How old *is* he?

[Jadera]

There is one thing at the moment that's driving me up the wall about Gandalf.

We know that most elves are immortal, and there are half elves. (also immortal?)

Hobbits and Men are mortal....
I haven't a clue what dwarves are...

But what's bugging me.....

What is Gandalf?

In the Hobbit, he presents Thorin and Company with a map that was given to him a hundred years before. This makes him over a hundred years old.

The Fellowship of the Ring takes place over sixty(?) years later? (Something like that....) So how old is Gandalf, and are all wizzards immortal?

Thanks!

[cassiopeia]

I'n no Tolkien scholar, but I'll do my best.
Gandalf is a wizard or Istari who were of the rank Maia sent by God like figures called the Valar to help against the evil of Sauron. It is said the Istari appeared about 1000 years into the 3rd age or Gandalf was about 2000 years old at the time of Bilbos first adventure. I don't want to give too much away in case you havn't read Lord of the Rings, but wizards can be slain.
Dwarves are mortal and live for about 250 years.
Half elves can choose to be mortal of immortal.
If you want to find out more, read The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion.

[Nazgûl Queen]

Okay... from what I've read, Gandalf is a Maia. This means that he is immortal.

And Gandalf didn't first appear around 1000 3rd Age. That time is merely when those maia took their wizard forms and travelled to Middleearth in order to guide the races. Prior to that, Gandalf was Olorin, a servant of a Valar... Nienna?

[Andúril]

Olorin, to my knowledge, was present at the Music of the Ainur, that is, before ea existed.

[Fladrif]

In the book called The Silmarillion, before the start of the actual Quenta Silmarillion, there are two short pieces that explain a whole lot about this. In fact the very first sentence, it turns out, says most of it. But that doesn't become clear until the end of the second short piece. Recall that Gandalf says in TTT "Olórin I was in my youth..." Well, these two pieces are very short and they read like mythical texts, which of course, they are. Unlike the Hobbit and LotR, these are supposed to be actual tales told by elves gathered around in the hall of stories, that place where Bilbo loved to nap ... er ... rest his eyes. And they actually have discrepencies like real myths. But they both pretty much start the same way, saying that the Ainur were created before all else. The details about Gandalf, however, are clearer in the second piece, the Valaquenta.

Now recall that moment on the bridge of Khazad-dûm when Gandalf says, "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass." The Secret Fire is named Eä and it is the living vision that arises from the Song of the Ainur. There are many Ainur, and they were all present at this Song. Some were Powers and they are called Valar, but some are lesser and they are called Maiar. Among the Maiar, some were perverted and became Balrogs. They served Melkor, an evil valar, in Utumno, also known as Udûn. Some of the Maiar serve by carrying the Sun and moon through the skies. Others lived long in Middle-Earth, such as Melian and the Istari: Saruman, Olórin, and Radagast. It says this about Olórin:

Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.
Of Melian much is told in the Quenta Silmarillion. But of Olórin the tales do not speak; for though he loved the elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put in their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from their despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.


In short, Gandalf existed before the world was made. He had a part in its making. He experienced the legends firsthand. As a servant of Eä, he will toil until the end of time.

My turn to ask a question: Has anyone seen any other reference to Anor than Minas Anor, Fingol's tower? I know what Gandalf has on his finger, but how does that relate to Fingol? I thought Cirdan gave it to him. I need a draught of Entwash.

[Nazgûl Queen]

Erm... since when wa sMinas Anor Fingon's tower?

When Gondor was created, wasn't the chief city Osgilliath, and there were two other towers: inas ithil (Tower of the Moon) which belonged to Isilidur and became Minas Morgul, and Minas Anor (Tower of the Sun) which belonged to Anorien and was renamed Minas Tirith?

*is confused*

And yes, Fladrif and Anduin, thats what I was trying to say about gandalf.

[Findegil]

Well, I think you had some misspellings here:
The Tower of Minas Anor (Citadel of Sun) was called the tower of Ecthelion, because Ecthelion I., an remote ancestor of Denethor II, build the high white tower in the middle of the citadel.
The city it self was build by Anarion the younger son of Elendil. (Anorien is the country north of the city between the river Anduin and the Ered Nimrais not a man.)
The city was renamed to Minas Tirith (Tower of Watch) when Minas Morgul was in the hand of the Nazgul and Osgilath was ruined in the war between the two towers.
The first tower which was named Minas Tirith was the tower of Finrod Felagund. In the first age it stood up on an isle in Sirion. Their is no connection between the two other then the name.
I can't in the moment remember to have read anything about a "Fingol" in the books of JRR Tolkien, but I might be wrong in that.

