It CAN'T Be Done? Or Can It?

[Pippin Skywalker]

Stanley Kubrick said that Lord of the Rings was "Unfilmable." So many unanimously say of the Silmarillion. But my arguement is this: If Stanley Kubrick one of Hollywood's most famous and remembered Directors said LOTR could not be made,then how do you explain the recent three hour magnum opus of magnificence now on screens around the world, with 13 Oscar Nominations? My word to you: Don't Trust The Critics no matter how influential,experianced or important. It IS possible to make a film...it will just take thought,courage and good sense. As a up and coming filmaker I believe it can be done. I would like to do it myself....hopefully....

It might have to be in two movies...maybe three...


Probably most will dissagree...but that is common when something hasn't been done. Awake and open now the silent gates of your hearts that song s and tales of great things may come in!


Adieu For Now. :)

[Nibs]

Some one said it couldn't be done? Why would he say that? Maybe he was implying a single film. Even then...

Any way, there was one thread discussing the filming of the Silmarillion. The outcome was (in my mind, any way): it could be done, just in many installments. The Silmarillion contains many, many stories, with little dialogue. That would have to be filled in. It would take a lot of time and loads of talent, but it's quite feasible. It would make a great film (or twenty or so).

[Sister Golden Hair]

When Stanley Kubrick made that remark, it probably was more of an impossibility to make a good movie of LotRs. He has been dead for awhile, and he was a great director, so he was very realistic in his thinking at that point in time. A movie of the Silmarillion? I had even my doubts about the P.J. movie and how true to form it could stay. I must admit that considering the complexity of the story, it was well done. For me though, the Sil. would be tough. It's detailed in a different way than LotRs, but it is not a question of impossibility for the Sil, but loyalty to it, and detailing the compexity of a much greater task. The most I think you could hope for with the Sil. is to bring a great story or two alive from it. I don't think a film could ever do the entire book justice, or have the ability to stay true to form. But I say that for now, like Stanley Kubrick said then.

[Dwarven Sen]

I've always prefered books to films and I think that the LotR film was good but Sil is much much more complex and being a film would wreck the whole thing : the emotion the hatred the power the whole timeline of life death construction destruction turmoil and calm it would all fade

[Elf Girl]

I agree about the film wrecking the whole thing. And they wouldn't make it, they're worried they'll get sued for religious reasons.

[Dwarven Sen]

What religious reasons I mean i worship ulmo but why exactly actually arrrggggggghhhhh i am caught between worshipping ulmo and yoda:confused:

[Cirdan]

Kubrick was a bit of a purist. He wouldn't allow a stereo re mastering of the mono track for 2001 on the DVD! He also didn't have the computer power to throw together a balrog. I think the the Silmarillion "could" be done, but it would have to be serialized and I doubt it would draw the big production bucks that LotR did. But, if they make huge piles of cash and have the assembled artists, liguists, etc from LotR then why not try. I think they would do the hobbit first. After 4 films the studio and movie goers would probably burn out, but then Stae Wars is still going string and the plot lines are much weaker.

Anyway, I agree with the comment about preferring the books. The movies are nice eye candy but nothing can substitute for a good read.

[bropous]

Actually, after the final release of "Return of the King", I hope Jackson actually tackles a three-hour length "The Hobbit".

As for filming "The Silmarillion", I have great respect for the recently deceased (I think it was last year or the year before, Sister Golden Hair) Stanley Kubrick, but on this issue I simply think he was wrong. I do not know if audiences could be drawn in for a serialized Silmarillion, but some of the stories COULD stand on their own as films (the story of Beren and Luthien comes to mind). However, although not impossible a task, the filming of Sil would be herculean beyond measure. Talk about folks steamed at Bombadil and Glorfindel not being in LotR: Can you imagine a Silmarillion film leaving out Cirdan Shipwright or Finrod or, clutch the pearls, Glorfindel AGAIN???

To do justice, the book would have to be broken up into separate films, and I just don't think a studio would go for that. But then again, for the longest time, "Lord of the Rings" was considered "unfilmable" in live-action as well.

[markedel]

Actually many tolkien stories make excellent short films, but not features, Aldarion and Erendis, Turin, Tuor etc.

[Lelondul]

Cirdan, I think the reason Star Wars is still going is because it has a simple storyline. By number of names alone, any story out of the Sill would be grossly overwhelming to a public audience in film-form. That is, unless the dreaded 'dumbing-down for mass audiences' rears its ugly head and in a worse manner than that of the LotR version of which we all already complain about.

No doubt it would be cool to see with what special effects can do now. (Imagine Ulmo rising out of the sea to cousel Tour in Vinyamar, or the fall of Gondolin, or even Beleg and Turin defending the northern Borders of Doriath side-by-side! damn that would be sweet!)

I think maybe Beren and Luthien tale has enough of a basic love-story theme to potentially work, but then you run the risk of ruining the love story that the Professor himself held very dear to his heart (his headstone has by his request, 'Beren' under his name and "Luthien" under his wife Edith's). Who would be brave enough to try that?


