Suite101 poll: Should Peter Jackson warn audiences

[Michael Martinez]

Sir Ian McKellen recently revealed in a radio interview that the four hobbit heroes in Peter Jackson's "The Lord of the Rings" will be smoking their pipes throughout the movies in an effort to be faithful to the literary story.

When J.R.R. Tolkien wrote THE LORD OF THE RINGS, no one outside of the tobacco companies knew how dangerous tobacco products are, or that the companies were actively promoting addiction to their products throughout the world.

If you'd like to share your thoughts on whether Peter Jackson's "The Lord of the Rings" movies should contain a warning against the hazards of smoking, Suite101's Tolkien and Middle-earth topic is running a poll through November 9.

The results will be available throughout the polling period.

It's not about being politically correct. It's about caring whether one child is influenced to take up a deadly habit because of what several stars in three bound-to-be-popular movies do. Is art worth even one human life?


www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/tolkien (http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/tolkien)

[Eruve]

I could see a warning in the end credits (as the poll suggests). It could come along with the part about "no animals were harmed in the making of this movie"...

[bmilder]

That's too bad, I had hoped that they would cut the smoking. There needs to be a warning at the end, but it might sound corny if PJ has a little segment at the end talking about it.

One problem is that the hobbits in the movie might seem like children. I don't know if they will be emphasizing that they're really adults, but because of the size, they seem almost like children (and Pippin and Merry aren't much past their teenage years, as I recall), and this is bad: A race of pipe-smoking children.

[Ghost of Gilthalion]

Great poll!

"End credits" was fine with me, but I chose, "NO."

Instead of having the producers make some syrupy little public service announcement, or having a lost disclaimer at the end, why not ask the tobacco companies to pony up for an ad against underage smoking to run during the previews? They couldn't afford not to do it. Can you imagine the publicity if they refused? Why stop with this one project? Make 'em run such ads on theatre screens and video rentals. Whatever!

In fact, lots of movies on TV, cable, theatres, lots of movies feature smoking. Why single out LORD OF THE RINGS?

Besides, pipe smoking is quite different in degree and quality from inhaling a cigarette. It would be wrong to change Tolkien's story to satisfy the current, um, enthusiasms for prohibiting behaviours and banning free expression. PC or not PC is not the question in my mind. We have a substance that should not be abused, and those who make money off of it are responsible to make certain that people are informed.

Let the tobacco industry and consumers bear the cost and effort of educating children and the public at large.

I'd rather leave Peter Jackson and Professor Tolkien out of it.




(Besides, Mr. Jackson could always let a hobbit have a coughing fit trying to best Gandalf at smokerings, or let some self-righteous elf make a snide remark or two about the nasty habbits of mortals.)

[Michael Martinez]

Why single out "The Lord of the Rings"? Because a conscious decision was made to feature a great deal of smoking AFTER the truth came out. It's one thing to pick up the book published nearly fifty years ago and see that Tolkien had imposed a personal affectation on his characters. But he probably didn't realize in the least how addictive Tobacco could be.

As for pipe smoking, it still introduces carcinogens into the body. Cancer is cancer. And inhaling smoke still damages the long. Long-term exposure to smoke regardless of the source increases the risk of various cardiopulmonary diseases.

As for the tobacco industry, for better or worse we have made our settlement with them.

And since Peter Jackson has made the conscious decision to promote smoking with what will be one of the most popular film trilogies of all time, he has fully immersed himself in the issue. He's a big boy. He doesn't need to be protected from the consequences of his own decisions.

Unfortunately, we do need to protect each other from the consequences of decisions made for us generations ago. Millions of tobacco-related deaths still lie ahead of us. We should do what we can to reduce that number.

[IronParrot]

To answer the question - definitely not.

Don't get me wrong. I'm about as against smoking as one can get, within reason. But... you don't see re-releases of Bogart movies with anti-tobacco warnings on them.

[Michael Martinez]

Of course, this isn't a rerelease of an old movie. It's three new movies, the first of which is still a year away.

Nonetheless, if people can get all riled up over minor changes to Arwen, the question of whether Peter Jackson will portray black against white, etc., etc., I think it's worth a discussion (or half dozen) to talk about an issue which actually impacts a lot of people in their lives.

Why should we have some exceptions?

[Fat middle]

good poll and topic!

should all new edited books and websites put a warning under the pics of Tolkien smoking his pipe? NO

should there be a warning in the movies? NO

why? i admit it's a difficult question but as somebody has already said: leave the warnings to the tobacco firms. i don't think we must do an exception with LOTR, i think that no movie need to do warnings about tobacco effects. Can you imagine a warning in Smoke?

