Who really authored LotR?

[Entlover]

I've nearly finished Tolkien's Letters (which I highly recommend) and in '71 he wrote:
A few years ago I was visited by a man . . .who had been much struck by the way in which many old pictures seemed to him to have been designed to illustrate the LotR long before its time. He brought one or two reproductions.. . When it became obvious that, unless I was a liar, I had never seen the pictures before and was not well acquainted with pictorial Art, he fell silent. . .looking fixedly at me. Suddenly he said "Of course you don't suppose, do you, that you wrote all that book yourself?"
I think I said:"No, I don't suppose so any longer." I have never since been able to suppose so.

Do you think Tolkien and his visitor were right? That he had the same kind of help in writing LotR as Frodo had in completing his quest?

[azalea]

I've never read Letters, and I'm not sure of what kind of answer you are looking for, but I guess it could be said that yes, any time we do anything (creative or otherwise) we are "helped" by our past experiences, the things we've been exposed to, and by the people who influence our lives.

[Ñólendil]

I think maybe Entlover is getting at something a little more spiritual. My answer would be "yes".

[azalea]

Okay, I wasn't sure, but my answer in that case would be yes as well.

[Tar-Elendil]

my opinion, yes. But not like Harry Potter;)

[Faramir]

NO.

[Findegil]

If you like to have more evidences for such "aid" read The Notion Club Papers in The History of Middle-Earth volume IX: Sauron Defeated.
It is hard to explain such foresight of events in the future as Tolkien shows there with out such "aid". Of course it can be also only a case of chance, but it is at least strange in comparison of the mean theme of the story (time-travel).

Cheers
Findegil

[BeardofPants]

Yes. He plagiarised from the Red Book of Westmarch. :p

[IronParrot]

And it was an unauthorized translation. I can hardly wait for the New International Version...

[cassiopeia]

If you are talking about God or something spritual, no, in my opinion, as I don't believe in those kind of things. I think he drew on his own experiences (like being at war) and from English, Scandinavian and Chinese legends/myths. Well, he had a bit of help from Frodo, Bilbo and some others peoples of Middle Earth.:)

[Entlover]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
[B]If you are talking about God
/B]

I'd rather talk about Eru.
Interesting responses. What I think is weird is that Tolkien predicated a world with an Author (compare Gandalf's "you were meant to find the ring, and not by Sauron" (or words to that effect) . . .and then found that he was living in the same kind of tale . . . authored by Someone Else.
Feel free to disagree.;)

[FrodoFriend]

Very well. I disagree. Strongly. :)

[Renille]

I do not really know, so I'll say...POSSIBLY. As much as I want to believe that Tolkien's ideas were pure Tolkien, it's very likely that he borrowed ideas.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Renille
I do not really know, so I'll say...POSSIBLY. As much as I want to believe that Tolkien's ideas were pure Tolkien, it's very likely that he borrowed ideas.

Borrowed? ...

He stole them! :eek:

[Lizra]

well gee, who knows? (Not me!) Then I begin to wonder, Why did he write the books? To make money, Or was this a story he conjured up that just had to come out. Was it a labor of love, or a difficult task. I dunno... I'll keep reading other emooter's interesting comments

[Entlover]

Originally posted by Lizra
[B] Why did he write the books? To make money, Or was this a story he conjured up that just had to come out.

I believe that is correct, he wrote them to fulfill his need to make a world to go with the languages he had invented, and because he couldn't find books he really liked to read.
CSLewis was supposed to write a space novel (Out of the Silent Planet, etc) which he did, and Tolkien was supposed to write a time travel novel, which he started about Atlantis (Numenore) but never finished, but incorporated part of it into LotR.


Idiots borrow, great minds steal.

[Tar-Elendil]

he wrote lotr and such to give england and europe an ancient history..he said that many times.

[Khadrane]

I'm lost. I'll just say maybe.

[osszie]

I don't know of any help from a spiritual sense:confused:
But a quote from a biography states that "Tolkien first thought of the idea of Gandalf from a painting called, surprise,surprise, The Grey Pilgrim. From viewing this picture he thought Who is he, where is he going and where has he been? and Tolkein, thank heavens, pursued these questions until he had the answers".

Afraid i cannot remember the title of the biography:confused:

Anther quote from TRotK

Sam says "I'm glad it's all over. Its like waking from some horrible dream".
Frodo "No Sam for me its like falling asleep again" Is this tolkiens way of saying that now the job (writing TLorR) is over its time to leave the land he loves,ME,and return to the humdrum real world?:confused:

[Elfhelm]

In one sense, nobody ever writes any book by himself. Pope Gregory is often depicted writing the Gregorian chants while taking dictation from an angel. It's a metaphor. Goodness, is there now a movement to take Tolkien literally?