Oh and not to take too much away from Star Wars, there was a twenty-year break between the first three and last three films :)

[Cirdan]

Lelondul, I agree with your points. There would end up being the endless narrator interupting to explain all the history needed just to get through it. Turin sound like a good candidate. They would have some need to link through plot lines to the LotR to retain movie only fans. Something with the Fall of the Numenoreans and the creation of the rings. It's still a bit of a stretch. There aren't the happy endings that most movie goers demand. On a tangent to the religious note, much of the bible has been put to film, but then it's been read a bit more than the Silmarillion.
Kubrick recently, right before "Eyes Wide Shut" hit the theaters. His quote was, I assume from much earlier in his career, when the books came out.

[Pippin Skywalker]

Well! A lot of good insightful discussion has had it's being since I've been away! Another thing you may want to consider as far as a studio not going for breaking the Silmarillion into "part" is this: Remember George Lucas has his own film company Lucasfilm. He has this so he can have complete freedom over his films, how they are made and when they come out. Also he earned a lot of money from the classic trilogy and became rich enough do a lot of the financial stuff himself. Independance could be a key factor into a director making a film version of the Sil. I am not saying Mr. Lucas should do this; I merely mean to say that someone like him in his position may be able to pull it off.

[Ñólendil]

Hey Le, you should come here more often.

The biggest problem with "adapting The Silmarillion" is that The Quenta Silmarillion itself (not even to speak of the Akallabeth and Rings of Power) is supposed to a collection of many different stories, put together and shortened. The Ainulindale and Of the Beginning of Days with info. from the Valaquenta would make a long movie. Of Túrin Turambar using info. from the Narn-I-Chîn-Húrin could easily fill up three hours in a movie theatre. Same goes for Of Beren and Lúthien and the Lay of Leithian. If you're going to film The Silmarillion and do it right you're going to make an unbelievable gamble and film 14 movies. It can be done, but it won't.

Zaents doesn't have the license anyway.

[MasterMothra]

it would be interesting to see the manifestation of the characters. i was rather impressed with the way sauron "looked" in the film. i could only imagine how morgoth or feanor would be portrayed, and what actor(s) would be chosen to do so.
i think that the hobbit would be the most logical choice to follow rotk. of course all of this depends on the revenue generated from the previous. i also tend to believe the "executives" will monitor how succesful the harry potter movies are. if harry potter can maintain profitable numbers over a span of 4-5 movies, then i think making the hobbit or sil could very well be a possibility. depends on how well the "fantasy" genre can maintain moviegoers attention.

be well

[Elvellon]

It is true it would be difficult to film the Silmarillion. But, as it has been said before, certain of its stories could be perfectly adapted to cinema. I think it all will depend if the remaining films of the LotR are successful or not (I agree that Harry Potter may be taken into account in this, but I can see more Middle Earth movies being made, even if Harry Potter series are unsuccessful, if market studies show that there is an interest in more Tolkien related movies).
If the LotR movies are successful , I see the movie industry looking for other Tolkien books to adapt to the cinema. The Hobbit would be the first choice, but what then? The Tale of Beren and Luthien, the Tale of the Children of Hurin or the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin would make excellent movies. Personally. I see the possibility of this being done.

[Finrod Felagund]

The Lord of the Rings spans a period of a few years at least after Frodo's flight. The Silmarillion spans a period of thousands of years and contains little dialogue. Now a specific part (eg. the Narn i Hurin) would make great movies.
A full Silmarillion movie would be cool but next to impossible.
And very, very, very, very, very, long.

[Ahab]

Who does currently hold the license to the Silmarillion and the other books?

[Ñólendil]

Ahab! A thousand welcomes from yours truly, Ranadwelt. I'm glad you made the trip.

The Tolkien Estate has the licenses required to all of Tolkien's writings, except The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

[Wayfarer]

AHAB???

Well...Riddle me that! Nice to see you, Spammer!

?????

[TinuvielChild]

hey Cirdan, i like your new avatar!! :D :D :D ;)



<-----post # 444! (and i just passed 400 last night!)

[Agburanar]

I agree that it's impossible to make a good film that will satisfy most people. The descriptions in the book leave enough to imagination to make many people's views of characters different.

Also he was probably speaking with the current technology in mind- it has advanved, but not really enough for this film. I think PJ was just being adventurous, let's hope in another 10 years or so someone else has a better go, but I'll save that for the movie forum!

[Finrod Felagund]

The Silmarillion isn't really a narrative story as much as a history. There is little actual character development except for Beren, Luthien and Turin.
There are also a lot of characters.
Difficult. Yes, extremely
Impossible, I think not!

[Pippin Skywalker]

Up to the sky you go my thread!

