Finrod, Sauron and the Ring

[afro-elf]

Sauron and Finrod duelled in a magic battle in the first age.

Sauron did win but it shows finrods strength.

If Finrod had faced Sauron with Elendil I think he may have survived the battle. Maybe Elendil too.

He probably would have had the strength to destroy the ring then.


However say the ring was lost and finrod was high king of the elves in the third age. Do you think he would have accompanied the fellowship like he did with Beren? I belive so.

He may have even had the strength to battle and beat sauron this time since he was ringless

Wow Finrod and Glorfindel together in the 3rd age

that's better than batman and robin :)

also I think that finrod would have been active in the late 3rd age than taken an more active fight against the weakned sauron.

[Sauron's Nagging Wife]

Well, Finrod abandoned his kingdom and went with Beren because of the life-debt he owed Barahir... but I tend to agree that he would have gone.

Finrod also seemed very fatalistic, he never married and told Galadriel that he would have nothing to leave an heir. I count him among the greatest of the Elves, and her certainly wasn't a hot-headed nut like the sons of Feanor. I wonder if it was because of the mixed blood: Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri.

Would he have survived hand-combat with Sauron? All we can do is conjecture, but if both Finrod and Fingolfin (my other favorite) fought, I think it might have happened.

[afro-elf]

An uncle/nephew tag team of Finrod and Fingolfin would have been AWESOME

I have great respect for Finrod, but Fingolfin is my favorite Calaquendi

My favorite Sindar is Mablung


and my favorite avari is my RPG character of course.

[Tar-Elendil]

If Finrod had faced Sauron with Elendil I think he may have survived the battle. Maybe Elendil too.
elendil coulda took sauron w/o his ring!:)
ive seen some of your posts about elendil..
you seem to doubt the power of the Númenoreans:mad: :D

[Sauron's Nagging Wife]

Both Finrod and Fingolfin were born in Aman and were thousands of years old. Even if you don't believe that the Noldor were far superior to all Mortals, even men of Numenor (I do), then you must admit that warriors with such a long life must have an advantage over a people who only live a century or two.

I don't think Elendil or any mortal could have defeated Sauron with or without his Ring, even with a Valinorian blade.



Afro-elf, my very naughty RP character knew Finrod rather well :D Although she never met Fingolfin, she laughed in glee when he hewed off the foot of that idiot, Melkor (didn't we all, though?)

[Tar-Elendil]

Originally posted by Sauron's Nagging Wife
Both Finrod and Fingolfin were born in Aman and were thousands of years old. Even if you don't believe that the Noldor were far superior to all Mortals, even men of Numenor (I do), then you must admit that warriors with such a long life must have an advantage over a people who only live a century or two.

I don't think Elendil or any mortal could have defeated Sauron with or without his Ring, even with a Valinorian blade.



Afro-elf, my very naughty RP character knew Finrod rather well :D Although she never met Fingolfin, she laughed in glee when he hewed off the foot of that idiot, Melkor (didn't we all, though?)
i seriously think elendil could have defeated sauron without his ring. he probably would have suffered deadly wounds but he still woulda took em down!:) aye, elves that were from Aman would obviously have power over Men and other Elves. i never said anything to the contrary. but when you say far superior i think you're goin a bit far. aye, superior but not to the extent you're thinking of. look at turin among the grey elves (yea i know grey elves arent the noldor). he was mightier in arms on the marches of doriath than all save beleg alone. and when you say "even a valinorean blade" u mean a blade from valinor, i assume. remember the noldor learned alot of weapon smithying from the Dwarves. a dwarf made narsil which cut the ring off sauron. nonetheless you are entitled to your opinion even if mine is different and you're wrong!:p :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Elves and Men especially in the early ages of ME were similiar physically. The Elves of Aman were taller than Elves born in ME, and most Men, but their physical strengths were not really superior. Elves were more spiritual creatures and I would say superior in knowledge than Men.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Moving to the Silmarillion forum.:)

[Tar-Elendil]

read "Of Men" in the Silmarillion
notice that theyre not saying "Of Numenoreans" but men in general. it even says the elves of doriath come close to the noldor out of aman..turin was among the elves on the marches of doriath, read my earlier post. just imagine if turin was replaced by a numenorean who had went back in time somehow:) he would outfight and own all those elves, even beleg.:D

[afro-elf]

JRRT said that Sauron "had no enemies so great and so fell as were the Noldor in their might in the Elder Days".


