Who is Sifo-Dyas?

[emplynx]

Originally posted by Arathorn
What remains to be known is who is this Cipher Diaz who went to Kamino about 10 yrs prior to Ep. II.
My friend speculated this, I will try to explain:
He thinks that the Cipher Diaz guy is the same a Dooku. Obi-Wan thought Cipher Diaz was dead similar to the way that Luke though his father was dead. He thinks that Dooku made the clones so he and Palpatine could take over the universe. He believe that Dooku joined the rebellion so that he could wipe them out. If he joined the enemy he could be able to know where they are. Is this making sense??

[Ben]

I thought in the interest of more focused discussion, we could branch out the issues brought up in the review thread.

Who is Sifo-Dyas, the Jedi Master that the Kaminoans say placed the order for the clones?

He died around 10 years earlier, which is also the approximate time of TPM. Who else died then? Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul. We know that there was no one named Sifo-Dyas on the council in TPM, so either he left before that or the Kaminoans were misinformed.

The obvious answer would be Sidious, especially considering that the character was originally named "Sido-Dyas." But was the change to avoid confusion or make it less obvious? And did Sidious kill the real Sifo-Dyas and steal his identity, or was there any real one at all?

An intriguing theory I heard is that it's Qui-Gon. He placed the order and then couldn't ever come back, because obviously he's dead. Qui-Gon was Dooku's apprentice, so maybe it was as a favor for him, and he didn't realize that Dooku had crossed over to the dark side. Yoda and Mace definitely look like they know Sifo-Dyas's identity, but are concealing information from Obi-Wan. I'm not sure I buy the theory, but it sounds cool.

[Arathorn]

That's one of the posibilities I'm contemplating, emplynx.

It does not, however, remove the possibility of Darth Sidius himself or Darth Maul. '

I guess that's what we need to wait 3 yrs for...:(

[Arathorn]

That IS a cool theory! Very, very possible too. It goes along with Qui-gon's penchant for independent thinking as well.

Are Sifo and Sido brothers? (Or even twins?)

[gdl96]

This whole situation is very confusing, and Harry Knowles's new Episode II review does a very good job at explaining it to the fullest extent (obviously, some information is just not known yet). It helps clear up the whole Dooku thing as well.

Explaing the points of the battle:

What is the goal of the battle? Well if you want to be a dictator, you pit two sides that you are allies with fight, with your enemy in the middle. The goal of this whole conflict was multi-fold.
1) Put Palpatine in position to assume War Powers, thus effectively making him a dictator.
2) Put the clone army at Palpatine’s fingertips.
3) Killing as many Jedi as possible in the crossfire, thus crippling their abilities to adequately uphold the law of the Republic.
4) Test the strength and weaken the Jedi. Watch how they respond and look for weaknesses.


Explaining the plot in terms of a James Bond movie:

This chapter of the STAR WARS saga is essentially the James Bond film to end all James Bond films. James Bond is divided into two characters. Obi Wan and Anakin. M is Yoda, who sends Obi Wan to handle the mystery of the dart and Anakin to safeguard the babe. Now contrary to 90% of the James Bond movies, M (aka Yoda) doesn’t tell Bond, "The guy you’ll be investigating is _____, you’ll find him at ________, your job is to ________ him and take control of _________." Hell, Yoda doesn’t even know that there is A) The Evil Master Plan, B) Giant Armies Massing, C) That getting the Senator off Coruscant is playing directly into the Evil guy’s hands.
I love that Scaramanga (aka Dooku) isn’t revealed all along. That he isn’t playing cat and mouse with Bond (aka Obi Wan) throughout the whole film. Instead Obi Wan’s mission is to catch OddJob/Jaws/Donald ‘Red’ Grant (aka Jango Fett) and bring him in for questioning. He doesn’t even know who this guy works for. Hasn’t a clue that by following him he’ll find himself at the big SPECTRE meeting with the big round table listening to how they are going to overthrow M and all his double O agents. Meanwhile the other Bond (aka Anakin) is all emotion. He’s the Bond trying to lay his lady down. Protect her from on top. Problem is, she is resistant to his charms. She finds Bond (aka Anakin) too cocky and sure of himself to start with, and only when Bond drops his pretension and begins communicating to her and exposing himself emotionally, does she begin to let him in. Then, of course when all the Bond information (Padme Safe/Bad Guys here) is sent to M, he sends all the agents, while M goes off to get the entirety of the British Armed Forces to lay waste to the enemy.
There is no victory though because it turns out that the Prime Minister is actually Blofeld disguised to look like Tony Blair, the man that M allegedly ultimately reports to.
What’s the point? The point is for this democracy to be turned into a dictatorship, those that protect the sanctity of the government and the ideals that keep it free… MUST BE ELIMINATED. That is the Jedi. If the Emperor reveals himself, his power ebbs. Hidden, behind the scenes, you control and push both sides of the chess match. If you control both sides long enough, you win. This is brilliant TAKE OVER THE UNIVERSE STRATEGY!