[Eruve]

You have to ask the question how many people will be influenced to try smoking because they see it in a movie. Ben does have a good point about the Hobbits coming across as children, which I hadn't considered, but still... I realize seeing things in a movie and reading about them in a book are not the same thing, but in the book there's all sorts of smoking. Gandalf even says in Moria that he needs a smoke! Did reading LOTR induce me to try pipe smoking? NO! I've never smoked a pipe in my life. I don't smoke cigarettes either; and you'd better not light up in my house. All sorts of movies show drug use these days. Are there warnings against drug use? No. Do these movies influence people to try drugs? I don't know; I know they don't influence me personally to try them and they never have. Just some food for thought.

As I said above I'm not against there being some sort of warning. I do like Gil's suggestion that the tobacco comapnies put the anti-smoking ad in and not PJ. I think that makes the most sense.

[Film Hobbit]

If people haven't figured out by now that smoking is hazardous to their health, I don't think a warning at the end of LOTR is going to help.

There are tons of movie every year in which people smoke, its an important part of their character, its real, people smoke, pretending it doesn't happen doesn't make it so.

[Michael Martinez]

should all new edited books and websites put a warning under the pics of Tolkien smoking his pipe? NO

should there be a warning in the movies? NO

I hope you voted in the poll. But books and web sites have not been shown to be as influential as movies and television. There is a big difference between what Peter Jackson is presenting on the big screen and what I'm presenting on the Internet (in fact, I'm only going to reach a miniscule fraction of the people he'll reach).

why? i admit it's a difficult question but as somebody has already said: leave the warnings to the tobacco firms. i don't think we must do an exception with LOTR, i think that no movie need to do warnings about tobacco effects. Can you imagine a warning in Smoke?

We left the warnings to the tobacco firms years ago. What was the result? Millions of tobacco-related deaths and illnesses, and millions more on the way.

Do you seriously believe these companies are going to come out and tell their potential customers around the world NOT to buy their products?

[Michael Martinez]

You have to ask the question how many people will be influenced to try smoking because they see it in a movie. Ben does have a good point about the Hobbits coming across as children, which I hadn't considered, but still... I realize seeing things in a movie and reading about them in a book are not the same thing, but in the book there's all sorts of smoking. Gandalf even says in Moria that he needs a smoke! Did reading LOTR induce me to try pipe smoking? NO! I've never smoked a pipe in my life. I don't smoke cigarettes either; and you'd better not light up in my house. All sorts of movies show drug use these days. Are there warnings against drug use? No. Do these movies influence people to try drugs? I don't know; I know they don't influence me personally to try them and they never have. Just some food for thought.

Actually, there ARE warnings against drug use, or there used to be, in the theaters. And drug use isn't portrayed as safe and harmless in the movies. I don't know of any studies which have tied drug use to movies, although some organizations have argued that underground or counterculture movies do encourage drug use.

Tobacco, on the other hand, has long been portrayed as a harmless substance. It's something "cool" people use, or which people use to calm their nerves. But unlike the drug addicts who get beaten up, raped, shot, strangled, or who overdose in the movies and otherwise ruin their lives, tobacco users in the movies generally don't reveal any consequences for their use of tobacco.

Books don't influence people to take up smoking. Movies do. And these movies will be shown around the world. The anti-smoking campaigns are not conducted around the world.

As I said above I'm not against there being some sort of warning. I do like Gil's suggestion that the tobacco comapnies put the anti-smoking ad in and not PJ. I think that makes the most sense.

Unfortunately, we relied upon the tobacco companies to be honest for decades, and they lied to us. It's not in their business plans to tell people NOT to smoke.

[Michael Martinez]

If people haven't figured out by now that smoking is hazardous to their health, I don't think a warning at the end of LOTR is going to help.

There are tons of movie every year in which people smoke, its an important part of their character, its real, people smoke, pretending it doesn't happen doesn't make it so.

Would it educate the masses? No, I don't think so. But it might get people to start asking questions. The United States ships tons of poison to other countries every year. Every year our business community condemns hundreds of thousands of young people to a slow death through their addiction to tobacco products.

We should at least ask our business comunity (in this case, New Line Cinema) to be a little responsible about advocating the use of tobacco products.

If nothing else, it would be the equivalent of putting the Surgeon General's warning in a commercial for a tobacco product.

[Fat middle]

Do you seriously believe these companies are going to come out and tell their potential customers around the world NOT to buy their products?
well, i don't know in the USA, but in my country of course the tobacco companies don't put willingly the warnings, but they're forced to do it by the State.
I hope you voted in the poll.
hmmm, i think Michael has discovered i've been slacking from his site recently :p

[Darth Tater]

Smoking is an aspect of LOTR that I don't think the movies can be without. Smoke is beautifull on film and would add to the atmosphere. However, I do think a warning is appropriate.

