Half-Elves

[Acacia]

Rereading the Silmarillion rather confused me on what is and is not considered a Half-Elf.

Let's start with Luthien. If you want to get technical, she was only half elf; her mother was a Maia. Her son Dior was half human, one-quarter elf, and one-quarter Maia. There is no record of his being offered the choice of what to be, which means either he was *not* considered a half-elf, or it doesn't mean anything; he was killed before the Valar decided to give half-elves this choice.

Then he married an elf; their daughter Elwing would have been one-eighth Maia, one-quarter human, and five-eighths elf. She *was* given her choice.

Earendil- fairly straightforward- half elf, half human. He got his choice.

Their children, Elrond and Elros, would have been- ~grabs a calculator~ -one-sixteenth Maia, three-eighths human, and nine-sixteenths elf.

Here's where I start getting confused.

IIRC Elrond's children (25/32 elf, 3/16 human, 1/32 Maia) were considered half-elves and had their choices, though as can be seen they were far more elf than human.

But Elros'? He married a human, so they'd have been 11/16 human, 9/32 elf, and 1/32 Maia. And they weren't considered half-elves, none of them got their choice.

Also, the child(ren) of Arwen and Aragorn, who for the sake of sanity and me not having to do insane amounts of math we will assume to be purely human, was.. 25/64 elf, 19/32 human, and 1/64 Maia. And didn't get their choice.

So: Is a Half-Elf someone who is at least half elf, and also possesses mortal blood?

Does the mortal have to be human, or would dwarves or hobbits work as well?

Could elves breed with dwarves or hobbits?

For that matter, could they breed with orcs who, after all, were elves initially? And would *that* be considered a half-elf? And that's a rather disturbing mental picture so I'll break off that train of thought *right* there..

[azalea]

Didn't follow all of that, but I don't think you can jump back generations to get choices, I think it's limited to what your parents are.

[Findegil]

Well it seems that here we have one of few instances were Christopher Tolkien in his tasked as an editor made a bad choice in rejecting the quote given below. I think he did so because of the children of Elrond, but we can't be sure about his reasons.
(The History of Middle-Earth; Volume 5: The Lost Road and other writings; Part Two: Valinor and Middle-Earth before the Lord of the Rings; Chapter VI: Quenta Silamrillion; look also The History of Middle-Earth; Volume 11: The War of the Jewels; Part Two: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; The Last Chapters and The Silmarillion; Chapter XXIV: Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath):
Now the Gods took counsel concerning Eärendel, and they summoned Ulmo from the deeps; and when they were gathered together Mandos spoke: 'Now he shall surely die, for he has trodden the forbidden shores.' But Ulmo said: 'For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Eärendel Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or Idril's son Turgon's daughter of the Elvenhouse of Finwë? Or being half of either kindred, which half shall die?' And Mandos answered: 'Equally was it forbidden to the Noldor that went wilfully into exile to return hither.'
Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'
The Text were the quote is taken from was the one Christopher Tolkien had to work with when he edited The Silmarillion.
That the children of Elrond were given a special doom afterwards is mentioned in the Appendices of The Lord of the Rings. In Dior's case I would say. He wasn't a half-elf. His mother was Lúthien, but after her return from Mandos she was a mortal woman and since Beren was also a mortal, Dior is naturally assumed to be a mortal as well.
But he had three children and Elured and Elurin were already lost when Manwë made his judgement. Assuming they were dad, they would have been in Mandos awaiting Mandos judgement about them. Since the Valar had a feeling for the ongoing of the history of Arda, I would think they waited with the judgement of the doom of the half-elven (Eärendil, Elured, Elurin, Elwing, Elrond and Elros) until the coming of Eärendil and Elwing, knowing that this should happen soon after Elured's and Elurin's death. (Soon enough for them to be hold in awaiting in Mandos equally if they are assumed to be mortal or immortal.).
My personal feeling is that Manwë had assumed the doom of Men to be more desirable than immortality, and that for that reason he gave the choice to the children of Elrond which normally had to be counted as Elves without any choice.