got to aintitcoolnews.com for more

[BeardofPants]

I bet you anything you like, that it's not going to be that obvious. George has never failed to surprise me yet. However, the Qui Gon Jinn theory does have its merits. He WAS the Padawan of Dooku, so there is a definate link there. Interesting.

[azalea]

I guess my theory at this point is that Dooku used Sypher-Dias (or whatever)'s identity to order the clones, so no one would end up knowing who really did it, and Jango was lying.
Who was the guy at the beginning with Padme? Was he the guy with the patch, or was he one of the clones, or did he just look similar? I wasn't sure if he was a bad guy in disguise or a good guy that just looked like one of the bad guys.

[BeardofPants]

<beam>

They're both NZ actors. :D

One is samoan, and the other is maori.

Completely different, trust me.

[azalea]

I'm definately going to have to see it again to get all these characters straight!

[gdl96]

The guy with the eye patch is Captain Typho. He's the new Captain Panaka.

[Comic Book Guy]

I think I read somewhere that Typho is Panaka's nephew.

[Wayfarer]

Hmmm...

Qui-Gon is a Shiskebob, and Darth Maul is mincemeat, so I'd say that those two are ruled out.

Palpatine operates under the Sidious Moniker, and Count Dooku used the 'lord tyrannus' to hire Jengo Fett, so I'd say that those two are somewhat unlikely.

Although, personally, I'd hope it's qui-gon, myself. Liam neeson is cool.

[Arathorn]

After a 5th viewing, I noticed that after the shot of Anakin beheading ther 3rd Tuskan and next scene cuts to Yoda talking to Windu about Anakin's pain, I hear Quigon's voice from Episode I where he calls "Anakin!" which I think was when he first duels Maul in the desert of Tattooine.

Any chance of Quigon's spirit desperately trying to stop Anakin from going on the path to the Dark Side?

[BeardofPants]

I wondered who said that!

[emplynx]

Originally posted by Arathorn
I hear Quigon's voice from Episode I where he calls "Anakin!" which I think was when he first duels Maul in the desert of Tattooine.

Yeah, I read that in the USA Today a few days ago and I noticed it on my second viewing.

[Sween]

Sifo dias was origionally an unknow person but for some reason lucas decided to change the name slightly to avoid complicating it. I dont have a clue where qui gon is going to play into this. very intresting that he never disapread upon death like obi wan and yoda.

Anakin says one day he will learn to stop people dieing. maybe sidious knows how to stop people dieing and brought qui gon back to life!

bit far fetched i know but i feel he will have to play into this sumhow.

[Arathorn]

On stopping people from dying, maybe it happens by his act of killing the Emperor, hence ending the Empire and war (of course after helping it along for some 30 to 40 yrs).

Pretty much the same with bringing balance to the force.

[BeardofPants]

Depends on your definition of "balance". It could also be taken to mean balancing the good by introducing the evil into the galaxy. Yeah, I know, doesn't really wash, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway... 2am, can't sleep.... :(

[Sween]

i never understood this balance thing. Is balance equal parts it seemed that it was all in favor of the light side of the force

[emplynx]

I believe he bring balance by being in the dark side.
-10 + 10 = 0
Ph 1 acid + Ph 13 base = Neutral

[Sween]

right im not even gonna try and understand that

[BeardofPants]

What's there to understand? By bringing/helping to bring the dark side to the fore, he is counterbalancing to good side, ie like the scales of justice.