[Sparky]

I think it is possible to do a movie of the Sil, but if they did the entire Sil it would have to be a series of movies. Or as someone else said, they could just do individual stories. Beren and Luthien is a love story and an adventure, so surely it would attract a large group of people. The story of the children of Hurin would also make a good movie, but it would be a tragedy. If it was done well, I imagine it could get a few oscar nominations

[Lefty Scaevola]

I concur that most of the the stories in S would have to be filmed as seperate movies. The best cadidate for the first one would be Beren & Luthian.

[Agburanar]

Hmm. More cheesy elvish with subtitles. Nobody hurry to make it OK?

[Pippin Skywalker]

Here's my thoughts on the matter...or more of them anyway! :)


You know how Star Wars is the name of the franchise but the actual films have different titles? Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back,
Star Wars: Attack of the Clones. What could be done (MAYBE) is the Silmarillion could be Silmarillion: Beren and Luthien (perhaps finding a more stylish way to do it than that...but like the above.
The stories would be different ( i.e. their not all about Feanor or Turin) but their is a recognizable thread and "Feel" throughout. Of course a lot of dialogue will have to be written and perhaps as Peter Jackson did with LOTR roles will have to be extended various parts shortened and a number of other things. Naturally the FX, Scenery, Cinematography and so forth will have to be MUCH greater that LOTR since the Silmarilllion is set in a stranger even more fantastical time.

[DraztiK]

Or perhaps it would be better to make a TV-series out of it.

Or maybe not, cos if they do I probably wouldn't get to see it, livin in Belgium and all.

[Lollypopgurl]

Man, I would really like to see The Silmarillion if it was filmed. It's soooo cool!!!!! On my list of favorites LOTR and the Silmarillion are equal.

I just love it soooooooo much!!!!!!! I'm not the world's best reader (English is a second language to me). But whenever I go back and re-read paragraphs, chapters, or the whole thing; I find new stuff that I hadn't noticed before. There's just so much stuff in that book. I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D

[crickhollow]

I agree with the consensus. Each story in the books could very easily make a movie itself. Dialogue would have to be crafted out of virtually nothing, but it could be done. The biggest problem that I can see is that the individual stories are so loosely linked together that it would be hard for mainstream audiences to follow the connections.

[Bard]

Owkee, this is how it might be done:
First film: The bannishment of the Noldor up to the sack of Beleriand at the battle of the Bragollach. Main roles: Keanu Reeves (Feanor), Kevin Kostner (Fingolfin), Ian Mac.Gregor (Finrod) Uma Thurman (Melian) and I haven`t figured out who`s best in the role of Thingol or Turgon yet.
Second film: The destruction of beleriand up to the ending of the battle of unnumbered tears (including the lay of Leithian). Main roles: Hador Lorindol, Huor and Hurin, Beren, Luthien (Nathalie Portman) and the ones named up above.
Third film: Túrin Turambar to Earendil and the fall of Morgoth. Main roles: Joseph Fiennes (Turin), Nienor, Finduilas, Beleg, Gwindor, Brandir, Mim, Tuor, Maedhros, Idril and Earendil.
Maybe you guys could think about a good fillin of the roles? I think it could work out fine this way.

[Pippin Skywalker]

I think Jaoquin Pheonix might be an intersting Maglen (sp)? (eol's son).

Kevin Costner in here? I dunno....lol

A lot of times lesser known or even UNKOWNS actors are much better... Cate Blanchette is a better Galadriel than say Goldie Hawn or something like that...Anthony Hopkins could have done Saruman but he doesn't fit THAT role. Chris Lee is better. I think you can find some real Brilliant on fire actors if you look in the right places. Theater companies are good places to look. Though I am aware it helps to have at least few famous thespians to draw crowds.

I LOVE hearing your different casting thoughts...please feel free to share them!

[Bard]

Yeah Pippin, I`ve also thought about this Phoenix-guy, he made a great impression in Gladiator. I`ve also considered him for the role of Feanor, but I think he might be a better Maeglin. Owh another good actor in the role of Hurin (old Hurin) could be Sean Connery (another good one could have been Richard Harris alias Marcus Aurelius, but that ain`t possible anymore). Who else have we got than? Owh yeah, Silvester Stalone, Wesley Snipes, Arnold Schwarzenegger, J. Claude van Damme, Bruce Willis etc. can all be an Ork or Troll or something. Owh, lest I forget, the big negro-man in the Green Mile would make a great Troll to!
That`s it for now than.
Owh, and if I could play a role in the Sil. myself I`d like to play either Beleg Cuthalion or Finrod Felagund.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Um, sorry folks, but just like Finrod, there is no actor in existance that could do justice to the role of his character.:rolleyes:

[Lollypopgurl]

Natalie Portman as Luthien? I can imagine that. :)

[CaranIstar]

Keanu Reeves as Feanor? That's really scary...

Who was that bloke who played the Red Dragon.... I think he'd make a good Feanor.

Yeah, I'd agree with Joaquin Pheonix being a good Maeglin.

One wonders, what would the fair forms of Melkor and Sauron look like? Who'd play them before they became stuck in foul form?

