The wizard and the wheel

[Fat middle]

This is possibly one of the most controversial pics that have appeared.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/inl/common/imageViewer/0,1050,6150,FF.jpg
What's this? is it real or only a fake? the source didn't seems too learned about Tolkien, because they cannot get the difference between Gandalf the Grey an Gandalf the White...

is it the death of Saruman? then it would have been changed to a death in the New Mill of Ted Sandyman or, as it has been suggested in many fan sites, a death at Isengard, cuz Chris Lee hasn't filmed anything at the Shire set and cuz he signed only for the first two movies.

[noldo]

I'd say it's Saruman dying in Isengard.

I wonder if Peter Jackson manages to keep the movie PG-13. ;)

[Fat middle]

who wants a PG-13 movie? ;)

[IronParrot]

NOOOOOOOOO!!!

This is bad news...

This just doesn't fit in...

Please say this is just a dream sequence or something...

[noldo]

The contract says that the LotR-trilogy has to be PG-13.

Not that any blood moss and gore would do any harm though. :D

[Eruve]

Se Michael Martinez' analysis here:
www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_...0/142.html (http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/news_0000/142.html)

[Fat middle]

Eureka!! i got it! i've just found what happened:

Brad Douriff (Grima) jumps over Christopher Lee (Saruman) and drive his knife to the wizard's back.

"hey, hey, stop", says PJ "this cannot work. Nobody is going to believe it"

"okay, i'll try to be more aggressive next time", says Douriff

"nay, nay. you cannot kill Lee only with a knife. everybody knows that you need to put a stick in his heart to kill him". "hey, Fran, we need to film again that shot at Isengard. Mckellen should wear a garlic's clove collar"

[noldo]

:lol: :lol:

!!!!!!

:D

[Darth Tater]

:lol:

I think it's either a dream or Saruman's end. I hope it's a dream but I bet it's Saruman.

[IronParrot]

Ian McKellen said that the person in the picture is neither him nor Christopher Lee. However, this doesn't eliminate the Saruman possibility (though I hope it does!) because it could just be a stunt double for the same role...

[Shanamir Duntak]

You're right on that IP... neither Lee nor McKellen are physically shaped to do this trick. Especially if there's a blue screen, that mean the wheel will probably move...

[IronParrot]

A few observations.

1. Saruman... I seem to remember he becomes "Saruman of Many Colors". If that's Saruman in the picture, killed clothed in white, what happened to the "many colors"?

2. Perhaps (and please say this is so) this is how Wormtongue kills Saruman after the Battle of Bywater, rather than the knife. However, that still doesn't explain why Saruman is clothed in white. (Or did he go back to white clothing before his appearance in Two Towers, or on his way to the Shire? I don't remember... too rusty.)

3. If this is a dream sequence, and the wizard on the wheel is Gandalf - perhaps it's Frodo's dream, not Gandalf's?

4. There's no solid evidence that this is a wizard we're dealing with here...

[Fat middle]

i also thought it could be the death of Saruman at the Shire, but after reading MM opinion i'm almost sure there won't be Scouring of the Shire, because Douriff says that Grima will only appear in the second movie. I don't think we'll have an Scoring without Grima around.

anyway, i also think that must be the double of Saruman. the "many-colours" can be put on the editing process.

[Film Hobbit]

Yeah, perhaps the many colors will be some cool CGI effect to be added in later...
Because if its not Saruman then it can only be Gandalf... and that would make absolutely NO sense.
Hmmm actuall there are several options to explain this

1. Its a dream sequence featuring Gandalf
2. They will not be dressing Saruman in many colors, just in white
3. The Many colors to be added in digitally perhaps

[Fat middle]

4. it is a fake photo to make us all go mad :p

[noldo]

:D

It could be PJ's version of Frodo's dream. But shouldn't FotR already be packed and ready to go to WETA for editing (if it isn't there already)? Isn't the filming of FotR over?

[IronParrot]

noldo, it's not shot in order.

[Michael Martinez]

The photograph is real, as far as I have been able to determine (and I know many other people have been checking). Sir Ian's failure to mention that it's a fake pretty much clinches that it's real.

I've seen the dream sequence suggested in a number of places, but I don't see who would be dreaming this or why.

And Saruman's death at the end of the second movie (if that is truly when he dies) would not necessarily mean the Scouring was out. The Scouring of the Shire was not about removing Saruman but about removing the Ruffians. The awakening of the Hobbits was the point of the chapter. Most of them didn't even know Saruman was there.

[Fat middle]

yeah, i've also seen suggested that option of an only-for-hobbits(and Ruffians) Scouring, but if you were the director, wouldn't you preserve some of the major villians for that moment? why to kill them at Isengard when they can be useful for a final climax?