Hurin was said to have been the greatest human warrior ever, turin was his son. Genetics baby

Hurin would fell ANY other mortal.


and yes turin was among the grey elves so your comments there are extraneous since gil-galad/finrod were noldo kings

and any numemnorean would not whoop ALL those elves.


HOWEVER, i do like the numenoreans. Read some of the past post there are a few about the power of men and elves and this should put your thoughts to rest

[Tar-Elendil]

and any numemnorean would not whoop ALL those elves.
mebbe i shouldnt have used "any"..But the average numenorean would probably beat the sheot out of the average grey elf. Yes yes, getting way too into it, i know. :)

[Sauron's Nagging Wife]

Considering what Sauron did to Numenor singlehandedly without lifting a weapon, I would say they were a pretty sad bunch.

Anyway, whatever a motal man's skill in warfare, such strength is not enough to stand against a Ainu. Fingolfin was able to since he still had the fire of the Blessed Lands. If only poor Gil-galad had another great Elf Lord with him instead of one of those useless, fragile mortals, the outcome may have been different.

:D

[Tar-Elendil]

Originally posted by Sauron's Nagging Wife
Considering what Sauron did to Numenor singlehandedly without lifting a weapon, I would say they were a pretty sad bunch.

Anyway, whatever a motal man's skill in warfare, such strength is not enough to stand against a Ainu. Fingolfin was able to since he still had the fire of the Blessed Lands. If only poor Gil-galad had another great Elf Lord with him instead of one of those useless, fragile mortals, the outcome may have been different.

:D
you obviously havent read the silmarillion or any HoME books properly to make a statement like that. the faithful werent corrupted by sauron. and elves were too! why did they make the rings! theyw ere friends with sauron at the time! he learned much skill from them! and neways..ALOT of morgoths power had went out of him by creating orcs dragons and everything. THATS WHY FINGOLFIN GOT THE SHOTS OFF OF HIM THAT HE DID, IF HE HADNT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN OWNED. the Noldoli arent invincible. useless fragile mortals.. I suggest you read some more, then you can talk to me.

[Tar-Elendil]

sauron didnt corrupt some of the numenoreans singlehandedly either, he had the ring. when he came among the elves and won them over in middle-earth the 2nd age (although not all of the elves) he DIDNT HAVE THE RING. the faithful resisted him and he had the ring. it tells you something..once again read some more and then talk to me. Now i see why they call you sauron's nagging wife.

[Sauron's Nagging Wife]

The elves who made the rings weren't corrupted, they were fooled, but Gil-galad and Elrond weren't which is more than we can say for the Numenorian Kings.

Fingolfin at least stood toe to toe with that idiot Melkor that led my fair husband astray, and I admire that Noldo greatly.

Tar-Elendil, my lad, you must calm down. I don't care if you don't want to talk with me, but there is no reason to get so upset because I disagree with you. There's no need for shouting or personal attacks.

[Tar-Elendil]

The elves who made the rings weren't corrupted, they were fooled, but Gil-galad and Elrond weren't which is more than we can say for the Numenorian Kings.
look at my previous post..i said won them over. and numenorean kings? ha.. you mean numenorean KING
ar-pharazon. just becuz he could bend that king to his will doesnt mean he could have done it to all of them. ar-pharazon was just a bad seed. he siezed the scepter aftet the death of his uncle when it should have gone to his cousin.

[Sister Golden Hair]

That's a much better tone there TE. I know she's Sauron's wife, but you still have to be nice to her.:)

[afro-elf]

Tar elendil maybe YOU should get your facts straight before attacking another mooter.


sauron didnt corrupt some of the numenoreans singlehandedly either, he had the ring. when he came among the elves and won them over in middle-earth the 2nd age (although not all of the elves) he DIDNT HAVE THE RING. the faithful resisted him and he had the ring.

Sauron came in a fair guise to the elves. ( this will come into play below)

And he learned from them. That should tell you something of the power of the noldo. Also at that time how many were left that were calaquendi vs noldo. celembrior was noldo but not calaquendi and he still had the power to create the rings on his own.