[Alquagarwaen]

You should know Peregrin Tuk, that the director has changed many important concepts of the book, invented (like when the Nazgul saw Frodo in Osgiliath) lot of scenes, changed the characters´ way of thinking (like the attitudes of Faramir)and act, and distructed lot of VERY importatant things in both movies. Also did not included fundamental things (example: the succeding of Saruman and the nomination of Mithrandir as the new leader of the White Council).
As I see it, "The return of the king" is unfilmable in only one movie, becouse his duration is too long for only one movie.
But our "brilliant" and "excelent" director resumed this book in 3 hours of movie(becouse it was filmed the 3 movies at once, and the third one takes that time as long).
The director of art is a real shining mind, but the direction of the movie as story is a big piece of ****.:mad:

[Agburanar]

Well said. I hate directors who put their spin onto books instead of directing what's written.

[markedel]

The real question is whether a movie can convey the grandeur of the silmarillion. The story can be told, but its not just the plot that makes it great.

[Noahamir]

As others have pointed out, the best way to tackle the Simarillion would be to make a movie of one of the stories within the bigger book. Many have pointed to the story Of Beren and Luthien which I think would be the best also.

The way I imagine this movie would be to have a 15 to 20 minute Prologue much like in "Fellowship of the Ring" explaining the back history before diving into the main movie story.

The Prologue would have short scenes and voice narration showing Feanor crafting the Three Simarills, Melkor being released from the Halls of Mandos and then killing Feanor's father while stealing the three Jewels. Show Scenes of Melkor escaping to Middle Earth and placing them in an Iron Crown and Feanor's Oath to recapture the Jewels. Then show Feanor leading the Noldor out of Valinor back to Middle Earth and dying before the gates of Angband by the hands of the Balrog, Gothmag. End the Prologue by saying the Elves settled down in the land of Beariland for a long drawn out siege of Morgoth in Angband. I think this would be a very exciting prologue which could draw in the average movie viewer and inform them as well for the story ahead. Short but Sweet!

The movie would then flash forward to a present time of Beren wandering through the woods as an outlaw and discovering Luthien. They fall in love and Beren is sent on the quest to recover the Simaril by her father. The movie would be able to bring back Sauron from the earlier movies because he captures Beren and Luthien has to rescue him from Sauron. Beren and Luthien sneaking into Angband could surpass the Moria scenes in LOTR. Having the wolf biting off Berens hand would be a very dramatic scene. Beren's hunting down of the wolf would be the climax with Beren dying with Luthien dying soon after of grief. The happy ending would be Mandos returning Beren & Luthien to Middle Earth to live a short time as mortals together in Happiness.

This movie would have something for everybody. Middle Earth, a Love Story, and an Indiana Jones-type adventure story of rescuing a stolen artifact with a strong female character to boot. It seems to me that it could all be told in one movie also instead of having to be split up.

The only title I think would sell would be to have "Lord of the Rings" in the title even though it wouldn't technically be correct. Something like "The Lord of the Rings: The Quest for the Simaril" or something like that.

What do you think?

[Sween]

Originally posted by Noahamir
As others have pointed out, the best way to tackle the Simarillion would be to make a movie of one of the stories within the bigger book. Many have pointed to the story Of Beren and Luthien which I think would be the best also.

The way I imagine this movie would be to have a 15 to 20 minute Prologue much like in "Fellowship of the Ring" explaining the back history before diving into the main movie story.

The Prologue would have short scenes and voice narration showing Feanor crafting the Three Simarills, Melkor being released from the Halls of Mandos and then killing Feanor's father while stealing the three Jewels. Show Scenes of Melkor escaping to Middle Earth and placing them in an Iron Crown and Feanor's Oath to recapture the Jewels. Then show Feanor leading the Noldor out of Valinor back to Middle Earth and dying before the gates of Angband by the hands of the Balrog, Gothmag. End the Prologue by saying the Elves settled down in the land of Beariland for a long drawn out siege of Morgoth in Angband. I think this would be a very exciting prologue which could draw in the average movie viewer and inform them as well for the story ahead. Short but Sweet!

The movie would then flash forward to a present time of Beren wandering through the woods as an outlaw and discovering Luthien. They fall in love and Beren is sent on the quest to recover the Simaril by her father. The movie would be able to bring back Sauron from the earlier movies because he captures Beren and Luthien has to rescue him from Sauron. Beren and Luthien sneaking into Angband could surpass the Moria scenes in LOTR. Having the wolf biting off Berens hand would be a very dramatic scene. Beren's hunting down of the wolf would be the climax with Beren dying with Luthien dying soon after of grief. The happy ending would be Mandos returning Beren & Luthien to Middle Earth to live a short time as mortals together in Happiness.

This movie would have something for everybody. Middle Earth, a Love Story, and an Indiana Jones-type adventure story of rescuing a stolen artifact with a strong female character to boot. It seems to me that it could all be told in one movie also instead of having to be split up.