[noldo]

www.theonering.net/movie/s****book/large/526 (http://www.theonering.net/movie/s****book/large/526)

Controversy... controversy...

[Strider]

I heard somewhere that it's gonna be the new death scene for saruman instead of a slit throath cause thats too gorey....i see the logic in this. slitting throath = bad impalation on a ruddy big spike through the chest = good

[IronParrot]

Like I said, I hope that's how Wormtongue kills Saruman.

[Shanamir Duntak]

I'm going to go insane with that wheel!

[IronParrot]

As am I.

[Wizard of the Secret Fire]

...and me too :cool:

[Gilthalion]

I think that Mr. Martinez is probably very close. It ties up the second movie and Saruman is not necessary for the third (cinematically speaking). If they burned the Shire set (as I vaguely remember reading), that seems to indicate a Scouring. If the wizard on the wheel is Saruman, then I imagine the wheel is in Isengard, not Sandyman's Mill.

I guess we have to remember, "it's only a movie." Or three.

The other night I read "The Council of Elrond" to my wife, and it took more than two hours! At that rate, it would take 23 or 24 movies to cover everything in the story, as Tolkien set it down. To tell the tale in three movies will require some artistic leeway. This will not be so terribly unsatisfying when viewed on the big screen!

[IronParrot]

Again - the key thing to remember:

The man in the picture is wearing WHITE.

Did Saruman switch back to white or something, even though technically he became Saruman of Many Colors in the events before his first appearance in Two Towers? (Though he'll be shown in White when Gandalf describes the confrontation between the two of them and their past history)

And in the second half of RotK, I always somehow imagined him as cloaked in brown... don't know why...

[Fat middle]

Again: they can put the many colours digitally! ;)

[Michael Martinez]

Look at the picture of Saruman on TheOneRing.Net (or any other site that carries a lot of the movie pictures -- I don't). I mean the shot of Christopher Lee from the Internet preview. Then look at the actor on the wheel again. You can see that it's supposed to be Saruman (though it's not Lee, who is in Australia).

And there is no reason to be concerned about the many colors. As has been pointed out, they can be added with CGI (although we have no guarantees he will even call himself "Saruman the many-colored" in the movies, unless John Forde said something about this).

[Darth Tater]

Lee's never in the net preview. I assume you meen the spy photo.

[Fat middle]

actually, i was told that the guy at that spy-photo-with-staff-and-without-hat wasn't Lee: he was his double (this comes from the spy that got that photo for TOR.N).

Anyway, he's Saruman and the same as in the new photo-with-wheel-and-without-hat :p

[Gilthalion]

Actually, I'm rather glad of these spoilers! This way, I will know something of the differences from the story as Tolkien told it. Thus, I will be braced against the jarring (and not so jarring) changes and will be able to enjoy the movies for what they will be: a cinematic adaptation of a great epic. Liberties of this sort will be taken, must be taken, and must be endured. Nevertheless, it seems that the screenplay (not to mention the screenVIEWS) will be faithful "in spirit."

Cheer up! It could be far worse!

[noldo]

I agree. Eventhough the stuff about Arwen really drives me close to the edge, it could be far worse.

I think we should trust Peter Jackson on this.

[Shanamir Duntak]

Hey Noldo!, That's me who's supposed to say that! Yeah, let's trust Peter on this.

And for the many colours, let's close the subject once for all. Did you EVER see a fabric that reflects EVERY colours the way it's described in LOTR? NO, it's impossible, that fabric was MAGIC. So the many colours WILL be added by CGI. That's sure. SURE.

But let's trust Peter on this, he knows what he's doing :p

[Eruve]

IIRC, Gandalf says he could only tell the fabric was many-coloured when he looked at it up close. From a distance it looked white.

[Strider]

very good point. Argh this picture is gonna be the death of me!

[noldo]

I thought that Saruman's cloak looked white only because it was a foggy morning (or so I pictured it). The cloak reflects all the colors surrounding it and then merges them down to one canvas. In the darkest night it is black and dark and in the rays of sun it shimmers like gold and silver. :)

[Eruve]

Well, it seems as if there are two pertinent quotes (at least, maybe there's others). The first one is from "The Council of Elrond" chapter where Gandalf describes his capture by Saruman: "I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered." That's the reference I was thinking of in my above post.

Then there's this from "The Voice of Saruman": "...an old man swathed in a great cloak, the colour of which was not easy to tell, for it changed if they moved their eyes or if he stirred." This one doesn't seem to imply Saruman's cloak looked whte at first glance, as the other quote does. In any case, I'm sure there'll be some CGI involved.

[Shanamir Duntak]

All colors added gives you White. Maybe that's why Gandalf first tought it was white.