About the Flame of Anor and Minas Anor: Well, here I would say the connection is over the sun which is named Anor in Sindarin rather then over anything else. You can read a theory about that from Ñolendil, with which I agree and which is in no way connected with the Narya the Ring of fire that Gandalf held.

Thread with some theory about the flame of Anor (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3738)

Best Regrads
Findegil

[Fladrif]

I was so tired when I wrote that. I meant Finrod, not Fingol. There's no Fingol in Tolkien... that's an RPG character I knew...

Minas Tirith was built by Finrod.

Thanks for the link to the discussion on the Flame of Udûn.

NQ, I know we answered the same thing, but I was trying to sell the asker on reading the Silmarillion. Those first two mythological pieces are really very short and are a must for any fan.

[Comic Book Guy]

Gandalf was Olorin, a servant of a Valar... Nienna?

He was a Maia of Manwë.

[Andúril]

He too dwelt in Lorien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her learned pity and patience.

Lorien are the gardens of Irmo. Does it speak of Olorin's loyalty elsewhere?

[markedel]

He was sent by Manwe and Varda, but I don't if that makes him a maia of them, or just a messanger.

[Elvellon]

I think he was a maya of Irmo, the vala. He dwelt in Lorien, in Aman (not the Middle Earth Lorien)

[Comic Book Guy]

There is a text in Unfinished Tales about of the council of the Valar discussing who to send to Middle-Earth, in the Text, Manwë commands Olórin, suggesting that Manwë is Olórins vala.

[Jadera]

Wow, you guys know so much about this. I feel like a dweeb. ;)
I think I understand now, and I appreciate the help, because it was driving me bonkers.
Since all of you know a lot, might I pose a second question?
I read a quote that I believe was from the Two Towers that implied Galadriel saved Gandalf and made him Gandalf the White? Is that so?
(I am reading the Fellowship of the Ring right now, so bear with me. I'm learning. :D )

[Comic Book Guy]

After Gandalf was killed, he was revived by Eru.

[Menelvagor]

Galadriel and Celeborn were both members of the Order of the Wise, and I believe the quote you are refering to is said by Celeborn, in the formation of the White Council, if his plans had not gone astray Olorin would've been the head of the council.

Or at least that's my memory of it, some of it's a little fuzzy. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Glîm Iceholder]

I haven't a clue what dwarves are...
Here's the passages on Dwarven age in HoME XII, page 284-5

' Dwarves of different 'breeds' vary in their longevity. Durin's race were originally long-lived (especially those named Durin), but like most other peoples they had become less so during the Third Age. Their average age (unless they met a violent death) was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but could occasionally far exceed (up to 300).[17] A Dwarf of 300 was about as rare and aged as a Man of 100.

Dwarves remained young - e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard work or for fighting - until they were 30 or nearly that (Dain II was very young in 2799 (32) and his slaying of Azog was a great feat). After that they hardened and took on the appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By forty all Dwarves looked much alike in age, until they reached what they regarded as old age, about 240. Then they began to age and wrinkle and go white quickly (baldness being unknown among them), unless they were going to be long-lived, in which case the process was delayed. Almost the only physical disorder they suffered from (they were singularly immune from diseases such as affected Men, and Halflings) was corpulence. If in prosperous circumstances, many grew very fat at or before 200, and could not do much (save eat) afterwards. Otherwise 'old age' lasted not much more than ten years, and from say 40 or a little before to near 240 (two hundred years) the capacity for toil (and for fighting) of most Dwarves was equally great. '

[Andúril]

Manwe was the intended Ruler of Arda - he had the given authority to command anyone. I don't think that makes Olorin specifically a servent of Manwe, though...

[Ñólendil]

Tolkien says in a couple letters that Gandalf was a Maia of Manwë and in one chart of the Wizards, Gandalf is attached to Varda and Manwe (in that chart Saruman is with Aule, Radagast with Yavanna, and the Blue Wizards with Orome). This does not make what is said about him in The Silmarilion (Nienna and Lorien) untrue.

Manwe and Varda makes sense, in a way. Manwe to me less than Varda. The light and fire of Gandalf goes well with Varda. Gandalf's friendship with the Eagles would also be in accord with his service to Manwe.

Gandalf's age cannot be measured with years, as all the Wizards. He is older than the Universe itself, as he was created before it.