The only title I think would sell would be to have "Lord of the Rings" in the title even though it wouldn't technically be correct. Something like "The Lord of the Rings: The Quest for the Simaril" or something like that.

What do you think?

That would make for a good first couple of movies. I think that it could go on after that with the story of Tour.

Imigin this starting off in the same vain as Fellowship they show the battle of unnumbererd tears (just imigin that) and Hour and Turgons words to each other 'A new hope should arise to from us' (or whatever the hell they say) Then flash forward to a conan type start of Tuor been taken as a slave then escaping and been an outlaw then his meeting with Ulmo and his journey to Gondalin. This could be overlaid with the story of the smilials and the sack of doriath and how elwig came to be in possession of the jelwes (this would add some action to the first movie) would end with elwing escaping and Tuors maridge and the birth of Earendil the blessed.

The second movie would pick up with the theme that would of been established in the first movie of Maeglin's jeliousy of Idril and Tuor love. And his eventualy betral to morgoth. Elwing could be shown at the havens hideing from morgoth as he continued to attack breigland. The big climax of course would the fall of gondalin (imigin all them balrogs and dragons) and the escape of Tuor to the havens and the meeting of Earendil and Elwing. The very end could be them sending out ships to seak the valar.

The third would include the birth of Elrond and Elros and Earendil taking the smalil and sailing off into the west eventually finding the valar then the eventual host comming out the west the blessing of his ship and the desruction and defeat of morgoth. Infact by the sound of it we probably have a good 3 movies there and at least two for Beren and luithiens story.

Now if that does not sound like a good movie i dont know what does.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Noahamir
As others have pointed out, the best way to tackle the Simarillion would be to make a movie of one of the stories within the bigger book. Many have pointed to the story Of Beren and Luthien which I think would be the best also.

The way I imagine this movie would be to have a 15 to 20 minute Prologue much like in "Fellowship of the Ring" explaining the back history before diving into the main movie story.

The Prologue would have short scenes and voice narration showing Feanor crafting the Three Simarills, Melkor being released from the Halls of Mandos and then killing Feanor's father while stealing the three Jewels. Show Scenes of Melkor escaping to Middle Earth and placing them in an Iron Crown and Feanor's Oath to recapture the Jewels. Then show Feanor leading the Noldor out of Valinor back to Middle Earth and dying before the gates of Angband by the hands of the Balrog, Gothmag. End the Prologue by saying the Elves settled down in the land of Beariland for a long drawn out siege of Morgoth in Angband. I think this would be a very exciting prologue which could draw in the average movie viewer and inform them as well for the story ahead. Short but Sweet!

The movie would then flash forward to a present time of Beren wandering through the woods as an outlaw and discovering Luthien. They fall in love and Beren is sent on the quest to recover the Simaril by her father. The movie would be able to bring back Sauron from the earlier movies because he captures Beren and Luthien has to rescue him from Sauron. Beren and Luthien sneaking into Angband could surpass the Moria scenes in LOTR. Having the wolf biting off Berens hand would be a very dramatic scene. Beren's hunting down of the wolf would be the climax with Beren dying with Luthien dying soon after of grief. The happy ending would be Mandos returning Beren & Luthien to Middle Earth to live a short time as mortals together in Happiness.

This movie would have something for everybody. Middle Earth, a Love Story, and an Indiana Jones-type adventure story of rescuing a stolen artifact with a strong female character to boot. It seems to me that it could all be told in one movie also instead of having to be split up.

The only title I think would sell would be to have "Lord of the Rings" in the title even though it wouldn't technically be correct. Something like "The Lord of the Rings: The Quest for the Simaril" or something like that.

What do you think? Geez! You left out the most important character.:D :p

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Geez! You left out the most important character.:D :p

whos that then?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Sween
whos that then? My dear Sween, need you ask? Anyway, I'm sure that Felagund was not really left out, but just not mentioned since the Quest of the Silmaril couldn't happen without him. But, I was just teasing:p

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
My dear Sween, need you ask? Anyway, I'm sure that Felagund was not really left out, but just not mentioned since the Quest of the Silmaril couldn't happen without him. But, I was just teasing:p

oh right im reading both books (the sil and lord of the rings) similtauously at the moment so im a bit confussed. what u think of my layout for the rest of the story?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Sween
oh right im reading both books (the sil and lord of the rings) similtauously at the moment so im a bit confussed. what u think of my layout for the rest of the story? Well, like I said early in this thread, I don't think it could be done and do justice to the Sil. To see a battle like the Nirnaeth though would truly be something on the big silver screen.

