A BIG problem with leaving out Bombadil...

[IronParrot]

Okay, I hope this isn't something somebody's already mentioned - I'll bet one of you has noticed this already.

Now, Bombadil was the one who first armed the hobbits at the Barrow-downs... cut Bombadil, and you've effectively cut the Barrow-downs, unless you find some extraordinarily clever way around this technicality that would probably piss off us devoted fans anyway who want to see as little change from the original as possible.

But then what of this passage from V.6 "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields" (p.141 in the Unwin paperback of RotK)?

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
So logically, if you cut Bombadil, then doesn't that nullify Merry's role in assisting Eowyn with the slaying of the Witch-King?

Of course, in the current 3-min teaser, in the shot at Weathertop, you see all the hobbits armed... but where do you get the blades from? How will they be armed, if Bombadil isn't around?

[bmilder]

Yes, I thought of this as well when I last re-read LotR. But of course, this is part of the text, and unless there's some narrator we don't know about, the text not in dialogue will be left out. So even if there was a Barrow-downs sword, it wouldn't necessarily be made clear that it was the reason that the Witch-kingl died. I guess either Aragorn arms them at Bree or maybe even Gildor gives them weapons, if he isn't taken out too.

[Eruve]

And if Merry doesn't come by his sword from Aragron or Gildor, he could very well pick one up in Rivendell.

[bmilder]

That's true, but the Weathertop scene where the hobbits are apparently armed comes before Rivendell.

[Eruve]

Oops, I skimmed over that part of IP's post... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o">
But Merry could have any sword at Weathertop, especially for all he accomplishes with it. He only needs a "magic" sword at the Pelennor.

[IronParrot]

But then he would have to gain that one somewhere. And also lose it, and get it replaced by the sword of the Barrow-downs. Losing it probably isn't a problem... I mean, if you're dragged around by Orcs for so long... but getting another sword is a problem.

[juntel]

Are swords such a rarity in that world?
"Hey!", Frodo says to Gandalf, "we'll need swords you know, to protect ourselved on our journey."
"Right on!", Gandalf says, "Was askin' myself when you halflings where going to ask me! Here, enjoy yourselves!", and he trows thems very ordinary swords, except for size.
End of problem.

Spectators won't budge a thing.

Only LotR fans *might* question that scene when they see it, but even then not most of them.

Beauty is in the details.
But that many details on screen would cost too much (would need 5 or 6 or more hours for each "book" (as published)).

In the end, we have to be content of what will be offered us.
After all, no movie can replace the magic that some writings can bring.

[arynetrek]

i mean, besides the obvious coolness factor -

the scene where he puts on the Ring & it has no power over him - i've always thought that was an important scene because it proved that there's some people in Middle-Earth who are in a way separated from the rest of the world. almost everyone else in LotR is allied on one side or the other, either "good" (fellowship) or "evil" (sauron), & Bombadil in his separateness (?) shows that not everyone is involved, or affected, or even cares. in a world as strictly divided into opposite factions as middle-earth is in LotR, there's still some people who can't even be said to be in the middle, because for them there is no conflict.

i think it's important to the story to see that, as important as the whole Ring mess is, there are some people who just aren't involved - it adds another dimension to the story.

of course this is the movie we're talking about, & people don't read as much into movies as i/we do into books.

aryne *
forgive the awful grammar, i wrote this in a hurry.

PS - i am aware of teh quote at Rivendell where Gandalf says that if the Enemy gets the Ring, then Tom too would fall - but that never seemed to even cross Tom's mind, that was Gandalf's theory. Tom lives in his own little world, & the Ring isn't part of it.

[noldo]

I think that the thing about the Ring not affecting Tom in anyway is a very important and yet a really cool factor in the book. What if they replace Tom with another character, and have him/her trying the Ring and yet not showing any symptons of disappearing.

Hmmm... I couldn't it stand if they'd leave Gildor out of the movie... :(

[IronParrot]

Leaving Gildor out would create a huge problem all on its own, because that's how Frodo is introduced to the Lay of Elbereth, which is what drives the Nazgul away at Weathertop, if I remember correctly...

[noldo]

Good point.

[arynetrek]

YOU CAN'T REWRITE BOMBADIL! HOW THE HECK CAN YOU GET SOMEONE ELSE TO TAKE OVER BOMBADIL'S VERY UNIQUE PART? AND BESIDES, WHO ELSE IN MIDDLE-EARTH'S IMMUNE TO THE RING?

