Death Of Sauron. Spoilers [Archive]

brownjenkins

07-12-2001, 06:51 PM

cool board...

Sauron will appear in the movie... in fact, there is a very brief glimpse of his skull mask in the beginning of the trailer. My guess would be that this comes from some sort of flashback scene when Gandalf is speaking on the history of the ring and the last alliance. Maybe the impailing is a reference to Isildur killing Sauron with Gil-Galad's spear (I can't quite remember the order of who killed who when in that fight) and then they show Barad-dur colapsing after he falls... just speculation on my part.

Inoldonil

07-12-2001, 07:51 PM

Welcome!

The impaling is definitely an echo of the pic we've seen of Saruman, the wizard-ka-bob pic.

Does it say somewhere Isildur slew Sauron with Gil-galad's spear? I didn't know about that.

brownjenkins

07-12-2001, 09:50 PM

Thank you.

You're probably right on the Saruman thing.

As far as how Sauron was actually killed... I'm just going from a sketchy memory of the history... maybe it was Elendil who did him in with his sword... I can't quite remember.

Shanamir Duntak

07-13-2001, 04:50 AM

As far as I remember, it's with it sword, Narsil.

SauronDL

07-13-2001, 09:32 AM

This can't be right. Sauron has only four forms, three of which were built by him during the reign of Melkor. These were a wolf, a vampire, and a serpent. The fourth was built after Isildur took the Ring. This was of a lidless eye, yellow, and glazed over like a cat's. It is said that the slit of the eye is like a hole into absolute nothingness.

Hence his alias, The Lidless Eye. He was also called the Red Eye by his Orcs; even though the eye was yellow. It can be confirmed this was because of the recognization of his slain assailers.

Ever wondered why his Orc armies had red eyes on their helms? I would hate to see Sauron in any other form; for one he is not seen by the Fellowship and he does not change form.

Shanamir Duntak

07-13-2001, 01:35 PM

HUH?

Are you sure you posted in the right thread?

Inoldonil

07-13-2001, 05:07 PM

I suppose he's reffering to my comment about Sauron having a skull mask in the movies, and brownjenkins confirmation of it.

I might say I feel it rather doubtful Sauron actually _was_ the Eye. I've never read that anywhere. He seems to have a terrible humanoid form, although he undoubtedly has a very extroadinary Eye. I imagine he only has one. And he was a shape-shifter in the old days, like all the Ainur he could assume any form he wanted according to his personality and will. Although a wolf, vampire and serpent is what we see in the Beren and Lúthien chapter :)

Darth Tater

07-13-2001, 11:55 PM

Hmm, everyone needs to review their history, even inoldonil judging by that last post!

webwizard333

07-15-2001, 03:26 PM

I always thought that Sauron had a human form, and that the Eye was what you felt when his "thought" passed over you.

Inoldonil

07-22-2001, 03:17 AM

Found more on this here (http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/artikel.asp?feedbackid=649). (English translation at the bottom)

Comic Book Guy 2001

07-25-2001, 04:52 PM

In the Journey to the crossroads, the statue is made to look like the Dark Lord Sauron.

The years had gnawed it, and violent hands had maimed it. Its head was gone,
and in its place was set in mockery a round rough-hewn stone, rudely painted
by savage hands in the likeness of a grinning face with one large red eye in
the midst of its forehead. Upon its knees and mighty chair, and all about
the pedestal, were idle scrawls mixed with the foul symbols that the
maggot-folk of Mordor used.

Shanamir Duntak

07-25-2001, 07:40 PM

Well... I have to disagree. I don't think the mocked statue is made to look like the Dark Lord. (But I still believe Sauron to have a humanoid form)

Comic Book Guy 2001

07-25-2001, 10:18 PM

Tolkien himself drew a sketch of Sauron for a cover of RotK. It proves that Sauron has a Humanoid appearance.

http://img-greenbooks.theonering.net/turgon/images/1100_sauron.jpg

Please post your views.

Manwe Sulimo

07-26-2001, 09:04 AM

As for Sauron and a humanoid form, I agree... his form was hideous, but it is still humanoid, I think...

