Shadowfax

[Khamûl]

What color is Shadowfax in the books? I know I've seen pictures of the movies and he's white. But for some reason, I've always pictured him as being black. I know it's probably somewhere in LotR, but I'm too lazy too look.:p

[FrodoFriend]

In the books he's described as silverish-white in the daytime and grey at night, I think.

[Starr Polish]

Ditto, FF.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
In the books he's described as silverish-white in the daytime and grey at night, I think.

What more can ya say?

[Khamûl]

Maybe they made him a straight white in the movies because it would look kinda funny having a white rider on a greyish horse. I suppose it does look more impressive with a white horse and a white rider.

Wasn't Glorfindel the one with the white horse? (or Arwen in the movie)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Shadowfax was silver-grey.

[Prince Faramir]

is that the grey shade would make him almost invisible at night....it added to his kingly status amongst horses, or thats how i read into it.

[RosieCotton]

Silvery-whitish-greyish. I think I just made up a new color! Well, anyways, I don't think he would be black because Gandalf, while in possession of Shadowfax was white. Maybe the grey represents the old Gandalf the Grey. Just an idea.
~Rosie~

[Lorien14]

I've always pictured him as black, too. I didn't even realize he wasn't until you mentioned it. I looked it up, and he's a silvery-whitish-greyish color. I was surprised, because I had like, totally skipped that entire page. I think Shadowfax should be black.

[ArwenEvenstar]

myself i always pictured him white/silver.

Just a thought but in the movie they could have used two horses a white-ish one for the day scenes and a grey-ish one in the night scenes.

[Radagast The Brown]

I thought Shadowfax was black or grey because its name. For my suprise I didn't see what's written in the book! well now I know what's its colour.:)

[RosieCotton]

How's this for an idea:
Shadowfax is white during the day because Gandalf is Gandalf the White. Shadowfax is grey during the night because Gandalf used to be Gandalf the grey. It's just an idea.
Rosie~

[cian]

"And Gandalf, too, was now riding on his tall grey horse, all clad in white with a great mantle of blue and silver over all, ..." RotK

"At that moment he caught a flash of white and silver coming from the North, ..." RotK

Just a couple descriptive examples. An earlier name for Shadowfax was "Greyfax" (HoMe).

[Shadowfax]

Yeah, I'm whitish-silverish-greyish-whitish...:D

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Yeah, I always pictured grey-silver-white. I love the one in the movie!!!! I want it! :)

[Lightice]

I've imagined him to be silvery-gray. No white, no shabby gray, but silver.
He seems too white in the pictures I have seen, but then again, nazgûl horses were actually brown, and Gandalf's robe was bluish, but they seemed like black and gray becouse of some element of the film.

[frodosgirlfriend]

i though he was black and look silver in the moon light.

[Rána Eressëa]

Shadowfax is silver. How do I come to this conclusion? When light reflects on silver it appears white. When there is no light, it appears grey. Wallah. :)

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Sounds good, RE. Problem solved :D

[Starr Polish]

Always have imagined him as silver, kind of how RE described it. I think the horse playing Shadowfax looks fine though.

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by Rána Eressëa
Shadowfax is silver. How do I come to this conclusion? When light reflects on silver it appears white. When there is no light, it appears grey. Wallah. :)

Gandalf: Ai! High-o Shadowfax AWAY!
Rohirrim General: Who is that Wise Man?
Theoden: Why that is THE WHIIITE RIIIIDEEER!
(and his hairyfooted friend Tont..er..Pippin)

[BeardofPants]

There's only so far you can take this thread... Shadowfax = grey. End of story. :) :) :)

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
There's only so far you can take this thread... Shadowfax = grey. And of story. :) :) :)

And of story:

And he lived happily ever aftter until he revealed himself to be silver.:D

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Arathorn


And of story:

And he lived happily ever aftter until he revealed himself to be silver.:D

Gah! You know I meant to type and... er, I mean, end!

*jumps onto Arathorns leg and start chomping*

[Rána Eressëa]

Silver is such a beautiful color, don't you think? No wonder Elves prefer it over tacky gold. :D I've always pictured Shadowfax as silver-coated. Lucky horse gets to transcend through colors, not to mention three of my favorites.