Of course, it could be that he brings balance by destroying first the good side, and THEN the bad side (Jedi massacre (pure speculation here), and then the Emperor, and being "saved".)

OR, it could be that he brings balance by having Luke and Leia. Both of which act in the rebellion in a HUGE way. Luke by saving Anakin, and Leia by acting as the catalyst, and helming the rebellion....

[Arathorn]

Well, if he kills most of the Jedi, what are left are Yoda and Obi Wan for the good side and him and th Emperor on the Dark. The first 2 join with the force and he kills the Emperor and then has a change of heart and joins the force as well.

Perhaps it could be that most of the force (residing in midichlorians) is now (except for Luke and Leia) liberated from any controlling Jedi or Sith to spread from living thing to living thing.:confused:

[azalea]

When they bagan talking about that balance in Epi I I immediately thought that too -- the scales seemed tipped to the side of good guys, so balance would mean tipping it toward the dark side. So I thought why would they want to train a guy in the Jedi arts who has that as his destiny? Then I thought well maybe they hoped to mold him to the good side before the dark side could claim him. These were just my random thoughts on the matter. I had also thought of the Luke/Leia thing, but I han't thought about the killing of the Emperor -- that's a good theory. But that still doesn't go with what I would see as "balance". Hmm.

[Elvellon]

Interesting theory about balance. But the Force is not just the Jedi, they are “only” wielders of the Force. The Jedi may work towards the Light side, but were their influence upon the Republic so pervasive that it made it clearly unbalanced towards the Light side?
For what I saw in the movies I’m under the impression that that is not the case. Even with their numbers they seem to be hard pressed to avoid the Republic fall into anarchy.

[azalea]

Very good point -- I think you're right, it means all of the
Universe, not just the Jedi.

[Ocarina654]

Nononono! you got it all wrong...! Vader brings the force back into balance by killing the all powerful Emperor, and by returning to the Light Side at the same time. This destroys the Dark Side at sets the force into balance because now there is no more fighiting, no more evil. Now because there is only one 'team' one the force, its balanced. Now because there is no Dark Side fighting aginst them, all the Good jedi have it balanced. Its kinda like one of those common sence things.... :) no im just kidding. But really thats how it is with the balance.

on the Sifa-Dias note. If it was Qui-Gon, well that wouldn't work. it was one SIFA-DIAS not Qui-Gon Jinn! We'll just have to wait and see exactly who it is. Though if it WAS Qui-Gon that would be quite interesting!

[elendili]

on the Sifa-Dias note. If it was Qui-Gon, well that wouldn't work

It wouldn't work coz Obi-wan seemed to know who Sifa-Dias was so it couldn't have been Qui-Gon who was his master.

There can't be balance if there's only one side, its like a see-saw if all the weight is one side the saw tips, the good and dark side have to be evenly balanaced to bring balance. I reckon Anakin had to go to the dark side to make eveything balanced coz he's so powerful he is equivilent to several Jedi on the good side

[Earniel]

I thought count Dooku used the name of the dead Sifo Dyas to convince the Kaminoans they were building the clone army for the republic. Jango Fett was hired by a guy called Tyranus and at the end Darth Sidous calls count Dooku Tyranus. So I think Dooku arranged everything to get Darth Sidious an army.

[Wayfarer]

Another thought- What if sifo-dyas is who count dooku was before he left the jedi order?

He's supposed to be dead... but then again, so was anakin. What if he slipped off and took another name?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Another thought- What if sifo-dyas is who count dooku was before he left the jedi order?

He's supposed to be dead... but then again, so was anakin. What if he slipped off and took another name?

Perhaps. But Obi Wan appeared to know him as Count Dooku, and he had a pretty public persona.

[Jediknight]

My thought is that the balance is the jedi who will restore peace and the chosen one is luke, so the council are misstaking.

[rohirrim TR]

My thought is that the balance is the jedi who will restore peace and the chosen one is luke, so the council are misstaking.

