the original breaking of the fellowship

[Vardasoroniel]

i am just re-reading the silmarillion, and was struck by a section in the 'valaquenta':

". . . Among them Nine were of chief power and residence; but one is removed from their number and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwe and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aule, Mandos, Nienna, and Orome. . . ."

Melkor(Morgoth), of course, is the one removed - his downfall brought on by his own self-pride and greed turning eventually to complete evil. "He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness."

these passages started me thinking about the fellowship of the 9 in the LOTR, and especially about Boromir. I was wondering if this fellowship of the third age was a re-cycling of the original 'fellowship', and if by extension, there would be one more moment of grace for Morgoth and a possibility for redemption as seen in Boromir's recanting of his selfish actions which stirred up trouble and grief for the other members of the LOTR fellowship.

what do you think?

[afro-elf]

don't have much to add but it is an interesting thought

[Findegil]

Well, when you read Myths Transformed in The History of Middle-Earth volume 10 Morgoth's Ring you will find that Melkor had a chance to reconcile with the Valar. The trembling point was at the end of the war of powers when he discovered, that he was no longer able to daunt Manwe with his eyes. But in contrast to Boromir Melkor did not relent. He sticked to his way of terror and war and only feigned piece and friendship to the Valar.

Regards
Findegil

[Elf Girl]

This is a little philosophical, but...Maybe that's what Morgoth did to Middle-Earth. He made the free peoples doomed to repeat this loop over and over again, and Boromir's death was a triumph, because he repented.

[Ararax]

Well history repetes its self in more ways then one

[Ñólendil]

So is Sam Gamgee Mandos?

[Vardasoroniel]

Originally posted by Findegil
Well, when you read Myths Transformed in The History of Middle-Earth volume 10 Morgoth's Ring you will find that Melkor had a chance to reconcile with the Valar. The trembling point was at the end of the war of powers when he discovered, that he was no longer able to daunt Manwe with his eyes. But in contrast to Boromir Melkor did not relent. He sticked to his way of terror and war and only feigned piece and friendship to the Valar.

yes, he did not relent then, but i was thinking more of the cycle of repeating mythos as an extended spiral that turns upon itself, round and round, but never closes itself off. wondering, then, if the account of eru and the valar and their relationship to the harmony of themselves and their created universe might cycle around again in a new creation and a new universe (after all, there is all that VOID to work with) in which melkor has an epiphany and repents.

is that even a possibility? or did his descent into Darkness & Discord drive all the light and harmony from him?

[Vardasoroniel]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
So is Sam Gamgee Mandos?

i wasn't thinking of an exact, 1:1 correlation between the individual valar/valier and the LOTR members.

[Ararax]

id say mandros would be gandalf or aragorn

[Vardasoroniel]

Originally posted by Ararax
id say mandros would be gandalf or aragorn

if i had to draw direct parallels about the 9 and the 9 - i might do it this way:

Manwe ----- Gandalf
Ulmo -------- Frodo
Mandos ---- Aragorn
Varda ------ Legolas
Aule -------- Gimli
Yavanna -- Sam
Nienna ----- Pippin
Orome ----- Merry

[Ararax]

i like that comparison very nice

[Ñólendil]

I was only half-heartedly making fun of the idea. I am actually interested in the parallels between the Fellowship and the Aratar.

I like your comparisons too, only I don't Pippin really goes with Nienna. Gandalf or Frodo would be more fitting, though Frodo is good "as" Ulmo and Gandalf "as" Manwe (Gandalf in fact served Manwe and Varda). But it is probably the best that can be done. Frodo could be put with Nienna and Legolas with Ulmo too, but this leaves Pippin with Varda.

[Ararax]

who created the dwarves though i think gimil would be best suited with him

[Wayfarer]

is that even a possibility? or did his descent into Darkness & Discord drive all the light and harmony from him?

Not all. But he slowly became more corrupt until he was cast out, and there is nothing to suggest he wouldn't continue.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ararax
who created the dwarves though i think gimil would be best suited with him Aule.

[markedel]

No one is all evil, at least not in Tolkien's world. In Catholicism (as I understand it, as I'm not Catholic) you can always find redemption.