[rohirrim19]

I always thought the name Shadowfax was a bit misleading. Fax means coat or hair (unless I'm totally wrong) So shadow coat, or black hair basically. I know he's really a silvery color but it just... bugs me.

[Menelvagor]

hmm, I dunno. Shadows can be grey. Actually, most of the time I picture shadows as grey...

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Rána Eressëa
Silver is such a beautiful color, don't you think? No wonder Elves prefer it over tacky gold. :D I've always pictured Shadowfax as silver-coated. Lucky horse gets to transcend through colors, not to mention three of my favorites.

I agree. Silver is cool because it is a variant of white, and thus looks good whith any color, whereas gold is a variant of yellow, and only looks good with some colors.

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


*jumps onto Arathorns leg and start chomping*

GET OFF! GET OFF!:eek: And I thought you were vegetarian for Natural Selection's sake! YIKES!

*BTW, folks. I had an impression that shadowfax was really grey but am going to enjoy picturing him shimmering like silver when I read the books again. What an idea! :) Now back to our feature The Lost World*

GET OFF! GE...

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Arathorn


GET OFF! GET OFF!:eek: And I thought you were vegetarian for Natural Selection's sake! YIKES!
Now back to our feature The Lost World*

GET OFF! GE...

Mmmmmmm! Tastes like chicken....

(PS 'natural selection' hehe:) )

[Elf Girl]

In the Land of Entmoot, Where Cannibalism Lies.

[BeardofPants]

*Rubs tummy, mournfully*

Ooh.... I ate too much.... must.... find.... room.... for.... dessert.....

*Eyes Elf Girl woefully*

[Elf Girl]

Um...here *Nervously chucks BeardofPants a chocolate bar and bolts*

[Menelvagor]

'But as for your gift, lord, I will choose one that will fit my need: swift and sure. Give me Shadowfax! He was only lent before, if loan we may call it. But now I shall ride him into great hazard, setting silver against black: I would not risk anything that was not my own. And already there is a bond of love between us.'

silver it is!

[Elf Girl]

Yes! Silver has triumphed!

[Rána Eressëa]

What did I tell you? ;) :D

[afro-elf]

in the council of of elrond

its says he is silver by day and by night it is like shade

[BeardofPants]

Okay, okay:

Shadowfax = Silver/Gray. Now, how about a game of knuckle bones? Anyone? Anyone?

[Radagast The Brown]

I thought he was in the start of this thread white

[Elfhelm]

Horse colors:

"Grey" means black skin and a mixture of white and sparse black hairs.

There is no such horse color as white. A fact JRRT probably knew.

[Radagast The Brown]

news!!!!
There's white horses in the world!!!

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
news!!!!
There's white horses in the world!!!

No, there aren't. Perhaps some languages call their horses white, but in English they are greys. Do you believe me or should I fetch the actual wording from the breeders' horse color descriptions?

[TwirlingString]

Originally posted by Khamûl
What color is Shadowfax in the books? I know I've seen pictures of the movies and he's white. But for some reason, I've always pictured him as being black. I know it's probably somewhere in LotR, but I'm too lazy too look.:p

I agree he just doesn't feel white. He seems like a devil may care type, and those are always black. (most notiable, the Black Stallion)

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by elfhelm

No, there aren't. Perhaps some languages call their horses white, but in English they are greys. Do you believe me or should I fetch the actual wording from the breeders' horse color descriptions?


I have an other choise? I guess no. I believe you.

[TwirlingString]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown



I have an other choise? I guess no. I believe you.

I never thought of that, I think I read that some place.:D :cool:

[Elfhelm]

And if I may remove all doubt, Shadowfax is a modernization of the Anglo-Saxon word "Sceadufax": grey-hair.

Silver is also a horse color meaning there are also black hairs mixed with white in the mane.

[TwirlingString]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
And if I may remove all doubt, Shadowfax is a modernization of the Anglo-Saxon word "Sceadufax": grey-hair.

Silver is also a horse color meaning there are also black hairs mixed with white in the mane.

Where do you get these things? (slight amazed)

[BeardofPants]

Forget about the invasion of the Box, I would fear more about the String!