But one thing that I started wondering about up here... Was Sauron ever killed in SA? Isildur cut off one off his fingers, and took the Ring... the sword was already broken then, and I don't think he could have killed him with it... and I do not believe that Isildur took Gil-Galads sword and killed Sauron either...

And the statue at the Crossroads was not made into the semblance of Sauron, I think... it was destroyed by the orcs because it was of a King of Gondor, and was meant to praise Sauron, I think, not look like him..

webwizard333

07-26-2001, 06:09 PM

Sauron survived the destruction of the Ring didn't he?

Shanamir Duntak

07-26-2001, 07:43 PM

Some of us suppose that....
It seems that he might be the master behind Bush...:p

Inoldonil

07-27-2001, 08:06 PM

Well, he died, as far as Ainur can die. He can't rise again.

That picture of him isn't the Sauron that was sitting on his throne in the Black Tower, however, it's the gigantic shadow that rises up after the destruction of the Ring, before the wind out of the West blows him away.

Sauron had to have had a humanoid form, I agree. Regarding the statue, I bet the face, or the position of the eye was an accurate representation of Sauron. So much is made of the Eye I wonder often if he only had one.

Fat middle

07-27-2001, 08:53 PM

of course Sauron had an humanoid form: it was the same that fought against Isildur. Gollum saw him and said he oly had four fingers in one hand... but they were enough.

Samwise of the shire

08-03-2001, 12:05 AM

Maybe this has been brought up but I'll bring it up again(and yes I read the whole thread).
Sauron "died"when the RING was destroyed.He had put ALL of his power in it (or most of it anyway) and when it was destroyed the power that he had put in the Ring was destroyed along with it container(that's why the Ring took control of everyone who bore it and that is also how it drew the will of Sauron to it)so I think that if Most or all of Saurons power was destroyed with the Ring thus killing him,he was'nt killed by some guys sword or anything like that,he was destroyed when the Ring was destroyed.In the movie I think that Sauron will be destroyed as he is in the book,considering that PJ is a major Tolkien fan(as Wood puts it"he breathes Tolkien").
Um yeah we probably DO see Sauron on several occasions or we hear his voice. Why do I say that.#1 When Gandalf is talking with frodo in Bag end they bring up the history of the Ring including the battle where the Ring is lost and the part where Gollum is captured.#2.Pippin uses the Palantir in the movie and sees Sauron so I think we will see a bit of the discourse that goes between Pippin and Sauron.#4.We will probably see an eye in Baradur sweeping over the Plain of Morgoth to look at Mt Doom where the Ring is calling from,well I think that's what MIGHT happen,but I'm not sure,it be cool if that did happen,way cooler then this guy flying from a window and getting impaled on a spike,that's just plain goofey.
Oh BTW who IS that wizard on the wheel?Saruman?
Sam

Manwe Sulimo

08-03-2001, 06:17 AM

I believe the wizard on the wheel is supposed to be Saruman, yeah...

As for Sauron, I too hope we will be seeing him in the movie, and that it will happen as in the book, and not be changed to make it more... appealing to the audience... Tolkien fans all over the world will probably be seeing the movie so many times that they bring in twice as much as all the rest in total, so they should really make it as true to the book as possible...

Darth Tater

08-03-2001, 02:39 PM

Just some clarification. Sauron never died in the books

Samwise of the shire

08-04-2001, 06:30 PM

Darth tateer have you been smoking something funny? Sauron gets destroyed in the books as in killed,it says in the return of the king that they saw this great cloud rising from Barad Dur and reaching out toward the west then a western wind came up and blew it away.Rising from Barad Dur what else do you think it might be? An orc? What makes you say that Sauron did'nt get killed?
Sam

Shanamir Duntak

08-05-2001, 12:49 PM

Ok Sam... if YOU get killed what will happen? You'll be a corpse, nothing else. Sauron wasn't killed. To be killed, you have to be a mortal. Sauron was not. He has not been killed, he was destroyed as you say and so did Tater.

There is a big difference between those two wordings.