The Faithful of Numenor were a minority. The general populace of Andor turned from the light many years past. It was in SA 1800 that the shadow 1st falls on numenor

when sauron was taken to numenor in sa 3262 almost 1500 years after the shadow fall on numenor he came as Sauron the dark lord, NOT in the fair guise as annatar the gift giver


.look at my previous post..i said won them over. and numenorean kings? ha.. you mean numenorean KING

it is also said the he seduces the king (singular) AND he corrupts the numenoreans ( plural)

sauron as the dark lord revealed seduce no elven king nor did he corrupt any elven nation.


only the handful of the numenoreans tainted and THEY were allied with the elves

[Cirdan]

Nice smack-down, AE. The Numenoreans were on the way down before sauron arrived. He was fearful of them prior, and was not willing to take on both them and the elves in force. He came in his visage but his verbal skills were said to have helped in "turning up the heat" on the numenorians lust for immortality. This is why Isildur was such a critical character; his family's defection saved the faithful remnants and built the culture that would ultimately save middle earth. Sure, the Numenoreans built a few coastal cities, but they were not willing to really challege the mainland forces of anyone. The irony was that the numenorean's alliance with sauron was his first major downfall and the loss of him physical form. It was strange to read that part of the silmarillion, knowing he survived. (i'm evil but i can't swim) I really liked the rise and fall of the numenoreans as a story. It was more like human cultures and empires. It was strange that they thought that 400 years wasn't long enough. They had contact with mortal men so on the scale they should have felt they were doing relatively well. Too bad Tolkien didn't live 400 years so we could get the whole story;)

[Ñólendil]

If Finrod had faced Sauron with Elendil I think he may have survived the battle. Maybe Elendil too.

Because of the One Ring, or especially because of the One Ring, Sauron was far more powerful when he fought Elendil and Gil-galad than when he battled with Finrod in songs of power. In fact Tolkien said that Sauron was more powerful at the end of the Second Age, "effectively", than Morgoth was at the end of the First. So I don't know. In any case somehow Sauron was slain, though my memory is hazy about just how it happened.

I have great respect for Finrod, but Fingolfin is my favorite Calaquendi

My favorite Sindar is Mablung

and my favorite avari is my RPG character of course.

Calaquendë, Sinda and Avar, Denzel. You know I have to nit-pick.

Both Finrod and Fingolfin were born in Aman and were thousands of years old. Even if you don't believe that the Noldor were far superior to all Mortals, even men of Numenor (I do),

How can anyone be superior to someone else?

But the average numenorean would probably beat the sheot out of the average grey elf. Yes yes, getting way too into it, i know.

Ah, the average Númenorean was not a warrior.

Considering what Sauron did to Numenor singlehandedly without lifting a weapon, I would say they were a pretty sad bunch.

When you think Sauron, think Beelzebub. And when you think of what he accomplished in Númenor (which had already fallen, really, for the most part), do not forget what he accomplished in Eregion.

Anyway, whatever a motal man's skill in warfare, such strength is not enough to stand against a Ainu. Fingolfin was able to since he still had the fire of the Blessed Lands.

But don't forget Morgoth was greatly decreased in strength, he was no longer great among the Powers, in fact was he least among the powers, and many Maiar were above him in affective power. By himself in a physical fight, Morgoth just didn't measure up to the other Valar or many of the Maiar. I have no doubt that Húrin could have done what Fingolfin did.

ALOT of morgoths power had went out of him by creating orcs dragons and everything.

He didn't create them. He made them, which is different. I don't think it was in the making alone that his power was spent. It was whenever he put part of himself into his makings, his spirit, his malice and all that.

sauron didnt corrupt some of the numenoreans singlehandedly either, he had the ring. when he came among the elves and won them over in middle-earth the 2nd age (although not all of the elves) he DIDNT HAVE THE RING. the faithful resisted him and he had the ring. it tells you something..once again read some more and then talk to me. Now i see why they call you sauron's nagging wife.

You're not being very nice. I don't think the Ring had much to do with what he did on Elenna. It's never really brought up in the Akallabeth. On the other hand the Akallabeth was written by Elendil, who didn't know about the Ring. The Ring increased Sauron's power, I'll give you that, but I don't think it really aided him in corrupting the Númenoreans.

The elves who made the rings weren't corrupted, they were fooled, but Gil-galad and Elrond weren't which is more than we can say for the Numenorian Kings.