Here, have a smartie. Read a book. Stop spamming. Unless of course, it's about my beloved Box. :D

[Elfhelm]

Why "Sceadufax" was the original title of Book III chapter 5, The White Rider. It's in H.O.M.E.

[TwirlingString]

OOooooooh, now I get the box. Speaking of which have you read The Box... I can't remember the title, I do remember that there were bugs that were planning to take over the world inside.

[BeardofPants]

You know my secret. You must be squashed.

[TwirlingString]

It was a cool book. Hey, you mean i was right?

[Arathorn]

Wow, TwirlingString! You post like shadowfax (68+ posts/day)!

[Elfhelm]

Have you ever noticed that a couple people posting comments that should be in the General forum can kill a thread?

[azalea]

Yes. I have noticed that.:mad:

[TwirlingString]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Have you ever noticed that a couple people posting comments that should be in the General forum can kill a thread?

Sorry, I apologize. I think we did settle the matter of Shadowfax's color already though. We also check our information, so I think this thread is done anyway.

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by TwirlingString


I think this thread is done

Threads are never done. :p

Anyway, Gandalf says Shadowfax is silver. And a white horse is possible if it has a full body sock. And silver is a horse color. And Sceadu is often translated as shadow, not grey, but sometimes equated with "scathe", connecting to the Nordic god Sceadu. But fax is old English for hair. JRRT taught old English. And he also read the Eddas in the original. So how does this god, Sceadu fit?

[TwirlingString]

Originally posted by Elfhelm


Threads are never done. :p

Anyway, Gandalf says Shadowfax is silver. And a white horse is possible if it has a full body sock. And silver is a horse color. And Sceadu is often translated as shadow, not grey, but sometimes equated with "scathe", connecting to the Nordic god Sceadu. But fax is old English for hair. JRRT taught old English. And he also read the Eddas in the original. So how does this god, Sceadu fit?

You may be right. And since you are now WAY over my head, i think I will bow out.

[Elfhelm]

I got this from a Harvard World Lore website:


SHADE AND SHADOW
Look at the words "shade" and "shadow". What do you notice about them? One thing students might notice is that they start with the same letters: shad-. They might also notice they have similar meanings: casting a shadow makes shade. If they think these words are related, they are right!
A thousand (1000) years ago, people who spoke Old English said "sceadu". This word basically meant "shade". Six hundred (600) years ago the people who spoke Middle English used the word "schade" which eventually turned into our word "shade".

There were other forms of Old English "sceadu", though, including the oblique case form "sceadwe". 1 This eventually turned into our word "shadow". Since both "shade" and "shadow" come from one word (Old English "sceadu"), their meanings are very, very similar. In fact, you can try making sentences using only one of the words, and then try substituting in the other to see if the sentence still makes sense. Most of the time it will make sense, although it might sometimes sound a little funny. People tend to use "shade" and "shadow" slightly differently even though they mean almost the same thing. See if the students can figure out how they use both words.

About two thousand (2000) years ago, people who spoke Germanic might have said "skaðwoz" or "skadwaz" to mean "shade" (or "shadow"). 2 About six thousand (6000) years ago people who spoke Indo-European might have said "skotwós" or "skotos". This turned into words with related meanings in different later languages; the Greek word for "darkness" is very similar: "skotos". Here are words meaning "shade" or "shadow" in other Germanic languages--most only have one word for "shade" and "shadow":

West Frisian: skaed
Dutch: schaduw
Afrikaans: skadu
Low German: schadde
High German: Schatten
Gothic: shadus
Irish: scáth
Breton: scod
Cornish: scod
Welsh: cy-sgod


and I also found the Nordic name for the Goddess of Winter Snows is Scathi, where the "th" is represented with a torn character (but since some of us have Macs, I won't insert the character from a PC font.)

So I still say it all comes down to silver-grey. :)

[TwirlingString]

See what you did, you made him prove it! I think he's right though, the conversation has finally come back down to my level.

[Elfhelm]

See what YOU did? By posting irrelevant stuff like: "you're right", "that's cool", "that's out of my depth", and "wow", you killed the thread. That is spam. Stop doing it. If you don't have something to add, just read and move on. It's not about YOU. It's about Shadowfax. Comment on Shadowfax or move on. Thanks.

Now back to the topic...