[Noahamir]

Movies can never match the complexity of a Book, so in my mind I was trying to imagine instead how a portion of the Simarillion could be translated into a movie that would try and reach a mass audiences as well as fans of the book. :)

Just a fun thing for me to think about while I was commuting to work this morning, pretending I was Peter Jackson, and thought I would share! :)

Yep, I forgot to put in two major characters, Finrod and Huan, who helped in the Quest, but I was afraid my post was getting too long. Hehe! They would be great characters in the movie also! Haun would bring in the "dog-lovers" audience too ;)

[Noahamir]

U confused me for a bit with Finrod's dwarvish name, Felagund! :p

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Noahamir
U confused me for a bit with Finrod's dwarvish name, Felagund! :p Oh. Sorry.:p

Seriously though, like I have said, for me a movie of the Silmarillion would not work, at least to my satisfaction. Finrod being my favorite of all Tolkien characters for me, just couldn't be properly depicted. The Silmarillion is such a complex story that it would be a monumental undertaking. I think too, that with the release of the LotRs movies, it would never have its just recognition and would always live in the shadow of those movies.

[Agburanar]

I don't think it should be done at all, ever. There is a reason why books are written as books, not as movie or play scripts and Tolkien's stories are some of these. Films are inadequate to carry their character.

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

If I could be in charge I would probably do this:

Start off similar to FOTR by showing several minutes of historical footage to set the stage, perhaps twice as much as in FOTR. This would cover the Music of the Ainur, the coming of the Valar and their strife with Morgoth. The destruction of the Two Trees and theft of the Silmarils could also be a main theme. It would end with the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos as the Noldor leave for Middle-Earth.

I would probably center my movie around the Siege of Angband with a focus on Fingolfin, Fingon and Turgon. But I would begin in truly magnificent fashion, showing Feanor's fight with multiple Balrogs. Later in the movie, I would probably include Finrod too, maybe being killed by Sauron himself instead of a werewolf, to add weight to the ancient evilness of Sauron. Doriath and Nargothrond would have to be left out for the most part, but maybe referenced in the movie.

Galadriel could play a large part as well as the emergence of Sauron as the right hand of Morgoth to tie in with the LOTR movies.

The breaking of the siege and Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth could be a highlight. I would probably end the movie with the Fall of Gondolin and then the wrath of the Valar.

At the end I would include some sort of an extended scene that shows Sauron escaping, to wet peoples appetites for the sequel that covers the second age.

Don't be affended by changes to the book, this is only how I think the movie could realistically be made.


I know....Impossible.

[Pippin Skywalker]

I must say I like a lot of your ideas.
But also I think this film should be as true to Tolkien as possible since it was the story closest to his heart (encompassing his love for his wife Edith and the loss of his friends and the general HORROR of the First World War).

One strange idea...is filming this as a SILENT film. Yes..you read right SILENT. It would have a lot of visual expression, would require BETTER actors who are really required to emote, and just the vast glorious visuals with rich subtitles would make it very interesting. It would also give the audience the feel of not so much watching a movie but almost "dreaming" about it. You feel like you tookl a time machine and are watching the actual events.
I'm still not sure I would do this for sure but it strikes me as a very fresh,unique idea.


Another thing:

All the actors mentioned here for roles in the Silmarillion are Hollywood actors. The best place to find TRUE QUALITY talent is from the pool of actors that perform on the British and Broadway stage. They are truly based on merit more than looks because that form of acting is more difficult. You want a STELLAR cast? Look for instance in the Royal Shakespeare Company. You might find a guy who can wow your socks off as Feanor.

[Agburanar]

Don't be too eager to rate the RSC. I don't want to put down british talent, but they survive mainly on reputation. Their last Shakespeare season was not particularly impressive, more commercial than interesting.

[Pippin Skywalker]

Perhaps so. But I still think you can find a lot of talented stage actors even outside RSC. Also there are even movie actors who are not that famous but are nonetheless outstanding.
If I was casting I would want to find people who look as elvish as possible. It's tough but to me elves have thin faces and sort of almond shaped eyes. In the FX department I would ask them to do something to the eyes which makes them almost glow.

Feanor for instance (to me) would have jet black hair, very pale face and bright deep glowing blue eyes.

[Agburanar]

Oh don't get me wrong. There's a heap of good British talent, especially outside the RSC!:D

[Elfhelm]

As it happens I am fooling around with the Beren and Luthien chapter in this regard. There are a few problems that come up immediately.

1. Huan and Carcaroth - my personal feeling is that wolves are not evil and I find no wolf in Tolkien that is not evil, so I have no qualms with turning Carcaroth into a sort of ur-Warg. I feel as strongly on this issue as JRRT felt about the destruction of trees, so I apologize to any that would offend but I couldn't possibly permit wolves to be denegrated in this way.

2. Talking animals - well, if it must be then it should be done sparingly, but once you open that box a whole new set of expectations and disbelief suspensions are called up. Huan only speaks three times, and Carcaroth is a monster (see point 1) so it may be dealt with as exceptional rather than the norm.

3. Vampires - The thing is, there are so many different takes on vampires in the modern theatrical/TV audience that you almost have to explain your version of vampires in order to use them, and JRRT's vampires aren't the same as other people's, which makes things even more complicated. So, since they only use a vampire disguise, I think I'll change the travelling costume to something that doesn't have to be explained.

