. Upon death it is unhoused, and free to move on it's own. However, it no longer can interact with the physical world. Also, upon death an elven spirit is summoned to mandos, and to refuse that summons is an evil thing. Human spirits are summoned somewhere, but to refuse is likewise evil (although I'm not sure if most m,en had the power to resist).

So it's safe to assume that any bodiless spirit is tainted-either deranged and having refused the summons, or under the thrall of some evil power. In that sense, the wraith world can be considered a rather evil place.

However, the more spiritually powerful beings in arda (gandalf, glorfindel, etc) also have a strong presence in the unseen realm, and thus can act in it.

[Menelvagor]

Ok, sounds good to me. ;)

[Tar-Elendil]

lol, yea..good job wayfarer:P

[Wayfarer]

Bows not-quite humbly.

[azalea]

Gandalf was very much attached to his body; I think Maia that took bodily form were. He got pleasure from smoking, he used his body language to convey his mood, he certainly didn't have the power to travel any differently than other worldly beings (Shadowfax notwithstanding). When he came back I think he was "refreshed" in the sense that he had been loosed from the physical body he had so long used, and when he came back he was as a result more connected to the other world ("Oh, yes, Gandalf, that's what I was called," etc.). That's what I meant by otherworldly, meaning more connected to that other place. he seems somewhat different. So it was just a thought, that losing the body then returning allows one to remain visible when wearing the ring...*ramble, ramble*....
As far as Tom, read this essay (I assume it's not advertising since I am using it to illustrate a point?):
http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html
This is the only essay I've read concerning his identity, but I think the guy makes a good case for his theory. The only thing that throws a wrench in it for me is calling Goldberry the Riverwoman's Daughter and saying he found her sitting by the river and all that. That doesn't quite mesh with it.

[Christiana]

Nice link:)

[Cirdan]

The link was good. His research was better than the theory, though. Tolkien would have explained Tom B. on The Sil. if he had intended him to be understood. IMO it was a bit of capricious bit of sentimentality on JRRT's part to include a character based on his child's toy. I think he loved how the character represented what he wanted to say at that point in the story, and that he didn't want to recreate him. He may have thought it pretentious to include to in the grand scheme of the Silmarillion since he existed in a previous story.

[Aragorn_iz_cool]

No, the ring did not make souron invisible.