Hope this was in any way helpful.
Findegil

[Faramir]

I hate math.:D

[Tar-Elenion]

Dior was indeed a 'Half-elf'. JRRT refers to him as such in both WotJ and PoME and also notes him to be the first of the Pereldar. It is not automatic that a 'Half-elf' have a Choice. A Choice must be specifically granted or a 'half-elf' will be considered mortal. The children of Imrazor the Numenorean and Mithrellas (the forebears of Imrahil) were half-elven by blood, but no Choice is said to have been given to them.

[Eldanuumea]

I never have understood how one goes from "elfhood" to mortality. Why does Arwen have to take the doom/gift of men because she slept with Aragorn? How does marriage to a human remove the immortality from an elf?
Or does the elf...e.g. Arwen.....simply wither and die of grief when the human spouse is gone?:confused:

[Faeirex]

I think the giving up of immortality is kind of like a declaration of love- you are prepared to commit to a human enough to die for them, which is really what it boils down to. If she loved Aragorn that much anyway, would she want to go on living after he was dead? And would she want to watch him grow old(er) and die whil she remained forever young?

In the film, the giving up of her immortality was portrayed by giving him her necklace- her life is in his hands, so to speak. It probably has some deep symbolic meaning, but it is a meaning I can't be bothered to work out right now. Would really like to hear other people's thoughts on this subject.

~Fae

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Eldanuumea
I never have understood how one goes from "elfhood" to mortality. Why does Arwen have to take the doom/gift of men because she slept with Aragorn? How does marriage to a human remove the immortality from an elf?
Or does the elf...e.g. Arwen.....simply wither and die of grief when the human spouse is gone?:confused:

Arwen was not an Elf. She was a Half-elf who was allowed to choose whether to be accounted among Elves or Men in fate. Luthien Tinuviel was the only 'immortal' who was allowed to change her fate.

[Ñólendil]

Dior, Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir and one other person I forget the name of were all considered Half-elves. Dior EluchÃ*l was the first of the Half-elven.

It's really not good for much (except itself) to figure out exactly how much blood from what Race a character has in them. Lúthien was an Elf. Her mother was of the Maiar, but Lúthien was an Elf. She had Maiain power, and you could even say "Maian blood" if you want, and her fate eventually became that of Men, but she was an Elf. That's just how it goes.

What you're really asking is a question that has been brought up here several times: why weren't Elros's children given the choice? You should search for it, some people have come up with some very good answers.

[Elvet]

I thought that Elros' children didn't have a choice because he chose to be mortal - therefore all his descendents are mortals.

[Wayfarer]

What this really calls for is some experimentation...

Now, how do we go about producing a few half elves? ]: )

[Tar-Elenion]

Elros descendants did not have a Choice because they were not granted a Choice. The question might better be 'why were they not granted a Choice?'. However, since (according to the Judgement of Manwe), it was 'mortality' was 'natural' for those of mixed blood, an even better question might be 'why were Elrond's children granted a Choice?'.

[Reumandar]

Is it possible that maybe Elves can choose to be mortal or not, but mortals can't because once your there there's no turning back, unless of course Eru (who in Arda is called Ilúvatar) let's them?:confused:

[Draken]

The thought of half orcs is still troubling me. Even with the "nobody is ugly at 2 am" rule, that would have to be one HELL of a party...

[Archbob the Elder]

Elros chose to be mortal, therefore all his descendants are mortal.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Reumandar
Is it possible that maybe Elves can choose to be mortal or not, but mortals can't because once your there there's no turning back, unless of course Eru (who in Arda is called Ilúvatar) let's them?:confused:

Elves in general can not choose to be mortal, they are as bound to their inheritance as other races. The case of Luthien is the only one example in Tolkien's work of an Elf (fully Elf, that is) being permitted to choose mortality, and this was pointed out to be unique.