There are several places in the Tolkien Letters where Tolkien talks about the chief flaws of the Elves. He's always mentioning their wrong desire to hold back Time, to have their cake without eating it (or something like that). He's always mentioning the Elves of Eregion (especially the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdain) when he brings this up. It was definitely a sort of Fall. They went to extreme measures to achieve something they shouldn't have been trying to achieve, and for the wrong reasons. So it wasn't just that they were fooled. Sauron taught them and helped them out in achieving something that was wrong, which they were already working at or desiring.

Sorry to be abit redundant, some of these points have been covered.

[afro-elf]

My comment about finrod and elendil is that gil- and elendil bested sauron and but gil wasn't calaquendi and fin was giving him a better shot a surviving

the idea of sauron being more powerful has be taken been up before

Does the end of the 1st age after the war of wrath when he was defeated.

does it mean innate power.

does it mean land area controlled

does it mean influence

How can anyone be superior to someone else?

is this a serious question?

in fact was he least among the powers

is this explicited stated somewhere?
I have no doubt that Húrin could have done what Fingolfin did.

weakened vala or no he wasn't a push over. and great power was still in him. Fingolfin was a calaquendi or the hightest order and even though i've great respect for hurin i don't think he could have taken fingolfin less and on Morgoth


many Maiar were above him in affective power

what are you qualifying as MANY

Calaquendë, Sinda and Avar, Denzel. You know I have to nit-pick

just keeping you on your toes now that you've got a life :)

[afro-elf]

also

it says in the SIL that morgoth's might was the GREATEST OF ALL THINGS IN THE WORLD

at least at that time

[Ñólendil]

Does the end of the 1st age after the war of wrath when he was defeated.

does it mean innate power.

does it mean land area controlled

does it mean influence

I have a very good answer for that. The text that talks about is in Morgoth's Ring, but I typed it all up and posted it in this (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?threadid=2127&highlight=Sauron+was+greater+effectively) thread. It's called "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion".

is this a serious question?

No, it's rhetorical. I might have said "No one is superior to anyone else".

is this explicited stated somewhere?

I think so. If so it would be in Morgoth's Ring, probably in Myths Transformed. Of course when he was first created and for a long while after that he was the greatest being ever created by God. But by the end of the First Age he was much diminished.

weakened vala or no he wasn't a push over. and great power was still in him.

True.

what are you qualifying as MANY

Just an opinion of mine. I wouldn't say "most", so I don't know. I don't know, maybe by the end of the First Age 10% of the Maiar were greater than he was. Maybe not. I don't know.

it says in the SIL that morgoth's might was the GREATEST OF ALL THINGS IN THE WORLD

at least at that time

I wouldn't say "at least". Certainly at one time there was no one more powerful than Melkor save Eru, but things changed.

[afro-elf]

Great post you linked to.

you are the scribe of the moot;)

[Tar-Elendil]

i havent even begun to personally attack other mooters. and im not going to be worried about it when people act assanine to me ..im not being nice? ha..whaever..
i apologize if i offended anyone..hows that for nice?

[Ñólendil]

once again read some more and then talk to me. Now i see why they call you sauron's nagging wife.

Surely this is an unkind thing to say? "Read some more and then talk to me", this can be understood to mean that you are implying Sauron's Nagging Wife is in some way inferior to you, that she should do more research before even attempting to start up a conversation about Tolkien with you. I'm not an admin anymore, so I'm not trying to moderate, anyone can say you're not being nice. And obviously your apology is not sincere. It's really none of my business, I just don't think a debate about Sauron is any reason to insult someone, directly or indirectly. I mean, is there any reason to care that much?

[Wayfarer]

When you compare morgoth and sauron, you've got to realize that sauron spent the second age consolidating and centralizing his power, while morgoth spent the first age spreading his out through beleriand.

So sauron could bring overwhelming force to bear on a small area, while morgoth had power over a great distance, but couldn't bring as much to bear as quickly.

And I've always had the idea that he made pretty quick work of Gil galad and Elendil, but got distracted and Isildur cut off his ring.
I think that sauron would have absolutely crushed finrod at the end of the second age.

As Blackheart once said 'In the second age, he was only barely defeated by the combined forces of the greatest kings of men and elves. In the first age he lost to a girl and a dog."

[Tar-Elendil]

i apologized and if you think it insincere, be that as it may. And im not saying anyone is inferior to me
once againm i apolgize to her. i am sorry, i truly am, but dont freakin lecture me dude.
if two apolgies isnt good enuff for you, then i dont really care.

[Ñólendil]

I could lecture you about the word "dude", but I won't :p Oops, too late. :D No apology at all is good enough for me, I'm just nagging.