Actually Anakin brought balance to the force, after his betrayal the jedi were whittled down to two Jedi and two Sith = balance after Vader's death and the Empreror's death, the force was no longer in balance. Fast forward 30 years and the jedi under Luke have repopulated again the force is no longer in balance, the last SW book I read is basically the rise of Jacen Solo as the next sith lord who will bring the force into balance again. I'm sure you can all see the vicious circle here. :evil: :rolleyes:

[me9996]

Of chorse one theory that has not been brought up is that perhaps the jedi are not the good guys but insted trying to acheve balance.

That would explain why the sith (Defanate bad-guys) are such a threat, why the jedi side of things is never refered to in the movies as 'the light side', and why the jedi are never the agressors.

I kinda like this theory becuase that would mean there would be light-side wielders, likely mistaken for sith due to their agressive pursuit of ending the sith.

(Realy that doesn't work that well)

[rohirrim TR]

Of chorse one theory that has not been brought up is that perhaps the jedi are not the good guys but insted trying to acheve balance.

That would explain why the sith (Defanate bad-guys) are such a threat, why the jedi side of things is never refered to in the movies as 'the light side', and why the jedi are never the agressors.

I kinda like this theory becuase that would mean there would be light-side wielders, likely mistaken for sith due to their agressive pursuit of ending the sith.

(Realy that doesn't work that well)
Well the'yre both trying to achieve balance. Its like Obi-Wan says "it all depends on your point of view". In terms of a story there has to be a good guy/bad guy, but ultimately they're saying there is no such thing; there is simply the attempt to find balance, the yin and yang.

This is the deeper meaning in SW, its beyond good and evil, it totally fits this post modern world we live in, now the whole pattern is more visible in the EU, but given how the force is a blend of eastern tao, and Aurelius's LOGOS I would say thats where Lucas was going.

If you look at the entire history (of SW) you see this vicious circle, the Sith come to power and dominate then the Jedi destroy the Sith, or almost destroy them, then the sith come back, as far as I can tell the force was only in balance for the few hours that only two of each order existed.

[ayra]

Well, you know this all depends on your point of view... So, Qui-Gon could have gone undercover and gotten the Kaminoins(sp) to make a Clone Army. If I remember correctly, Qui-Gon could have been on the Council except for the fact that he was too unpredictable. He did not always follow the Council's orders. I'm just thinking in my own little box over here. :D

[hectorberlioz]

I think Jabba was Sifo-Dyas. There's no other logical explanation.

[ayra]

I think Jabba was Sifo-Dyas. There's no other logical explanation.
Maybe there is no other logical explanation. :rolleyes:
BUT Jabba was not a Jedi and the Kaminoians said that it was a Jedi Master that ordered the clones.
I may just give up on trying to figure out who Sifo-Dyas is.

[D.Sullivan]

Qui-Gon didn't order the army. It isn't common for people to just go around buying armies, much less a Jedi who doesn't know what it's going to be used for. That I think is very unwise action, and I don't think Qui-Gon was that stupid.

Besides, when in doubt, go to Wookiepedia!

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo_dias

[ayra]

Qui-Gon didn't order the army. It isn't common for people to just go around buying armies, much less a Jedi who doesn't know what it's going to be used for. That I think is very unwise action, and I don't think Qui-Gon was that stupid.

Besides, when in doubt, go to Wookiepedia!

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo_dias

Hmmm, I did not know that... But, of course, 'tis said Wookiepedia is not always correct... Not to say that you are wrong.

[Curubethion]

Well the'yre both trying to achieve balance. Its like Obi-Wan says "it all depends on your point of view". In terms of a story there has to be a good guy/bad guy, but ultimately they're saying there is no such thing; there is simply the attempt to find balance, the yin and yang.

This is the deeper meaning in SW, its beyond good and evil, it totally fits this post modern world we live in, now the whole pattern is more visible in the EU, but given how the force is a blend of eastern tao, and Aurelius's LOGOS I would say thats where Lucas was going.

If you look at the entire history (of SW) you see this vicious circle, the Sith come to power and dominate then the Jedi destroy the Sith, or almost destroy them, then the sith come back, as far as I can tell the force was only in balance for the few hours that only two of each order existed.
This is kinda off-topic, but it's interesting. And I'd note that the Jedi and Sith are still very different. The biggest difference to note is the take on the control of emotion. Also, the fear and paranoia that led to the Rule of Two. The Sith seek power. The Jedi do not.