[Ñólendil]

Welcome to the Moot, Noble-woman!

Draken: The thought of half orcs is still troubling me. Even with the "nobody is ugly at 2 am" rule, that would have to be one HELL of a party...

I suppose there have been forced mating going on. Though (it has just come to mind), Tolkien once said that under the influence of a higher corrupt power, Men could be reduced almost to an Orkish state in a few generations and could then mate with them willingly. The method was first achieved by Sauron and was lated discovered by Saruman many Ages later.

[Artanis]

Mating with an orc, what an utterly disgusting thought! But still - the southerner friend of Bill Ferny in Bree was said to look more than half as a goblin....

[Willow Oran]

But if there's no turning back for mortals then why was Tuor counted amoung the eldar despite having been born human? And why wasn't that granted to the other human members of the family?

[Artanis]

Did the Valar count him among the eldar, or was it only the elves themselves? I believe only Eru was able to grant immortality to any human, and he never did as far as I know.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Also remember that Dior was born after Luthien and Beren came back. They were both mortal then, so Dior was born mortal.

[Ñólendil]

Tuor is named as an exception and was the only Man ever to become, essentially, an Elf. He did the opposite of what Lúthien did. There was no reason whatsoever for Tuor's immortality to be granted to "the other members of his family", unless you mean his descendants. His son was Eärendil, who was given the choice of fate, and his grandsons were Elrond and Elros, who also were given choices.

[Willow Oran]

I'm so confused. Why is it that Elrond's children had a choice between mortality and immortality, while Elros's children didn't? It doesn't make sense to me.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Tuor is named as an exception and was the only Man ever to become, essentially, an Elf. He did the opposite of what Lúthien did. There was no reason whatsoever for Tuor's immortality to be granted to "the other members of his family", unless you mean his descendants. His son was Eärendil, who was given the choice of fate, and his grandsons were Elrond and Elros, who also were given choices.

Where is it said that Tuor became an Elf, and thereby became immortal? Letters or HoME? The Sil says he sailed into the West with Idril, and leaves their fate unknown.

[Ñólendil]

I'm so confused. Why is it that Elrond's children had a choice between mortality and immortality, while Elros's children didn't? It doesn't make sense to me.

It baffles many people. I don't know myself.

Where is it said that Tuor became an Elf, and thereby became immortal? Letters or HoME? The Sil says he sailed into the West with Idril, and leaves their fate unknown.

I thought it was said in The Silmarillion, but is is certainly made clear in the Letters.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Willow Oran
I'm so confused. Why is it that Elrond's children had a choice between mortality and immortality, while Elros's children didn't? It doesn't make sense to me.

It is certainly a good question.

Perhaps one may see it this way: Mortality was given as a gift to Men, so being a Man may have been considered a better fate than being an Elf? Elros and his descendants did after all live more than 400 years before their decay began. It seems to be a life long enough.

[Reumandar]

Originally posted by Ñólendil

I thought it was said in The Silmarillion, but is is certainly made clear in the Letters.

it does say so in the silmarillion, in the end of "Of tuor and the fall of gondolin" it say's

But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate was sundered from the fate of Men

but then again it might not count since it was "sung"

[Artanis]

but then again it might not count since it was "sung"

Yes, I need a more clear statement than this one.
Seems like I have to read the letters. Soon.

[Ñólendil]

I'll save you the trouble, from letter #155: Tuor wed Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way.

Apparently you will get no more definite statement than that found in the Silmarillion.

[Artanis]

I'll save you the trouble
It won't be any trouble, only pleasure. :) But thanks.


Apparently you will get no more definite statement than that found in the Silmarillion.
OK, so it's clear that it's unclear. :)

[Tar-Elenion]

JRRT seems to actually confirm it a little later in the cited letter:
"Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."

Note JRRT states that Tuor was altered by Eru.