[Film Hobbit]

It is not the job of the film industry to educate people, it is their job to entertain. If something is dangerous, it is the job of the government and the news media. Leave it to them.

Michael, you make it sound like no one knows that smoking is dangerous. I think by now pretty much everyone is aware that it is dangerous and hazardous to their health. Even IF you've had your head in the sand for the past 20 years, you have probably figured it out by now. The only question putting a warning about smoking in LOTR will get people to ask is why is my movie filled with educational advertisements? I came here to watch a movie, not hear things about smoking that every 2 year old knows!

[Elanor]

hm, interesting debate. To answer the question--why not? It would definitely make clear to people that the smoking is part of the story, but that it's not "cool" or healthy. I wonder if they'll have the scene outside the ruin of Isengard--"I had not heard that they breathe smoke from their mouths" (that quote's probably inaccurate; I don't have the book with me). I always thought that scene was cute.

I do think that the movie should include some smoking, but not an excessive amount. And a warning wouldn't hurt anyone.

[Film Hobbit]

Smoking is important to the story as the Hobbit's addiction to pipeweed (which is shared by Saruman) is indicative of their own inner weakness as a people.

[Michael Martinez]

I have to bow out of this discussion here and elsewhere, but I'll say this. The film industry has been educating people for years with the wrong information about smoking. It's time for them to take responsibility for what they've done and at least STOP. And tobacco is not critical to the story at all. It's an affectation which affords one very weak plot link between the Shire and Isengard. Any commodity could have been used. Nor does Tolkien depict the hobbits or anyone as addicted to tobacco. No one would have thought such a thing possible in the 1930s and 1940s, when the story was written.

[Film Hobbit]

Since when has education been the business of Hollywood? They have never educated people wrongly or otherwise about smoking. Usually film is a reflection of the real world. People have been smoking for hundreds of years, its no surprise that it would show up in films.

And now, people STILL smoke, even though we know its bad for your. But it still makes sense to see it in films which are only a reflection of our society. Trying to hide it won't help anything....

And educating people about the dangers of smoking really is almost a waste of time these days. Everyone knows it will kill them, you aren't going to be telling people anything they don't already know.

[Niniel]

I got to agree with Film Hobbit.
I think they should be education in schools and
parents should talk to their children about smoking.
And if there's still a person out there who doesn't know that
smoking causes cancer... I'm sorry..
So, I don't think they should have a warning in the movies.
And for the point that they should leave it out.. NO WAY...

[Shanamir Duntak]

I tend to agree with you all.... maybe a small ad done by the filming crew on how dangerous tobacco is... kind of a public message, like those before any movie, a 30 sec clip.

What do you think?

[Film Hobbit]

I think that is insane.

Again, someone please explain to me why it is the responsibility of ENTERTAINERS to educate people about the dangers of smoking?


And also, please explain to me why people need to be told that smoking is dangerous when it says right on their cigarrette packs that its going to kill them.

People are stupid, but nobody is that stupid. Just because they see Hobbits smoking in LOTR doesn't mean all the kids in the world are suddenly going to say, hey all that stuff I see about smoking killing you must not be true because I saw Hobbit's smoking pipes... BAH!

Frankly I don't want Hollywood educating our children about ANYTHING. That is our job, and if not parents, then the government. Hollywood should stick to doing what we pay them to do... ENTERTAIN us.

[Niniel]

I agree with you Film Hobbit
100 %

[Shanamir Duntak]

Well, it's was just an idea... don't get mad! :p

[Darth Tater]

Film Hobbit, calm down! No need to flame Shan! Another outburst like that will get you a 24 hour ban.

I think smoke is not necessary, but helps create the atmosphere. I don't think a warning message is necessary, but I think it would be a good thing to do.

[Shanamir Duntak]

Don't mind Tater... I really didn't take this as flame... he has his opinion, I respect that. And for the idea, it was something I thought of while writing last time...

[Michael Martinez]

Well, since I'm poking around the board today anyway, I'll point out a very serious flaw in Film Hobbit's argument.

Hollywood (or, rather, the film industry at large) engages in "education" with every movie. The movies just reflect society at large? Hardly. We don't go around performing the stunts that we see in movies, blowing up cars and buildings randomly, engaging in high-tech crimes, spying on other countries, subverting secret government organizations, falling in love with secret agents and lone wolf heroes and heroines, blah, blah, blah.