[Renille]

Yeps, you're right Markedel. I am a Catholic, and we do believe that God always gives people second, third, millionth chances if they are truly seeking forgiveness.

With the Pippin/Nienna thing... I almost think Pippin could be Orome and Merry could be Nienna. Merry's alot more serious and melencholy than Pip. ( On the side, wasn't Nessa one of the Valar, also? Or was she a Maia? I can't remember.)

[Ñólendil]

There are six Valar not listed here: Vairë the Weaver, Estë the Healer, Lórien Master of Visions and Dreams, Vána the Everyoung, Tulkas and Nessa. But there were 8 chiefs of the Valar (nine counting Melkor), who are called the Aratar: Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Mandos, Nienna and Orome.

[Cirdan]

I'm preety sure Melkor is the embodiment of evil just so it has a name. Either that or he was suffering from painful itching and swelling.:) Ulmo was, at first, swayed by Melkor, but later proved the most active of the Valar. Frodo is a symbol of innocence and purity. Resisting the ring became overwhelming, and but for gollum, who knows how it may have ended (except JRRT).

[Dwarven Sen]

Look I have read the books and I see where you are coming from but i just don't think frodo is a good ulmo basically because ulmo is great and frodo is irritating i'm sorry to offend you but thats how i feel surely aragorn would be more ulmo being of numenorean descent and i also apologise for my punctuation or rarther lack of it:confused:

[Cirdan]

frodo irritating? could be a problem since he is the protagonist. I don't see the link to the valar, sorry. many characters have similar traits and some human traits are not well represented )for good reason). It's clever but falls a bit short. the numerology thing is very common. 1, 3, 7, 12 9 :confused: well, john lennon liked it, but... good thread!

[Dwarven Sen]

can you blame me for finding him irritating he just complains i mean hobbits are annoying but he just takes the biscuit pip and merry become knights and it takes both sam and gollum to keep him going fool of a ringbearer. Mortal men are abit boring and weak elfs dwarfs maiar valar all cool but men no:confused:

[Cirdan]

no blame. I think he could complain a bit what with all the wraith stabbing and troll spearing, and spider biting, and the death march up an active volcano. I like all the characters because the story wouldn't be the same without them. I some fabulous elf lord rode an eagle to orodruin and threw the ring in it wouldn't be much of a story. I must say that Saruman is my least favorite character... bit of a turncoat.

[Dwarven Sen]

Excuse me he wasn't the only fellow with problems you know gandalf went and fell down a chasm i knew it would be an american that took the most pitiful hobbits side you can't even play rugby. I prefer dwarfs to elves but if a dwarf fell off an eagle it would be dwarf jam. I totally agree about saruman though and may best friend elf master xk agrees about great elves but she's in an art lesson now so i'll talk for her

[Cirdan]

Your excused.

[Vardasoroniel]

it's fun to try to match up the members of the Aratar and the FOTR, but let's not get too wound up in a point by point dissection of the similarities/dissimilarities of the Aratar vs the FOTR.

frodo, et al, are not meant to be reincarnations of the 8 chief valar in the third age; and boromir is certainly no melkor/morgoth in his self-oriented pursuit of his own aims for the ring.

what interested me is the similarity in the overall desired outcome of each group - the FOTR and the Aratar. both were deeply concerned in what was best for the peoples and places of middle earth; both groups were desirous of restoring harmony. associated with each group was a character whose aims for middle earth were not in line with the supposed aims of the group as a whole. this character brought great discord to each group. but, in the FOTR, this character, boromir was able to eventually see how his self-oriented view needed to be put aside for the greater good. he was 'redeemed', as it were, through his epiphany after his confrontation with frodo, and was able through his subsequent actions to regain his place in the fellowship.

this was a step that we do not see, as yet, in the relationship of Melkor to the other Valar. & what i was originally wondering was whether the Fellowhip in the FOTR reflected a possibility that Melkor would/could come back into harmony with the other Valar.

[Ñólendil]

but i just don't think frodo is a good ulmo

I only associate the two because of Frodo's fixation with the Sea.