4. The Silmaril - now bear with me on this. The story that Tolkien dreamt up in the trenches when he was missing Edith was about a young man, careworn, who finds love in the arms of a carefree being. The girl's father disallows the union and sends him on an impossible quest. The boy is unable to fulfill the quest without the girl. She saves him. He tries to go off alone again, she insist on going along, and together they fulfill the quest, but - it kills the boy. This was the birth of the Silmaril. At first it was just the object of an impossible quest. Over, what, 40 years it became one of three, associated with a curse, a kinslaying, and so much more. So what does it matter that the whole Silmarillion saga come into play. The boy goes off to get it and when he finally hands (ahem) it to the girl's father, he's dead. That's a story from the trenches, and the Silmarillion is a different story.

5. Number of scenes - As is, there are about a dozen settings. I should make one thing clear, my theoretical problem is of a stage production. The more scenes, the more difficult it becomes to do. I'd like to bring it down to four scene changes. One set I am imagining is a changeable court. It can be Thingol's court, get altered slightly and become Finrod's court, get darkened and become Sauron's court, and twisted into Morgoth's court. Another set is "your basic forest" which can have Hirilorn added or removed, or a waterfall added and removed. Many different encounters happen in the changeable forest - Luthien dances, Beren hollers that he is a friend while holding up the ring, two sons of Feanor get their butts kicked, Beren tries to abandon Luthien, Luthien later heals him in a forest, and with the addition of Hirilorn and a waterfall at points, this pretty much fills out the set problems.

6. The prologue - There is already so much that I think we can skip watching Beren take revenge on a dozen Orcs for killing his father.

7. The epilogue - Now this is a major problem. Up until this point he hasn't stretched credulity beyond all disbelief, but Luthien appealling to Mandos and her choice of mortality, their return to a dismal father and their subsequent decision to live together apart from her father's people and all the misery involved in that is cool for us, but it takes away the real zing of the story - which is that a father can not stop a daughter from doing what she pleases, and any attempt to force your will on her will result in a sundering between you that may never be made whole again. So her lament at the foot of Hirilorn, Beren's burial, and the Silmaril in all its useless beauty in the grasp of Thingol should be enough to convey the meaning of the story.

8. The hook - I am thinking that it makes more sense for Thingol to imprison his daughter FIRST, then send Beren on the quest. Otherwise, why didn't Luthien just defy him from the start? The couple seems a little wishy-washy trying to please the father when all they ever had to do was take each other's hands and flee. And the real life equivalent is the cause of this oddity. Tolkien was young and he was told that Edith was too old for him and all he had to do was defy authority, but he didn't. So if authority already has imprisoned the object of your affection, it's a lot more respectable to go off questing to win her back.

9. Not very much dialogue in the story. It would have to be made up.

So as you can see, it's practically impossible. And the Tolkien fans would hate all the changes. Imagine trying to make a huge talking hound and a huge talking wolf have a dogfight that the SPCA would permit that ends up killing both of them, as your climax. It works better in a book.

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

Elfhelm:

I agree wholeheartedly about Beren and Luthien. It is touching, but I've always liked that story least of all the Silmarillion. It just has too many instances that are totally unbelievable. For example:

The talking creatures, as you said above

Sauron being defeated by Huan

Luthien putting a sleep spell on Morgoth who was unbelievably powerful

The whole Vampire/Werewolf bit. He should never had included those terms. They stray from the whole feel of the rest of his works and are not believable.

Luthien being able to simply use "her arts" to disguise them as the agents of Morgoth and Sauron. Yes she had Maiar blood in her, but come on!

These are the reasons I left out this portion of the Sil in my post above, regarding the making of a movie.

[Falagar]

(just to answer the thread title:)
IMHO, it can't be done. It just can't.

[Pippin Skywalker]

I'm sorry you think badly of Beren & Luthien's tale because of those things. I find many things in that tale very enriching to the Sil not the other way around. Personally I WOULD keep the werewolf idea possibly the vampire one too if I made the film. It made the time period more frightening and those who did brave deeds seem braver. The point is the world of the Silmarillion was a lot scarier than living in the War of the Ring's time. You had morgoth (even the name is scarier than sauron), sauron as a smaller officer under him, werewolves, orcs, dragons,giant bats, Ungoliant the giant spider and Balrogs a plenty for just 4.99 a wing! (:D) Also it was much grander because all the greatest elves were in existance. That is part of what make the Sil so awesome...it's scale and scope is broad as an ocean.
I think if done right...with someone who pays enough attention to the story and the creation of dialogue and yet stays as true to Tolkien as possible (putting special effects second to these things) it could be marvelous.
Remember few liked Bakshi's LOTR and if people had become too cynical said "Well they can only make it aweful don't make the film again" then we would have closed the door to Jackson's much more reasonable adaption. The most important thing is a good director who has a record of being story driven. IMHO I would NOT pass this project to George Lucas or even Peter Jackson because it should be filmed in a different way than those directors. No Jar Jar Huan if you know what I mean. :)

[Elfhelm]

and no Clifford Huan either. :)

[Fingolfin_1st]

if anything should be made into a film from the silmarillion i believe it should be the story of turin and of the battle of sudden flame i really want to see fingolfin and melkor battle it out

[Agburanar]

There is a very easy response to this question. It goes:

No.