Movies sell merchandise. They always have, they always will. That is why product placement became such a rage in the 1980s and 1990s. And that is why the tobacco industry has always supported use of tobacco in the movies.

The film industry has improperly taught people that it's fun to smoke, it's okay to smoke, that it's NORMAL to smoke. That is all nonsense. Repetition of an image or idea, any image or idea, has a profound effect on the public. Way too much research has shown that to be true.

The schools are already trying to teach kids not to smoke. They fail miserably. Parents are already trying to teach kids not to smoke. They fail miserably.

You cannot put the schools and parents up against the power of the media. They get clobbered every time. Life imitates art far more than art imitates life, and that is why the film industry needs to take responsibility for the harm it has done to millions of people world-wide and at least stop protraying people as enjoying smoking, or pretending that it doesn't hurt anything or is sexy.

Most informed smokers today would quit in a heartbeat if they could. Unfortunately, the addiction is so strong many who try to quit end up going back to it.

It's time for people to stop spreading misinformation about the dangers of smoking. The film industry should at least do that much, if it's not willing to acknowledge it owes future generations a little compensation for what it's helped to do to current generations.

[Film Hobbit]

>>Well, since I'm poking around the board today anyway, I'll point out a very serious flaw in Film Hobbit's argument.

Hollywood (or, rather, the film industry at large) engages in "education" with every movie. The movies just reflect society at large? Hardly. We don't go around performing the stunts that we see in movies, blowing up cars and buildings randomly, engaging in high-tech crimes, spying on other countries, subverting secret government organizations, falling in love with secret agents and lone wolf heroes and heroines, blah, blah, blah.>>

They don't LITERALLY reflect society, rather they reflect our attitudes. Hollywood makes movies that they think people will like, this means they are trying to make movies that fit the current personality of america.... and some things ARE a specific reflection of the real world. Example: Teenage pregnancy becomes a problem, Hollywood does movies about teen pregnancy. Its not that Hollywood does teen pregnancy movies and suddenly kids start getting pregnant. It doesn't work that way.

>>Movies sell merchandise. They always have, they always will. That is why product placement became such a rage in the 1980s and 1990s. And that is why the tobacco industry has always supported use of tobacco in the movies.>>

True, but tobacco would have been in there whether or not they did. People in the real world smoke. Thus if you are making a movie, it only makes sense to have people smoke since THAT is reality, THAT is America. You can pretend it doesn't go on all you want, but that doesn't make it so... see what I mean?

>>The film industry has improperly taught people that it's fun to smoke, it's okay to smoke, that it's NORMAL to smoke. That is all nonsense. Repetition of an image or idea, any image or idea, has a profound effect on the public. Way too much research has shown that to be true.>>

It is NORMAL to smoke. A large percentage of the American population smokes, and has for several hundred years. Thus, even though it is bad for you, it is NORMAL to smoke. It is also normal to drink, and normal to have sex, thus often you will see these things in movies.

>>The schools are already trying to teach kids not to smoke. They fail miserably. Parents are already trying to teach kids not to smoke. They fail miserably.
>>

So why would films be successful? Ask any high school kid who is currently smoking if they think its bad for their health... they will invariably reply, yes, its probably killing me. They know. A corny ad in a movie will tell them nothing they don't already know.

>>You cannot put the schools and parents up against the power of the media. They get clobbered every time. Life imitates art far more than art imitates life, and that is why the film industry needs to take responsibility for the harm it has done to millions of people world-wide and at least stop protraying people as enjoying smoking, or pretending that it doesn't hurt anything or is sexy.>>


PEOPLE DO ENJOY smoking. So why shouldn't a movie reflect that? I mean we may wish they didn't, but a large portion of the people in the world enjoy smoking, so its only logical to see it in movies. I don't like the idea of only making films that reflect an ideal society. I prefer truth to some made up wannabe reality that doesn't really exist.

>>Most informed smokers today would quit in a heartbeat if they could. Unfortunately, the addiction is so strong many who try to quit end up going back to it.>>

Exactly. Most people are informed. They know it is bad for them. A little ad at the end of a movie will not do anything but give kids the idea that movies are there to teach them.... which they are not.

>>It's time for people to stop spreading misinformation about the dangers of smoking. The film industry should at least do that much, if it's not willing to acknowledge it owes future generations a little compensation for what it's helped to do to current generations. >>

They aren't spreading misinformation, however it sounds like you want them to. You want them to pretend that people dont' smoke, or that people don't enjoy smoking.. but the TRUTH is that they do smoke, and many enjoy it. To say otherwise would be a lie.


And I apologize to anyone who thought I was flaming... it wasn't a flame, just a debate, don't take it as anything else :)

[Thoric]

Are you guys all on crack?