So Shadowfax is one of the mearas who are descended from Felaróf, who I have seen described as a white horse. Now I have maintained above that white is not a horse color. But in fact a horse can be white if it is covered by a full body sock. Let me explain that. The pigmentation of the skin of most horses that apear white is actually black. You can see the skin color on the nose. However, there are a variety of patches of unpigmented skin that have names, like a star or a sock. If a horse has absolutely no pigment at all, that is an albino, and it is probably a weak reature. But it is possible for a horse to have a sock patch that covers such a large area that the black skin can only be seen at the edges. I have heard that such coloration has occurred, but I've never seen a picture of one.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I think we were discussing what color Shadowfax appears to be, rather than the technicalities of horse color. While your posts have been quite enlightening and I have learned a lot about horse color, Elfhelm, and it is appreciated, there are horses that look white, and I think that is what we were talking about. . .

forgive me if I am wrong, and please refrain from murdering me, or causing me to choke on my water. . .:)

[Elfhelm]

Wel, I think when it's a question of what an author meant by certain words, it goes to the question of what the author knew? So I wonder if Tolkien knew that horses that appear white are called grey by breeders.

And since the Rohirrim speak basically old english and fax means hair and sceadu means shadow, what does that mean the color is?

All I know is that he shines like silver in the wind.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

He might not have known. Just as he might not have realized that potatos are a New World plant, and therefore might not be in ME, but then again who cares, it's ME, not Europe, and it's fantasy, so who cares, except that it has been theorized that ME is based on Europe, so...I'll stop now, shall I? :)

[Elfhelm]

I have to throw this into the mix:

"Probably every writer making a secondary world, a fantasy, every sub-creator, wishes in some measure to be a real maker, or hopes that he is drawing on reality: hopes that the peculiar quality of this secondary world (if not all the details) are derived from Reality, or are flowing into it. " from On Fairy-Tales.

So he has taters, and calls days of the week by english names, and they smoke tobacco, and all sorts of other details derived from reality.

So I hope someone who knows the biographical material better than me can say if he drew the details of horse coloring from the reality of the breeders. This would make the word choice of silver a bit more significant. Or did he draw his horse coloration from the more common understanding?

Because the upshot of it is, Shadowfax and Felarof would be called white by most people, or silver or grey by a breeder, I think.

[azalea]

In regard to your earlier post regarding horse hair/ skin color, does that relate at all to the Lippanzaner (sp) stallions, how they are born grey or black and then become "white"?

[Elf Girl]

Albino horses are often referred to as "white" since they have no black hairs at all.

[cian]

"And Gandalf, too, was now riding on his tall grey horse, ..." RotK

'Grey' for Shadowfax here (and obviously the 'silver' refs we know of) ... but also note that Tolkien uses the word "white" to describe Asfaloth and Snowmane for examples. While I'm aware of the "horsespeak" terminology, we see Tolkien using the word white in certain 'horse descriptions' (including 'white' to describe an earlier horse of Gandalf's in the LotR drafts).

Hasufel was described as a 'dark-grey horse'.

[Elf Girl]

They could all be albino...

[Menelvagor]

Well, Tolkien was writing for ordinary people, not horse breeders. Even if he knew the proper terminology, he would've probably used the more common names to make it more understandable.

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by cian
"And Gandalf, too, was now riding on his tall grey horse, ..." RotK

'Grey' for Shadowfax here (and obviously the 'silver' refs we know of) ... but also note that Tolkien uses the word "white" to describe Asfaloth and Snowmane for examples. While I'm aware of the "horsespeak" terminology, we see Tolkien using the word white in certain 'horse descriptions' (including 'white' to describe an earlier horse of Gandalf's in the LotR drafts).

Hasufel was described as a 'dark-grey horse'.

I accept that JRRT used common names for colors then. But even among the range of greys there is a lot of room for variation. Here's text from en English equestrian site:

http://www.equine-world.co.uk/about_horses/colours.htm

"Grey: There are various types of grey with some being very pale, almost white with very little grey showing to others being very dark and obvious grey. The mane and tail are grey. Grey horses are born solid coloured eg black, brown, etc and the coat develops into grey as it becomes mature."

But I imagine Shadowfax was a dark grey.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I imagine a lighter gray. ..