Darth Tater

08-05-2001, 08:31 PM

What Shan said. He'll be back at the end of the world I'm sure, he's just gonna need a lot longer to recuperate then last time ;)

Samwise of the shire

08-07-2001, 12:34 AM

Oh well then forgive me for not being as experienced as you are in the Lord of the Rings. Darth Tater he could'nt come back he was DESTROYED to me being destroyed is the last and ulitmate form of death. Saurons body was killed in Numenor.But his spirit lived on weakend yes but not wholly destroyed, then the Ring was lost and Saurons spirit diminished and went into hiding but once again it grew into power after the Ring was found, when it was destroyed then Sauron was ultimatly and finally destroyed he could not return again.That's how I see it and sorry for being such a numbskull I once again put my over large foot in my over large mouth.
Sam
Ps.Hey here's a question for ya. Was the first war with Sauron(you know the one with Isildor)before or after the fall of Numenor?It's impossible to fight a spirit but Sauron died in the fall of Numenor but the Rings were new when he went to Numenor as a captive and most of his power was in the Ring(that's what initially destroyed him was the destruction of the Ring and we saw what happened when the Balrogs form was killed)so if the Ring had been lost before he went to Numenor then he would have been weakend but if the war was after then Isildor would have had to deal with a spirit which would be nearly impossible.
And Darth Tater were you talking literal sense in saying he's comin back or was that just a joke? I can never be sure on this type of thing

Manwe Sulimo

08-07-2001, 05:45 AM

The war between Sauron and Gil-Galad, Elendil, Isildur etc(also known as the Last Alliance between elves and men) was not the first war with Sauron. But that one was after the downfall of Numenor, as Elendil and Isildur both fled from Numenor when it was destroyed, and came to ME and established their nations.
Sauron had been the cause of that downfall, after being brought there by... who was it? Ar-Pharazon? after Sauron was taken POW by them.

Shanamir Duntak

08-07-2001, 10:25 AM

For the coming back, it's your guess... It's not written anywhere!

webwizard333

08-07-2001, 04:56 PM

I like to think of Sauron being only able to watch the event of the world, but in no way participate in them. I like to think of the End as when all the forces come back to their original power because all their power that was trapped in the world will be released.

Shanamir Duntak

08-09-2001, 02:16 AM

I like to think he controls the US... could explain so much... :lol:

Darth Tater

08-09-2001, 03:05 AM

Sam, Sauron never died, never never never never never. period.

Samwise of the shire

08-09-2001, 02:18 PM

But he was DESTROYED Darth Tater.Dying is just where your spirit is released from your body,being DESTROYED means all memory of you is erased, your gravestone, your body, your files in the city hall, etc are all destroyed and thus you are eliminated forever never again to return.Sauron DIED in Numenor but he lived on as a spirit then when the Ring was destroyed he was destroyed never again to return.
Read this e-mail I got from Erik Tracey it's conserning Balrogs but I think this can go for Sauron and all Maiar who have physical forms:Yes...the Balrogs were maiar. I have not done any research as to their
mortality. But I will conjecture on this based on what I've read. In the
mythos of Middle-earth, a spirit must have physicality in order to work
effects. That is why the maiar took shape in the form of balrogs, that is
why Melkor took shape and became Morgoth and the same for Sauron - because
they wanted to exert their will to dominate others. Each of the maiar and
the valar had power or potentiality each according to their own stature.
When a maiar chose to take physical form it expends a certain amount of
this innate/inner power. Depending on the form chosen - more or less of
this power is used up.

In the case of Sauron, he chose to expend and invest a major portion of his
power in the making of the One Ring. When Numenor was sunk and his
physical body destroyed he was forced to be nothing more than a shapeless
shadow for countless years as he slowly rebuilt enough power to again take
physical form. And when the One Ring was destroyed and the major amount of
his power dissipated - he was utterly destroyed.

Yet because he was a maia, his spirit could not be "killed" but doomed to
be within Middle-earth as powerless and ineffectual.

I think the same holds for the Balrogs - because they chose such powerful
*real* forms they expended all of their potentiality - their inner power -
to become "demons of might". And so subjected themselves to the same
possible fate as Sauron - if their physical form was bested and destroyed,
they were effectively doomed to be powerless shapeless spirits.

Hope that made sense.

And sorry for the delay in replying - just very busy lately.