;)

In the first age he lost to a girl and a dog."

Oh, come on. The dog was a Maia and the girl was the greatest of all the Eldar. I should smack Xandre for using a bad example.

[Wayfarer]

In his defense, he did qualify his statement, but I conveniently left that part out.

But I've always wondered whenter Huan was actually a maia... he was one of orome's hunting dogs, was he not? Also, it doesn't seem to fit with the other animals brought from valinor. Shadofax was supposedly descended from orome's horse... and the kine of araw were likewise descended from orome's hunting stock.

on the other hand, huan was somewhat unique among animals.

[afro-elf]

And I've always had the idea that he made pretty quick work of Gil galad and Elendil, but got distracted and Isildur cut off his ring.

I always thought that Gil, elendil and sauron slew each other and isildur cut the ring off after sauron "died"

I think that sauron would have absolutely crushed finrod at the end of the second age

again my point was not one on one combat. it was finrod and elendil. And, the idea of finrod being a powerful calaquendi while gil was power a noldor but not calaquendi

[afro-elf]

Luthein was 1/2 calaquendi and 1/2 maia

[Ñólendil]

But I've always wondered whenter Huan was actually a maia...

Tolkien names him a Maia, I believe it's in Morgoth's Ring. The idea I suppose is that he was a Maia of Orome, who for some mysterious reason was put into or chose to assume the form of a Hound. It makes sense really, Werewolves and Wargs are often described as demonic. Perhaps he had commited some minor crime and that was his punishment, but he also chose to go on the Rebellion of his own free will. That would explain (kind of) why he would only be permitted to speak three times. I mean if he was being punished in some way.

[MasterMothra]

from reading the sil, gathered that sauron slew both gil galad and elendil, then fell down. then isuldur saw the ring and cut it from saurons hand while sauron was down.

as far as morgoth was concerned, at the time he fought fingolfin "his might was still greatest of all things in this world". what fingolfin did was the most valiant in me, but he was still no match for the power of a valar. and imho there were no mair that would stand a chance against morgoth. it took a host of men, elves, dwarves and valar to defeat him.

even dimenished, sauron was a most formidible foe for any, be it men or elf.

i know i am the minority here, but i feel i must "represent" for my dark homeys.

[Ñólendil]

as far as morgoth was concerned, at the time he fought fingolfin "his might was still greatest of all things in this world". what fingolfin did was the most valiant in me, but he was still no match for the power of a valar. and imho there were no mair that would stand a chance against morgoth. it took a host of men, elves, dwarves and valar to defeat him.

If Tolkien ever said what you said in your first sentence there, and I don't doubt it, he later changed his mind. It's all in Morgoth's Ring. You mention all the hosts it took to defeat Morgoth. But they fought Morgoth's armies, not Morgoth himself. Morgoth's might was still greatest of all the things in this world, but only when all the things he had disseminated his power throughout were united. When his armies were crushed, he his in the deepest caverns of Angband and was unvaliant. He cowered before whoever came there, Eonwe, or Tulkas or whomever. Then his feet was cut out from under him, his crown was beat into a collar and he was taken back to Aman, where he was executed.

And I'm not even so sure about Fingolfin's valor. Was it valor or madness?

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Ñólendil

And I'm not even so sure about Fingolfin's valor. Was it valor or madness?

Extreme valor requires a bit of madness, doesb't it? I think someone said if courageous were completely sensible they would avoid battle all together.

You link was right on about Melkor in a way I hadn't thought about. He had great power in the "magical" sense (creation of dragons, rending the land, bending the will of opponents), but strictly in combat he was not the greatest warrior of the Valar.

Fingolfin might have had a decent chance in other circumstance. Grond hammering away at him on the enemies "home turf" limited his attack. How would Melkor have fared on neutral ground?

"It's just a flesh wound"

"You foot's off!":)

[Ñólendil]

Hey, you're right. Good points! :)

("I cut your leg off!", "No, you didn't", "Yes, I did! Look!", ... "I've had worse", "Liar")

[Tar-Elendil]

it says in the SIL that morgoth's might was the GREATEST OF ALL THINGS IN THE WORLD
yea, and it also says that alone of all the vala he knew fear.
morgoth was scared he would get his arse kicked
fingolfin i cant say the same thing..he was doing it becuz he could see the fall of the Noldor and didnt seem very "scared"..at all