<snarl>

<hiss>

<growl>

as for Gildor - he's Sam's first encounter with the Elves! and yes, he did tell Frodo the Lay of Elbereth. they could get around that (Frodo did know some of the Elven language), but i don't think they should cut Gildor.

aryne *

[RKittle]

Though I agree that Tom is an important character in Middle-Earth, his immunity to the Ring had no impact on the entire Lord of the Rings saga besides getting Frodo to wear the Ring for the first time.

Though the Ring incident may have spoken volumes about the nature of the Rings of Power and the beings of power that roamed Arda, it failed to redirect the story in any way. And as far as the movies go, it is the least important omission yet. Having Tom show that the Ring had no effect on him would only serve to confuse moviegoers.

I certainly will miss him. But everything Tom does can be circumvented, replaced or cut out and still leave us with the basic storyline intact.

Now what upsets me is that there probably won't be any Barrow-Wights in the movie :(

RKittle ... aka`

[bmilder]

Hehe, clueless fans of the movie who haven't read the book are going to stumble upon your site and demand to know: "What's the Barrow Downs??" :p

[RKittle]

Good thing The Barrow-Downs is focused on the book instead of the movies, huh? ;)

[Stiegl]

Well, I hate to say it, but if the movie execs are cutting characters such as Bombadil, Goldberry & Glorfindel, then they probably won't be including Gildor either.

[RKittle]

Actually, because they seem to be making a beeline from Hobbiton to Crickhollow to Bree, Gildor might be the vessel they use to avoid the Black Riders and get the Swords of Westernesse. He's on the way an thus won't take much screentime (and that's what it's all about .... how to fit a 475 page book into a 120 minute movie).

[IronParrot]

Stiegl - no Glorfindel? WHAT? Where did you hear that from?

[bmilder]

Yeah, Arwen is replacing him.

[Eruve]

I've heard that, while Arwen is replacing Glorfindel during the fight to the ford, Glorfindel will be present at the Council of Elrond.

[Darth Tater]

I read somewhere that Aragorn is giving them swords at Bree.

[noldo]

This change will put a whole lot of pressure on the scene where Aragorn and the hobbits meet Arwen (Glorfindel) in the woods.

It will be a romantic-scene. :)

[IronParrot]

WHAT? Replacing Glorfindel with Arwen? Optimism scale going down again...

[noldo]

It will be great! :)

http://www.earlyng.homestead.com/files/heartshe.gif

[Stiegl]

Oops, sorry if I gave away some info on the Movie. I thought it was pretty much common knowledge about Arwen's role. Is there a rule about Spoilers? Should they be announced?

I saw the info a while back on TORN and Ringbearer.com that Arwen would replacing Glorfindel and I also saw some pictures of Arwen riding with Frodo on a horse. I thought this pretty much confirmed it.

Even if Glorfindel is part of the Council of Elrond, (which I'm guessing is a longshot) he probably won't have much of a part, which is too bad. I always liked his character and wished JRR would have given him a bigger role in the book.

[arynetrek]

arwen replacing glorfindel?

gods, my worst fears are coming true. they're going to turn this wonderful book into a sap-story!

:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

BTW, i have nothign against arwen, & if they could do it right (i don't know how) i think the movie should include part of the tale of A&A. but re-writing to book is sacriledge, & even reshuffling the minor elves is enough to annoy me.

aryne *

[Darth Tater]

If you think that's bad you should read Super Spy Galdariel's latest report at TOR.N
If people didn't want movie spoilers they wouldn't come to this forum, so they're allowed.

[Gilthalion]

Perhaps it's a shame to replace Glorfindel with Arwen and it's certainly terrible to make her a "warrior-princess."

But remember that Luthien Tinuviel herself saw a lot of action (of a sort). They would be more imaginative (not to mention truer to Tolkien) to put Arwen into action in that sort of way, with enchantments and daring rather than hacking and slashing. Let Eowyn do the sword-swinging!

Still, passing the Fords does not really REQUIRE that she do battle, just loan Frodo a horse and grab a torch!

It helps to give Arwen and Aragorn some more screen time together. That may prove necessary to present their love story to a theater audience rather than to a reader.