Regards,
Erik
Okay ok I know that that one thing says that his spirit could not be killed but for Sauron being a memory just a bad dream is like being destroyed to him so he was destroyed which is a type of form of death.
Sam

Darth Tater

08-09-2001, 04:21 PM

"'The realm of Sauron is ended!' said Gandalf. 'The Ring-bearer has fulfilled his Quest.' And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell."

Hrmm Sam, your favorite word, destroyed, seems to be missing from that, the passage we have been discussing all along. Oh and he didn't die in Numenor, inoldonil can undoubtedly explain that better then I, since he basically convinced me of it ;)

Fat middle

08-09-2001, 04:58 PM

from what i've read in the last part of "Morgoth's Ring", Tolkien hasn't a definite idea about the consequences respecting Sauron of destroying the Ring.

However it seems that the Professor was making his mind to this idea: Sauron was not annihilated, cuz fea (=spirit) cannot be annihilated, but he was reduced to a form of being so low that he could never, never rise again nor get a new form.

Sauron would be only a mere desire of power over Middle Earth, but he would be unable to do anything.

Tolkien had in this moment a different idea for Melkor: he could raise again, cuz his power was not bound to a ring, but to the whole Middle Earth and that hadn't been destroyed. So Melkor could raise again for the final battle.

Erewe

08-10-2001, 01:44 AM

I really resent all this comparing Sauron to Bush. Sauron has more dignity than Bush could ever have! How dare you defile such a worthy opponent? ;)

--Erewë

Shanamir Duntak

08-10-2001, 02:50 PM

Tut tut tut.... I never said Bush WAS Sauron... I suggested I might be that puppet's master!

That so different!

Erewe

08-11-2001, 10:22 PM

Ah! I see. Well, I guess every bad guy needs a goofy servant.

--Erewë

andustar

08-13-2001, 06:03 PM

I have to agree with you, Darth and fat middle.

Samwise, I don't think Sauron was destroyed.

For instance, Gandalf says this, confirming what Fat Middle wrote : (from the Last Debate)

Iif it [the Ring, not sauron!!!!!] is destroyed, then he will fall: and his fall will be so low that none can forsee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in the beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow again or take shape.

There, doesn't this match word for word what Fat Middle said?

Anyway, I am prepared to accept Gandalf's authority on this point, him being a Maiar in Middle Earth himself ;).

Fat middle

08-13-2001, 07:01 PM

wow!:eek:
you're master finding quotes!! ;)

samwise of the shire

08-13-2001, 07:41 PM

(It stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed) Um notice a great wind took it and passed away.
Would'nt the shadow be Sauron considering it came from over the mountains surrounding Mordor and it was like a hand trying to grab the lands of the west but then the WIND took it and PASSED IT AWAY, sounds as if the shadow was disintergrated and I would say that when a wind blows through some smoke the smoke would be DESINTERGRATE as in being DESTROYED never to come back again.

Darth Tater

08-13-2001, 09:20 PM

To clear up an earlier point Sam, It is clearly stated in Appendix A (I'll find the quote later if you need it) That Sauron did not DIE at the downfall of Numenor, he simply lost the ability to take on a human form. Passed away could mean any number of things, and it is obviously vague on purpose. However, Tolkien explains it much later, ie the quote Andustar has supplied. And, if you wanna get technical, the particles that are found in smoke never dissapear: They exist forever and someday, when the earth is destroyed, they will float out into space and help for new galaxies and solar systems. How interesting!

Shanamir Duntak

08-14-2001, 10:08 AM

Smoke particle attach to clouds and rain down to earth, where they enter the ground.

Where else do you think acid rain comes from?

andustar

08-15-2001, 02:24 PM

yup Darth's right :)

and as for how I found the quote... er.... I was looking for the bit with Eowyn and the Nazgul for Trivia game and the book opened there. I suddenly thought that this quote would apply here
Pure luck :)

LOL pollution is actually Sauron particles? ;) okay, okay...

Ñólendil

08-15-2001, 03:30 PM

Sauron did die in almost the same sense as an Elf does, in that Maiar and Elves do not have freedom from the Circles of the World, but 'die' in a sense. Or can. They can lose their lives. Sauron was incarnated, and was killed, as far as a Maia can be killed; i.e., as you say he was destroyed [his body was destroyed and his spirit reduced to impotence, but able to rebuild again because of his possession of the Ring]. By the Ring he was able to return from death.