[cian]

"Elrond chose to be among Elves. His children -- with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was CelebrÃ*an dtr. of Galadriel -- have to make their choices." JRRT

Hmmm.
:)

[Christiana]

er..well..the neklace arwen wore was,literaly,"the Evenstar"and the symbol of her immortality.

[Ñólendil]

er..well..the neklace arwen wore was,literaly,"the Evenstar"and the symbol of her immortality.

Is this said anywhere in a book? It certainly seems to be behind the concept of Peter Jackson's Fellowship, but I don't remember reading that.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Artanis
Mating with an orc, what an utterly disgusting thought! But still - the southerner friend of Bill Ferny in Bree was said to look more than half as a goblin....

Hey! Don't knock it till you've tried it! :p

The necklace in the movie?

A cheap substitute for the elfstone glorfindel left on the bridge.

Arwen and Aragorn plighted their troth in lorein, but nothing official was going to happen until Aragorn became king of both the southern and northern realms.

And damnit you know she gave the damned necklace she was wearing to the ringbearer anyway!

[Ñólendil]

I thought she gave him a white stone?

[Blackheart]

Yes... A white stome necklace.... her place in the boat- you know?

She gave it to Frodo.

Aragorn got the elfstone, the elessar, from Glorfindel, which also by the way had "magic" powers.... It was apparantly one of two made by Celebrimbor and had "powers" supposedly associated with healing...

Aragorn was already a dunaden, at the time fellowship is formed he is about 80 years of age, if memory serves. I don't think he would either accept, nor want, any hint of immortality, especially since he was Elindil's heir... that whole little problem of the alkalabeth?

[Ñólendil]

You must be tired. I think by "Glorfindel" you mean "Galadriel".

And what do you mean "Aragorn was already a Dunadan"? Wasn't he a Dúnadan the day he was born?

As for the Elfstone story, I do have a recollection of that. I think that idea that Gandalf brought it back from the Blessed Realm is more acceptable though, as the Celebrimbor idea involved Celebrimbor of Gondolin. As you know in the Lord of the Rings Celebrimbor was a Fëanorian. Something strange about that Gandalf ... he served Manwe and Varda, but his character is so much like Nienna, and he has certain powers (from which he seems to have gotten his Quenderin name) that really go along with Irmo, and he brings the Elessar back to Middle-earth from Yavanna!

[Blackheart]

BAh. Yes I am tired and anyway- he didn't get it from Arwen no matter which version you want to cleave to.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Blackheart

Hey! Don't knock it till you've tried it! :p
Some things are better left unexplored. Besides, I'm already married. ;)

Yes... A white stome necklace.... her place in the boat- you know?
So, the necklace was given to Frodo by Arwen, and at the same time she told him that he may go to the West if he wished, when the time was due. But the gem was meant as a gift of memory and aid in troubled hours, and not actually as a symbol of a 'place in the boat'. After all, both Sam and Bilbo went, as Ringbearers, and it was as a Ringbearer Frodo was admitted into the West.

[Nurvingiel]

How does the Choice work exactly? For example, did Arwen actually make the choice with Aragorn right before the Fellowship set out from Rivendell? What was the significance of Arwen giving Aragorn her pendant?

You know you're confused when all your sentances end with question marks.

[Artanis]

There is no rule regarding the choices, the cases are all special.

In the book, Arwen made her choice almost 40 years before the journey of the Fellowship, when she and Aragorn plighted their troth(sp?) upon Cerin Amroth in Lorien. Her choice became irreversable when Elrond sailed over sea.

I think it is suggested that her twin brothers Elladan and Elrohir for some reason were admitted to delay their choice.

[Christiana]

i remember reading about her neclace somewhere:rolleyes:

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Artanis

So, the necklace was given to Frodo by Arwen, and at the same time she told him that he may go to the West if he wished, when the time was due. But the gem was meant as a gift of memory and aid in troubled hours, and not actually as a symbol of a 'place in the boat'. After all, both Sam and Bilbo went, as Ringbearers, and it was as a Ringbearer Frodo was admitted into the West.