I've read rumors of Arwen fighting at Helm's Deep and of her slaying Saruman (or was it Wormtongue). Now that's going way too far and actually changing the nature of the story itself! (If true...)

[Shanamir Duntak]

What makes me mad about this is that they're making me hate Arwen for that. I'll think about this when I reread the book... (grumble)... damn Arwen... Could you step out now... :(

[Samwise of the shire]

I dont get it I mean I'd have a cow if Sam was left out or if Aragorn was left out but seriously Tom Bombadil,Glorfindel,and Gildor are about as importent as a green door on Bag end.You're taking these movies too seriously they are NOT the books and so you cant expect them to follow the books in perfect detail,and dont make assumptions that just cause Arwen gets into the plot(which is stupid and totally uneccisary)does'nt mean that it's gonna be sappy,honestly from what I've seen and read it is gonna be a great movie.
What if one of the Hobbits found swords in the house at Crickhllow or they got some from the Blacksmith or something like that?TB does'nt have to supply the swords.
Sam

[Inoldonil]

I think it is almost known for certain that Aragorn will give the hobbits their blades, or they will get them at Weathertop, or both. In the movies, at the top of Weathertop (where they will be camping), there's swords everywhere. Or so we see in pictures. The Barrow-downs are indeed being cut out completely, and I think Gildor too.

The worth of the Barrow-blades, or rather Weather-blades, or Bree-blades, or whatever they are going to be certainly seem to be lessened, for in the 20 minutes of footage of the LOTR report it is stated Merry and Pippin on a Cave-trolls back don't even hurt it with their stabs and it tosses them off with ease.

the scene where he puts on the Ring & it has no power over him - i've always thought that was an important scene because it proved that there's some people in Middle-Earth who are in a way separated from the rest of the world.

I think you hit very near the mark there. Tolkien said TB was important as a comment. He was needed to get across a kind of character and statement no where else seen in the work. Of course he goes into it with more depth. Anyway TB also has other important functions.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

The name of Elbereth helped to drive the Nazgul away, there is no Lay for her. Unless that song he sung was called the Lay of Elbereth externally from the narrative (like in the index). There is the Lay Leithian, Release From Bondage, that Aragorn tells a part of before the Nazgul attack them.

But Gildor and his Wandering Companies were the ones who told Bombadil and Aragorn about the hobbits and their peril. I believe they made it to Rivendell too, but at the moment I am not sure.

They aren't cutting Glorfindel! We've heard he's accompanied by Arwen, not replaced by her.

[Samwise of the shire]

(dont cut yourself Pippin;) )Well problem how in the heck would Aragorn be able to climb the top of the gate at Bree with swords strapped to him?Or when he'd pull a sword out (I can just see it) He was'nt trusted and now he's pulling a sword out of his cloak hmmm I deffiantly think that the Hobbits would freak out,but that might be kinda funny. who knows I'm still gonna see it wether or not they have swords.
Sam
;) ;) ;) :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

[Inoldonil]

I agree. I'll just try and forget about the departures and enjoy it as a movie. Oh, if someone asks me about departures I'll give them a full report, but I'll enjoy the movie, if it is good. It looks to be that way.

By the way, Gildor's folk did indeed make it to Rivendell, that is how Elrond had news of Frodo and sent out the few Elves he had who could combat the Nazgul (including Glorfindel, naturally). So with Gildor out of the picture in the movies, there is the question of just how Elrond knew about Frodo and the pursuit of the Nine. I guess they will just have Gandalf tell them and ruin the suspense. They're showing Gandalf's capture in Orthanc as it happened, rather than a retelling, so one will know why Gandalf was late anyway.

[webwizard333]

back 2 the original topic....

i always felt that bombadil was important (no accident that he gave merry ... right? the magic sword but he also shows that sauron isnt all powerful and he THAT SAURON CAN BE BEATEN. i mean the ring was treated like a hula hoop by him

[Darth Tater]

magic sword?

[Inoldonil]

The Barrow-blade. It was called a sword by other characters other than Merry, as to him it was.

[Feanturi]

Mostly, all the characters in tolkiens books had a huge part in keeping the story going. If they Leave out those Characters than they will have to create new ways to keep it going, and might even cost more money. Although i'm still going to see the movie, probably with a couple of my friends , they will probably tell me, as will i tell them about whats out of place. I just think that if it's worth doing something then they should do it right. But i will enjoy it for the movie it is also.