[Pippin Skywalker]

I have yet ANOTHER idea for filming the Silmarillion! I listened to an audio tape this very day of Christopher Tolkien reading the story of Beren and Luthien and as he read the text and lines of course my imagination was envisioning everything he was saying. My thougt is what if the film was narrated or rather the story the book itself was read from the book and the events happened before our eyes while the narration/reading covered it. It's odd and different but just one idea of many.

By the way how on earth do we potray the Valar and Maiar? Of course we could cut them out like good ol' Tom Bombadil and just have Olorin do a musical number on how he will be around till the war of the ring, but I think the wrath of the fans would be as terrible as Feanor's over the silmarils. lol.

In fact to lighten things up I will make comic occurences in ME in the time of Silmarillion. And before you beg public hanging to be legalized remember it's only a book as I am just a mortal lol.

Olorin does song and dance number "Gandalf and the Ring" to the tune of "Putting on the Ritz".

Feanor while he still has the Silmarils impresses the Valar with his juggling skill. And to those who worry about the harm of the fair things he says calmly " Oh!Unbreakable Glass!"

sauron tells morgoth his aspirations to become a dark lord. he mutters ideas about making a master ring to rule all those stupid middle earthlings instead of using massive force. morgoth proceeds to glance at him several times in silence and after a few minutes none save the nearest balrogs heard "your such a dork."

Turin meets Glaurung and is AMAZED at the size and stature of the creature. When the creature begins to speak the mortal is even more amazed. "what," he says "I thought talking dragons were only in fairy tales!!!"

Thingol is FURIOUS that Beren DARES to ask for the hand of Luthien. Beren in turn is later furious that a wolf DARES to take the hand of Beren!


Huan can only speak three times. He summed it up in three great sentences: "There are three things only you'll need to know: (1) Go in DISGUISE to morgoth (2) I'll lead you to Beren (3) I'm hungry"


WWF originated from the Silmarillion concerning the great battle of Huan and wolf-sauron. It stands for Wolf Wrestling Federation.


LOL..I hope you find this to your tastes...and yes Tolkien I'm just kidding. :) :D

[Pippin Skywalker]

OH! have some good humor! I do! LOL :D

I think it would be neat to show ents in the Silmarillion since they began in that time. I would show a lot of the Valar. :)

[Tessar]

Of course when he said that, I'm assuming, we didn't have the kind of digital power we have today. Last YEAR we didn't have as much digital control as we have today.

I mean look at Final Fantasy, it wasn't a GREAT movie, but watching the previews I had no idea that it was supposed to be digital.

I think it could be done, I just don't think many people would be happy with it because of all the things that were described so well in the books that it drew a picture in your head of what it should look like... But then the people who make the movie decide that it would be so much BETTER if they changed this or that just a bit... And then after that bit a little more would have to be changed it fit in... And more.

*shrug* can it be done? Yes.

Can it be done well? I think so, but it would be hard and you would have to find some one who actually wanted to make the Sil and not "the sil", if you know what I mean.

[azalea]

There are some scenes in there that I would LOVE to see live on screen. I could see three movies dramatizing the major parts/ events: The Ainulindale through ch. 12, ch. 13 through Beren and Luthien, then the rest to the end. But I agree -- it should only be done by someone who would do it justice and stay as true to the text as possible.

[Pippin Skywalker]

What do you think John Rhys Davies as Hurin? (if you forget the whole dwarf thing). He's lost weight and he has deep voice. He has a lot of range and is not to old.

Chris Lee is another possibility :D He is tall and proud to be a lord of men :D


Jude Law as Maeglin? Just ideas.

[Ruinel]

So many of us love The Sil (not the sil) that if a movie were actually made I feel most of us would be highly disappointed. What would I see taken out without much protest? What would I not miss? My answer is: none and none. Every word, every chapter (even The Creation by Eru) would be sorely missed.

Even with the technology available today, or even in 10 years, no movie made about The Sil could be to my satisfaction. (Besides, who would play Finrod Felegund? NO human is hot enough to play his character.)

Oh, yes, by the way, I was actually happy that the part about Tom Bombodil was NOT in FotR movie. *draws Elven sword, holds up shield and waits for the attack*

[Melko Belcha]

For the full story I say don't do it.

There is just way to many gaps in the story that work in the book but no way on film, and I would hate to see other people try to fill in those gaps.

Of Beren and Luthien, Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Of Turin Turambar, and Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin would make great movies as long as they stuck to the story.

Of Turin Turambar would be my first choice. The ending of that story with the leaves falling as Turin throws himself onto his sword. You could even have it begin with Hurin meeting Morwen at the grave, then the story be a flashback of Hurin's memory.