[noldo]

But wouldn't it be easier if the cloak would be originally coloured gright green or blue?

[Shanamir Duntak]

I don't think so... You need to have the green or blue only if you wnat to completely delete that part from the movie. I don't think they'll do a totally new cloak, they'll just modify the one they already have on film.

[anduin]

I disagree, if Saruman is to have a robe of many colors it will be a costume piece, not something that will be altered through a CGI process. It would be less time consuming and the result would be superior, IMO.

[Michael Martinez]

So many pictures to keep up with. :)

Thanks for the correction.

[Michael Martinez]

BTW, I don't know what it's called, but there is in fact a fabric which shimmers and seems to have all the colors of the rainbow. I believe I've seen a white variation of this fabric used in some wedding dresses. I don't know if the effect would be picked up by a camera for a movie.

[Gilthalion]

I seem to recall (being at work, I can't reference it) that in the discussion between Saruman and Gandalf, Saruman talked of how White might be "written over."

I think that those who suggest that computer generated effects might be "written over" a white fabric are on the right track. (I think this more for sentimental reasons than logical ones, I'm afraid, though reason does apply as you will read.)

For one thing, I like the parallel. I humbly think that Saruman would have enchanted his white robes to break the white light that should be reflected. It would be more Elvish to create a material that does this freely on it's own. Saruman's mind does not work that way. He would rather MAKE it happen than LET it happen.

There are prismatic materials that will refract (bend and break) light, and fabrics might be made or coated with such. This is a subtle effect that one had to be close enough to see, especially in a dark keep. But if we are to see a flashback during the Council of Elrond, and if this subtlety is incorporated into the movie, then I expect that the effect would be a bit TOO subtle for the screen. (Particularly the video screen...) The effect would have to be enhanced for the viewers, even on the big screen, perhaps with a tight close-up.

Fine details can be brought to the reader's attention by the author, but the cinematographer has to SHOW them! This is an important point for the purist, because it symbolizes Saruman's fall from wisdom, when he breaks the White to become "Saruman of Many Colors."

I expect, for all these reasons, unless the camera work is very clever and such a fabric has been used, that the effect will be computer generated.

Unless, of course, this nuance has simply gone the way of Bombadil, numerous songs, and a gentle Arwen! All shall be revealed in time...

[Shanamir Duntak]

I guess you're right Gil

Such a fabric would probably be too subtle. I told you, it will be CGI. Don't ask, it's intuition.

[anduin]

MM, the fabric that you are thinking of is iridescent. If a white iridescent fabric is used, it would be completely washed out I believe and normally has a very subtle effect. There are some fabrics that are halographic, that would produce a more intense effect. These are what I believe Gil is referring to. Now that I have a better grasp on what you are were talking about before....made a bit clearer by Gil's post, I am inclined to think that you all may be closer on track. There is a limit to what a fabric can do, and both of the fabrics that I mentioned would be reliant on a light source. More than likely there will be a need for CGI to lend a helping hand. Good call to whomever said it first. :)

[Shanamir Duntak]

Fat middle said it first

But just think of the TIME it will take to do the CGI! That's no little task. we're talking about something big.

[Strider]

i agree i dont think they would use CGI for time,money reasons etc. plus i think if they did that it would look to extravagant, its just not worth it for the sake of some clothes. (imho)

[Shanamir Duntak]

I didn't said they wouldn't use it... I think they will, but it's a big job to do so... Just wanted to make my thought clear about that...

[Eruve]

According to <a href=http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/news_0000/174.html>Michael's site</a>, the photo may be a set-up.

[Shanamir Duntak]

Hope it's true (that it's a fake).

But i'm betting my money that the fake is, in fact, the "anonymous" e mail... Why go in such lenght? Just to create discussions about the movie? humm... not sure about that

[Eruve]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time I've seen that kind of PR. It's supposed to get people talking and thinking about and anticipating...

[Shanamir Duntak]

I know... I don't remember in wich thread I started this idea but I was saying that all we heard could be disinformation... Arwen's role expanded, Tom being out... etc. That would just add to the rest. Anyway, I think that this one is not a fake... but honestly I would like it to be a fake, As I'm not sure I'd like that new death of Saruman...

[Fat middle]

May Eru hear you, Shan/b] ;)

the news sites are again debating news about the infamous pic. i've found this in a long article in TOR.N:
If you pause to think about it, it’s clear that this spiked wheel incident is a bit of physical comedy that pays homage to Lee’s remarkable oeuvre as Dracula from the glory days of the Hammer Studios. It must have seemed funny to PJ to have Dracula get a stake through the heart one more time. I wonder that the fan sites didn’t pick up on this immediately.
man, i feel robbe