[rohirrim TR]

This is kinda off-topic, but it's interesting. And I'd note that the Jedi and Sith are still very different. The biggest difference to note is the take on the control of emotion. Also, the fear and paranoia that led to the Rule of Two. The Sith seek power. The Jedi do not.
*pounces* I've been waiting months for someone to reply to that post. LOL anyway

See I would say that the jedi seek power too, they can't help it, its in their blood (literally given the whole midi clorian thing) they have to seek power to get the balance and they have the most power when they are in balance so their quest for balance is a quest for power in itself.

I think their key difference is mainly the motivations each order has and where their focus is sith on personal gain where they ultimately lose their soul, jedi in giving of themselves and ultimately gaining happiness, nirvana so on.

[Quickleaf]

Sifo-Dyas was a mysterious Jedi Master who served as a member of the Jedi High Council during the last decades of the Galactic Republic.


Biography

Life

Sifo-Dyas was once a good friend of fellow Master Dooku, and had the gift of precognition. He predicted the coming war, and knew the Galactic Republic would soon face dark times.

Sifo-Dyas secretly commissioned a clone army on Kamino, ostensibly to defend the Republic. Prior to this, Dooku had left the Jedi Order, and had fallen in league with Darth Sidious. He was told by the Sith Master about Sifo-Dyas' actions, and Sidious also revealed that they could use the clone army for their own ends. As a final test of his allegiance to the dark side of the Force, Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas and took control of the project for himself. It was Sidious' true intention to use Sifo-Dyas only as a dead-end cover for Palpatine's order of a clone army.

Legacy

Dooku kept his old friend's body frozen for years until the InterGalactic Banking Clan initiated their plan to turn the Kaleesh warlord, General Grievous, into a great cyborg supreme strategist for the Separatist droid armies. Dooku used Sifo-Dyas for a blood transfusion for the General. Once Grievous' transformation into a cyborg had been successfully completed, Dooku gave him the very special gift of Master Sifo-Dyas' own blue-bladed lightsaber.

When Obi-Wan Kenobi traveled to Kamino to investigate the source of the dart that silenced Padmé's attempted killer Zam Wesell, the Kaminoan prime minister Lama Su informed Obi Wan that Sifo-Dyas had ordered the creation of a clone army on Kamino at the request of the Senate, in order to help the Galactic Republic. The Jedi Council was not aware of the order until Kenobi informed them of it after he met with the Kaminoans.

In 22 BBY, Sifo-Dyas' army was eventually revealed and used at the behest of the Galactic Republic. Three years later, it would be used to destroy the Jedi in accordance with Order 66.

-Quickleaf

[Earniel]

And this info comes from where?

[D.Sullivan]

And this info comes from where?

It's canon. Check Wookiepedia.

[Earniel]

I thought that canon only applied to what was actually shown in the movies.

[D.Sullivan]

I thought that canon only applied to what was actually shown in the movies.

Well, that's true, from a certain point of view. :p

There are actually different levels of canon in the Star Wars 'verse. It's true that this information, which can be found in the lead in book to Ep. III, Labyrinth of Evil, is of a lower level of canon than the films, but it's still canon. It's just subject to the higher levels of canon, like the films. But since it doesn't contradict anything in George Lucas' films, it's canon.

Apparently, according to Wookiepedia, George Lucas originally intended that Sifo-Dyas was simply a false identity for Sidious. But since Lucas obviously didn't use this idea for the film, as Masters on the Council did know of Sifo-Dyas and he was a real Jedi, the back story laid out in Labyrinth of Evil seems to make the most sense.

The idea that Gui-Gon could have ordered it is not bad, but I do not think Gui-Gon was that radical, personally, nor so deceptive as to do something like that under a false name. He would have at least owned up to his own actions by using his own name, I think.

If you don't like the "canon" version of who Sifo-Dyas is, I would sympathize. There are things written by people other than Lucas that would technically be canon that I think is just plain dumb and refuse to see as canon. For instance, the idea of there being creatures that are separate or "torn" from the Force and therefor aren't affected by it. That's just silly. :confused:

Check out this post at Wookiepedia on what is Canon, if you're interested.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon