Denethor

[Darth Tater]

I believe that this is the best written character in Tolkiens LOTR. He is a troubled old man, but not the usual bad guy. He has all the qualities of a real "bad" human. He has reasons for not being a great guy, he's troubled in a way that's real. Denethor is a masterpiece.

[Hernalt]

(Thorongil from Rohan had just defeated the Corsair fleet of Umbar, and he did not return to Gondor where fame and reward awaited his victory.) <FONT COLOR=GREEN>"There was dismay in the City at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a great loss, unlerss it were Denethor, the son of Ecthelion, a man now ripe for the Stewardship, to which after four years he succeeded on the death of his father..."</FONT> (Thorongil always warned Ecthelion to put trust in Gandalf.) <FONT COLOR=GREEN>"Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him."</FONT> I won't tell you who Thorongil was.. Also, he 'forsaw that the assault of Mordor would come in his time.' Imagine living your whole life within fifty miles of your bane.

[Darth Tater]

Hernalt, you are awesome! He's kinda like the opposite of Simeon in the biblical story of Jesus' circumsition. He foresaw the coming of the Messiah and lived until then.

[bmilder]

I guess I never responded to this :o. Yes, Denethor was well-written. Still, it's hard to forgive the guy for almost taking Faramir with him in death... Do you think maybe the Steward blood line was easily corrupted, since both Denethor and Boromir went mad?

[Hernalt]

A valid usage of term, bmilder. Tolkien expressed that denethor specifically resisted the avenues galdalf was taking to restore one of Isildur's line to the throne of Gondor. Denethor took it upon Himself to decide what exactly was too far from the original line, and he decided Aragorn with his Dunedain heritage was no more entitled to the throne than he himself already with the Stewardship. His pride was not entirely personal, of course, but he possessed the folly of thinking that Gondor's benefit and glory resided Only with him or his son Boromir. With Boromir it wasn't so much disregarding Aragorn's lineage as much as his fear of *squandering* such advantage as the ring afforded. He also fell in his Test more out of Folly than out of pride. His repentance for attacking Frodo was all the more believable - he was essentially the big thug without the wisdom of his betters, and of course he'd be tempted by the novelty of the all-powerful trinket.

[Darth Tater]

Hernalt, you never scease (sp?) to amaze me.

[Elrond]

This person is a walking book... I know who Thorongil was... He lived in Imladris for some time, I believe;) I hope I have the right person... I think so...

[Elanor]

argh. It's so frustrating for me here at school without my books. I now have lots of things to look up when I go home for the weekend after next.

[Darth Tater]

Poor Elanor!

[Elanor]

Oh, great. Everyone pity me. Poor starving college student, dying from lack of contact with Middle-earth. Just what I need.

[Darth Tater]

What, I thought you wanted pitty!

[afro-elf]

I concur that denethor was a great character. I like the character because he was noble AND flawed. He is my favorite good/bad guy in ME. I like him far more than Feanor.

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by bmilder
I guess I never responded to this :o. Yes, Denethor was well-written. Still, it's hard to forgive the guy for almost taking Faramir with him in death... Do you think maybe the Steward blood line was easily corrupted, since both Denethor and Boromir went mad?

Of course, I agree with bmilder...Sure, he is a "well written" BAD GUY. I compare him with Sauron...BAD GUY. Bad guys deserve what they get...like "burning to death" just what they deserve!

[afro-elf]

do you consider feanor to be a bad guy?

[viggosbeard]

I thought Denethor lost the plot due to using the Palantir - as I suppose was also partly the downfall of Saruman - I do agree he made a wonderful character, I really disliked him the first few times I read lotr, but now I quite enjoy this powerful man with the weight of the free world on his shoulders, realising that his stewardship was failing , despair and ruin , marvelous.

[Andúril]

Elrond,

I think Thorongil was Aragorn...

[Snowdog]

Fëanor wasn't necessarily bad, but had some major character flaws. Thiss too could be said of Boromir and Denethor in their extreme pride.

[Liviaine]

Yeah. Not truly evil, just with great faults.

Yes, I do believe Thorongil is another of Aragorn's names.

[The Ringbearer]

Yeah, I think it was one of his MANY names. :rolleyes:


AHEM? Did I hear someone call me a CAD?! :mad: ;)

[Panther2112]

With Boromir it wasn't so much disregarding Aragorn's lineage as much as his fear of *squandering* such advantage as the ring afforded. He also fell in his Test more out of Folly than out of pride. His repentance for attacking Frodo was all the more believable - he was essentially the big thug without the wisdom of his betters, and of course he'd be tempted by the novelty of the all-powerful trinket.

I have to disagree with you on this one. Boromir had many faults but I have never considered him a thug nor stupid. Yea, maybe he was into honer and glory a bit much, but down deep he truley cared for his people. He failed the test of the ring, but saw the error of his ways afterwords and died honerable defending Merry and Pippen. A flawed man with noble intentions.:(

[Renille]

(What IS this new habit of unburying 2 to 3 year old posts? It's so cool!:D )

About Denethor, though- I don't think he was "bad" in the sense that he was a willfully not good person. He was just a very confused who fell into something too strong for him and came off the worse because of it. It, for me, showed once again how pride can ruin normal humans.
BTW- I don't remember Feanor as ever really being implied as bad in the Sil. or UT. I just understood him to be VERY VERY tragic and EXTREMELY unlucky.

[Nilvasaien]

I agree that Denethor is flawed, perhaps even highly so. Yet he lived with despair and dread for so long; how could he be well-adjusted? The fact that many of us can empathize with him, even though we don't like him, is testament to Professor T's talent.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Darth Tater
I believe that this is the best written character in Tolkiens LOTR. He is a troubled old man, but not the usual bad guy. He has all the qualities of a real "bad" human. He has reasons for not being a great guy, he's troubled in a way that's real. Denethor is a masterpiece. Though I don't think he's the best written character in LotR, I agree that Denethor is a masterpiece. He really is. I always find troubled and crazy characters in books very interesting. And as you say, he's troubled in a way that's real.
What also interests me is that his madness is somewhat jusified. He has been corrupted by the PalantÃ*r, he has seen what Sauron wanted to show him. It would take a tremendously strong psyche not to go insane after using the PalantÃ*r as much as Denethor did.

Am I crazy if I expect Darth Tater to read my answer to his post, which he wrote in 1999?

[Linaewen]

Am I crazy if I expect Darth Tater to read my answer to his post, which he wrote in 1999?
Yes. You are. :p

I agree with your post though. Doesn't mean I like him, tho. My poor beloved Faramir- not you Jonathan (Lalaith's little Faramir)

[Jonathan]

In the upcoming film, I hope Denethor will not be described as a villain. It's my opinion that he doesn't deserve that. Peter Jackson can make him a little wicked, but he shouldn't make him an evil person comparable with let's say Saruman.
On the other hand, I hope he's really mean to Faramir in RotK. Faramir might be my favourite character, but I think it will spice him up a little if Denethor is nasty to him.

[azalea]

:eek: Did you just make a movie post in the book forum?:mad: ;) (just kidding)

[Jonathan]

It can be a little confusing when there's two LotR forums, one for the books and one for the movies. That makes it impossible to have a thread concerning everything about Denethor, for example.
But maybe that's why there is a Middle-Earth forum. Are you obliged to move this whole thread to the ME forum now, because of my post? :D