I think he could complain a bit what with all the wraith stabbing and troll spearing,

Uruk spearing. It's a Troll in the movie.

[Dwarven Sen]

Frodo did not have a fixation with the sea
merry said he was good with water
if anything frodo should learn to stay away because of his parents and excuse me mister nolendil if we arent accurate enough for you
gandalf should be mandos because of the fellowship he sees the furthest all the way down the chasm under the bridge of khazad dum in fact he worked for lorien and nienna mandos siblings

merry is more of a nienna in rohan all he ever does is mope pippin finds people to wrestle with and is more brave so hes a tulkas or orome

[Ñólendil]

You're inaccuracy is certainly excused. :p I'm just a nit-picker, pay me no mind.

I do hold that Frodo had a fixation with the sea. Read The Sea-Bell in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, or Frodo's dreams in Tom's house.

[Wayfarer]

Frodo was not exactly fixated with the see itself, but he longed for the sea as a passage to the west.

That's my opinion.

[Ñólendil]

You're probably right.

[Wayfarer]

What? Is that surprise?

[Ñólendil]

Is what surprise? I feel so confused.

[Dwarven Sen]

Its alright to like the sea but I wouldn't say he was obsessed I think that everybody has an oppurtunity to be rightoccasionally apart from me whose thick

[Vardasoroniel]

i suggested the frodo as ulmo analogy because like ulmo, frodo 'listened' to the voice of evil(the ring as it spoke to him) and gave in to it for a while, as did ulmo who listened to the lies of morgoth and believed them for a while.

[Ñólendil]

Oh, that was Ulmo's servant Ossë, not Ulmo himself. Or anyway as far as I can remember.

[Wayfarer]

Yes. That was Osse.

[Dwarven Sen]

I think that of all the valar the one most likely to listen to morgoth would be aule but he wouldn't he is cool because he created the dwarves. The point I think I am trying to get at is that melkoe was the weakest of the valar because he gave in to the power. Only some of the maiar did aswell but some were good and were strong

[Vardasoroniel]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Oh, that was Ulmo's servant Ossë, not Ulmo himself. Or anyway as far as I can remember.

yes, you're right (smacks herself in the forehead!) it was ossë who got taken in by morgoth. sometimes i get those water guys confused ;)

i think, i originally, thought frodo might coincide with ulmo because he was the one described as being 'alone'. and i had remembered that line about 'to bear a ring of power is to be alone'.

[Dwarven Sen]

If we are talking about being alone, then Aragorn would be a good Ulmo because he wandered the wild alone for close to sixty years. However Gandalf was alone for close to 3000 years. You choose

[Elfhelm]

I think Tolkien was well aware of certain numerological meanings because he liked so many medieval things. And certain numbers like 3, 7 and 9 are particularly strong. I wish I could find a good reference on it, but I think 9 stands for completion or wholeness. I may come back later with a link for traditional numerology. Not that I go for it, but some other writers, like Shakespeare, also employ the device.

[Dwarven Sen]

3 is supposed to be the main number of the occult, and witchcraft, and magic. perhaps the elven rings are more powerful because they are three. if you are with people you dont trust ,you should go around in a three because two will always watch the other one.
7 is my lucky number, as is 13.

[azalea]

3 is also used in most fairy tales as the magic number; there are usually 3 wishes, 3 sons, 3 tasks in a quest. It not only had to do w/ the Trinity, but also the triangle has some very special and unique mathematical properties (don't ask me what they are I can't remember:rolleyes: ), so that may be a reason, too.
Likewise for the number 7, though to a lesser extent. I don't think the septagon (or heptagon, whatever) has any special properties besides being hard to draw!;)

[Dwarven Sen]

7 was consiered evil because it is a prime number and 3 was holy but because of the wichcraft tension (not helped by shakespears macbeth) was considered bad and polluted

[azalea]

Then of course 9 is three 3s, so there you go!

[Dwarven Sen]

Indeed, but the point of this thread was actually supposed to be how time has looped, and patterns evolve, which gets us back onto the illuvatar conversation on the other thread.