She didn't give him the necklace as a symbol of her place on the ship, however that's what it symbolizes in the book, a sort of trading of places.

If you think about it, Luthien and Tour could be construed as "trading", though of course only if you view Mandos as a sort of bean-counter.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Blackheart
She didn't give him the necklace as a symbol of her place on the ship, however that's what it symbolizes in the book, a sort of trading of places.
Hm. I re-read the actual passage in the book and I suppose it can be understood like you say, just that I never did and still does not. When Arwen says: 'in my place you shall go, Ringbearer', I don't see it as trading of places, only as a statement of facts. Frodo is a Ringbearer, so he is allowed to sail into the West. Besides, the necklace is never mentioned as a symbol of immortality in the book.

[Blackheart]

No, it would be a tad unsubtle to come right out and say it.

But I suppose it is a matter of interpretation.

[Reumandar]

Originally posted by Ñólendil


As for the Elfstone story, I do have a recollection of that. I think that idea that Gandalf brought it back from the Blessed Realm is more acceptable though, as the Celebrimbor idea involved Celebrimbor of Gondolin. As you know in the Lord of the Rings Celebrimbor was a Fëanorian.

didn't Celebrimbor live in Nargothrond?

[Ñólendil]

Yes, in my opinion, yes. That's my point. In the Lord of the Rings Celebrimbor is "descended from Fëanor", and the story that developed included his sojourn in Nargothrond, and he never lived in Gondolin. He was not of Fingolfin's people, but was Fëanor's grandson. Therefore the story about the Elessar being made by Celebrimbor of Gondolin should not be accepted.

But I suppose it is a matter of interpretation.

No, you're right Blackheart. Tolkien says in a letter or two that Arwen gave Frodo her place.

[Beruthiel]

I know Tolkien might have said Arwen gave away her place, but - I see it more as (....especially after reading the Appendixes carefully) - that she really thought about sailing back. There WAS another ship, as I recall, that Legolas and Gimli took, but - I think she was too distraught to think of finding out about it.

I think she felt shame when she thought of going back on her promise to Aragorn, and in the end, did the "noble" thing.

The necklace and the Elessar being mixed up in the movie made me cringe. I wish they'd just stick to the facts!

:confused:

[Ñólendil]

There were indeed still ships left in the Grey Havens in the Fourth Age, for not everybody left at the end of the Third. But the ship Gimli and Legolas took was built by Legolas, not the people of CÃ*rdan.

[Bertuthiel]

Wow, didn't Legolas turn out to be the crafty one! Cool. Thanks for that info!

[Michael Martinez]

Arwen did not exactly give away her place. Tolkien explains in at least one of his letters (two, I think) that Arwen would have consulted with Galadriel and perhaps Gandalf, who in turn would have asked the Valar that special dispensation be granted to Frodo and Bilbo.

By the time Arwen bestowed her gift upon Frodo, the decision to allow him to pass over Sea (if he desired) had been made by higher powers than the Queen of Gondor and Arnor.

[Archbob the Elder]

Originally posted by Willow Oran
I'm so confused. Why is it that Elrond's children had a choice between mortality and immortality, while Elros's children didn't? It doesn't make sense to me.

It makes perfect sense. Elrond chose to be elf, therefore his children are young as long as he stays in middle-earth, but they may choose to go with him when he leaves or to grow old and die.

Elros chose to be human and therefore all his descendants must live with that decision.

So by Mathematical formula:

M(e)=I/k+g(l)^P(e)

Get it?

[Willow Oran]

Yes I get it, and it makes sense. I just don't like it.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
How does the Choice work exactly? For example, did Arwen actually make the choice with Aragorn right before the Fellowship set out from Rivendell?

Her choice to becomes final when Elrond leaves middle Earth for Aman.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Welcome to Entmoot Lefty Scaevola.
:)