Darth, I convinced you Sauron didn't die? My my. I must have meant it in the same sense you do, in that he didn't die like Men die. Ultimately, I guess he did and he didn't, it depends on your point of view.

He died because his physical form was destroyed and his spirit was severed from that form. He didn't die because the Ainur who entered Eä must remain there (specifically in Arda) until it's End. His spirit cannot leave the World like Men do. Or you could say he didn't die in the Downfall because although his incarnated form was destroyed he could return, while he did die in the destruction of Barad-dur because he was reduced to impotence and would not return again. This is the sort of death Saruman met on a lower level. Here we have a poor reduced incarnated form of a spirit of a High Order, a spirit who fell and is killed (as I said on a lower level than Sauron). He will not return again (this is said in Unfinished Tales, Of the Istari).

So I guess he did die -- and he didn't. ;) It largely depends on what you regard as 'death'.

ringbearer

08-17-2001, 09:35 PM

When an Elf dies their spirit goes to the West(heaven). In Lotr Sauron's spirit tries to go to the West, but it is denied. The same thing happens to Saruman's spirit...a wind from the West blows it away. This is like banishment for all eternity with no chance of redemption...spiritual death is true death.

Ñólendil

08-19-2001, 12:42 AM

Elves aren't meant to remain in the Halls of Mandos forever after 'death' though (it's happened a few times). They get their old body back and return to Middle-earth (if possible and if their home had been there) or remain in Valinor (or go to Eressea). So it's not like the = of Heaven in Christian theology.

So I'm not so sure Saruman and Sauron tried to go there after the destruction of their forms. Possibly Saruman yearned for it, or expected something, that's why his spirit looked to the west. But in any case they weren't reduced to nill, which was impossible. They were simply incapable of returning to the Maian = of life. But this falls back on what one defines as 'life' and 'death'.

In my opinion :)

The Eye of Fangorn

08-21-2001, 06:08 AM

According to a rumour that I have heard on Imladris.net is that during the council, Elrond will be telling the members what happened in the battle when Sauron fell.

Yes it is not in the books but it could have happened like that.

Darth Tater

08-21-2001, 02:29 PM

Actually, many trustworthy sources (even Sir Ian Mckellen!) have confermend that Gandalf tells Frodo about this at their meeting, and there are flashbacks

ArwenEvenstar

09-08-2001, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy 2001
Ok theres not much to go on this but on a website it says that Sauron will be a man clad in spiked armour. When the ring is destroyed barad-dur falls apart and Sauron flys from it onto a spike.

so far we've heard rumors about to ppls getting spiked!:rolleyes:

ringbearer

09-08-2001, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by The Eye of Fangorn
According to a rumour that I have heard on Imladris.net is that during the council, Elrond will be telling the members what happened in the battle when Sauron fell.

Yes it is not in the books but it could have happened like that.

Uh, sorry but that is in the book. Elrond describes the Last Alliance in the chapter "The Council of Elrond".

olorin7

12-13-2001, 11:49 AM

Sauron can not be killed. he is a maia. he can be forced from his physical body, as he has been three times, once after the fall of numenor, once at the end of the second age, and when the ring was destroyed. it is said that when the ring was destroyed that he no longer had any real threatening power and would not be able to take physical shape again. it is also said that after the fall of numenor that he could no longer take a pleasing physical apperance, that his skin was chared and foul to look upon. this leads you to believe that he still holds his human looking form that he had in numenor, only now it has be mutilated.

Lightice

12-14-2001, 09:22 AM

Sauron wasn't actually destroyed either. In the books, Gandalf tells, that if the Ring is destroyed, Sauron will become small spirit of evil that gnaws itself in shadows with no power rise or take form. Sauron just lost so much of his powers in destruction of the Ring, that he could never build another empire of evil.
I read that part yesterday, when I read the book about twentieth time, so I can be pretty positive about it. I can't tell Gandalfs actual words, becouse I don't have english version of it at hand and I doubt, that most of people in these forum will understand finnish. :)

Comic Book Guy

12-14-2001, 03:04 PM

'Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for theunderstanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it, your valouris vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that nonecan foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.

I believe thats the quote you're looking for.