People smoke in all kinds of movies, and Hobbits are clearly NOT children.

Things have gone way too far with making everything polically correct and non-offensive to anyone and their grandmother.

This is a fantasy story, and clearly is not a reflection of what is acceptable in society.

If you do not understand that, then you should not be allowed to watch the movie.

[anduin]

Welcome to the board Thoric. I would have to agree with you.....and to some extent [/b]Film Hobbit[/b]. People smoke. People smoke in movies. Why single out LOTR when almost every movie has some sort of smoking in it. I haven't seen it yet, but I bet even The Grinch(2000) has someone, somewhere smoking.

[bmilder]

I haven't seen it either, but you're wrong about that anduin :p

www.screenit.com/movies/2...stmas.html (http://www.screenit.com/movies/2000/dr_seuss_how_the_grinch_stole_christmas.html)

[anduin]

:lol: I have never seen anything so thoroughly picked apart in my life!

"We see people drinking at a party in a flashback, but don't know if what they're consuming is alcoholic or not."

So why do they even bring it up?

[Landroval 1st]

What ever happened to Parents? I always thought that we were the ones who were supposed to be bringing up our children and trying our best to steer them away from the harmful things in life.
I think it is time that we take a more responsible roll in childrens lives than to be debating who should be putting up warnings and disclaiminers.

[arynetrek]

first - smoking warnings -
i thought i replied to this already, guess i ddin't. i don't think they should have warnings about smoking in LotR or any movie. why? first, it's a part of the book (albeit a minor one) & cutting out all references to pipeweed would do more damage to an already wounded movie. any filmmaker who would cut out parts of the story he's filming because they're unsavory is not an artist or creator; he's a sellout. besides, smoking is a part of Hobbit culture. this is an extreme analogy, but try to imagine "hippie culture" without the constant pot-smoking. smoking may be socially unacceptable these days, but people don't go as far as to censor out the pot-smoking in That 70's Show, for example. Hobbits without pipeweed would be less Hobbit than they were before, although this will be a minor change. but if people demand some kind of warning, a dscreet public-service ad before the movie would be a well-timed idea.

second - The Grinch Ratings -

BLOOD/GORE
The Grinch knocks over a man with his evidently pungent, green breath.
The Grinch, as a baby in a flashback, loudly belches.
The Grinch holds up some mistletoe to his furry butt and states, "Pucker up," but no one attempts to kiss him there.
We briefly see some termites run across the Grinch's teeth and lips as a lyric in a song refers to just that.
Hearing the Mayor talking in his sleep about kissing Martha, the Grinch grabs Max (the dog), turns him around butt first and puts him down toward the Mayor's lips (we don't see the contact). However, we do see the dog's bug-eyed expression, him later dragging his butt along the floor and then of the Mayor with a satisfied smile on his still sleeping face."

now HOW does this count as blood & gore? crude behavior, maybe, but this is hardly worthy complaining about. anduin, i agree with you. if they can't even be sure it COULD BE seen as offensive, they shouldn't bring it up.

third - on parents -
teaching children about violence does fall to teh parents. but i think modern society is far too paranoid about violence. yes, going out & shooting up an entire town is a bad thing to do, but things like movies & video games are escapism. one of the best stress-relievers i've found is playing wonderfully gory shoot-em-up arcade games with my friends after a long week. children exposed to violence should be taught to respect it, just as children exposed to guns (i mean exposed to them for legitimate reasons - the family hunts, etc.) should be taught to respect them. violence can be dangerous, but it's a part of life that cannot be shut out completely. and i think all parents should teach their children to live in an often-violent world than to shelter them from the inevitable.

Landroval 1st - parents should take a more active role in helping their children experience & understand the world, but i don't think parents should try to shelter their children too much. parents should certainly keep their kids away from street gangs, but this world is not Candy Land & expecting it to be is naive. i'm not trying to flame, just posting my opinion.

aryne *

[lindil]

I am w/ Michael [ and Legolas and the Elves!] on this one.

People imitate their influences and if you think their won't be reurgence in pipe smoking in certain lotr circles , I believe you will be in for a suprise. If this is going to be as popular as star wars , and all indications point to it. The effect it could have on our lives here will be large -hopefully it will be as the books were -inspirational.
It would be a shame if a deadlty habit grew amongst [our youth especially ] because of our beloved
Middle-earth. I would have it downplayed but not eliminated in the movies.
After all is pipeweed less dispensible than Bombadil or Glorfindel or Sauraman's death in the Shire ?
A word at the end of the movies would not be amiss and might hopefully offer a timely corrective for a few.
lindil