[Entlover]

I am taking Tolkien literally when he was speaking literally. He sounds to me like he thought he had unsuspected inspiration in writing LotR, and didn't realize it until much later . . I think he was probably right, since his books have had such an enormous effect on people.
I don't think other writers have equal "inspiration" in writing, for example Hemingway wrote out of his ego, as do many many others. Tolkien was not unique, but one of a group which is not very large.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Yes. He plagiarised from the Red Book of Westmarch. :p Good point. Bilbo did write it...

[Darth Tater]

He didn't plagiarize it, he found it in his trecks through the British countryside and made it available to the world! Then he went through the long process of recording the whole history of the ages before the age of men. And yes, of course there are discrpencies between his different "drafts", things changed as he found new documents in the secret vaults in the English countryside.

[Comic Book Guy]

Bilbo did not write the Red book of Westmarch, he wrote 'there and back again' and parts of the Lord of the Rings, he translated the writings of the Silmarrilion.


In the Essay of Leaf by Niggle, he suggested he was given the gift of recording

a sudden glimpse of underlying reality or truth

He said that the ideas arose in his mind as given things.

[Wayfarer]

Absolutely, unequivocally, yes.

[Draken]

I agree with Tar-Elendil - Tolkien did say he wanted to give a mythology to the English - I think he felt that the long-term Roman occupation, supplanting much of the Celtic mythology and eventually imposing Christianity, followed by invasion from peoples with their own mythologies, left a void.

Unavoidably there are occasional overlaps with other mythologies. Saxon mythology even had its own One Ring! And Boromir's death always reminds me of that of the French legendary hero Roland.

I would interpret this as the"help" he received - a grounding in the tradition of European mythologies.

btw what kind of word is "authored"? What's wrong with "wrote"?

[sun-star]

My personal opinion is that there was no more of a spiritual element to the writing of Lotr than of any other book. I don't see why there should be anything different. Where does any author's inspiration come from? I think either all great books are 'authored' like that, or none are, and my personal leaning is towards none.

[Fat middle]

it has already been mentioned in this thread, but i think that The Notion Club Papers , (specially Part II) and The Letters are two basical sources to track the origins of LOTR. There Tolkien mentions as the oldest source of his work a dream he has had since he was a child, about a great ship arriving to land over great waves in a tempest.

In the Notion Club you can see how all his imaginary world connect with Tolkien's real life through that recursive dream.

And the question concerning to this thread is "Who made Tolkien's dreams? He himself or did he receive some 'aid'?"

[samwiselvr2008]

i think that jrr tolkien wrote the books with the help from God, who gave him the talents to write the books. and frodo's help in finishing the book was not b/c of any past experians, talents ect., he finished the quest b/c of sam!:rolleyes:

I LOVE SAM!
sorry, i new that the last part had nothing to do with the question!;)

[Rána Eressëa]

The little voices told him to do it.

[BeardofPants]

Yes, the little voices from the Red Book of Westmarch... ;)

[Rána Eressëa]

It was probably Pippin.

"Perhaps you should translate it and sell it as your own. Make some money off of it, you know. But I'll make it easy for you and tell you what the whooole story says, but only on one condition: I get a pint of Ale or each page."

[BeardofPants]

Yeah, somebody has to be the brains. :D

[Rána Eressëa]

It's the little voices that are in on everything. You may call them "muses" or something of the sort, but they definitely had something to do with it. :D

[BeardofPants]

Muses are good. Plagiarism is better. :p

[Entlover]

I agree with CBG and Samwiselv . . .
out of the mouths of babes . . .

I'm outta here.:)

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Muses are good. Plagiarism is better. :p

You do have a point there. But they are one in all the same in this case: the voices couldn't think of anything, so they told him to plagiarise. :D

[BeardofPants]

You have me there. :D

[Rána Eressëa]

Woo-hoo! For once, I have got you. I feel so honored. *bows graciously*

[BeardofPants]

Well, I could have said something to the effect that he didn't start hearing the "voices" until he'd already found the Red Book of Westmarch, and was considering whether or not to pilfer from it... the voices could have stepped in then. But I thought you'd like an easy victory. ;) :p

It's all moot anyway, unless of course, you want to help me dig up his grave to find some DNA samples... :eek: