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Rumble
02-23-2000, 09:37 PM
I got the following from the Tolkien sarcasme page, I've always found this theory quite interesting:

At last, the mystery of Tom Bombadil's identity has been solved.

Ready?

Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person.

1. We never hear of Tom at all during the whole of the First Age. The Nine Rings aren't forged until the Second Age. QED.

2. You never see the two of them together.

3. In the first part of Fellowship of the Ring, the Nazgul are sent to the Shire to look for the wandering Baggins. Interestingly, Tom says to Frodo at the dinner-table: "...I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering... But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder" (Fellowship p.137 hardback, emphasis mine: note the fear Tom has of his master, Sauron!).

4. In Tom's questioning of the Hobbits, JRRT notes that "there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders."
(Fellowship p. 144) I think he was concerned that his double-life might have been noticed. Interestingly, Tom immediately changes the subject of conversation!
Furthermore, the One Ring had no effect on Tom - which seems consistent with Tolkien's observations about how the Nazgul would have handled the same priceless object (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #246): "They were... in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring."

5. It's also interesting to note that Tom could see Frodo clearly while Frodo was wearing the Ring (Fellowship p. 144 hardback) - just as the Witch-king could see Frodo clearly while he was wearing the Ring at Weathertop! (Fellowship p.208 hardback)

6. Perhaps most damning, however, is the incident with the Barrow-wights (Fellowship pp. 151-155), where Tom - with nothing more than a few simple words (p. 154) - commands the Barrow-wight to leave. And it does, without argument. Why would the Wight be so completely under Tom's control? Because in his alternate guise as the Witch-king of Angmar, Tom ordered the Wight to inhabit the barrow in the first place! Turning to Return of the King, Appendix A, p. 321, "evil spirits out of Angmar... entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." Obviously the Witch-king was reponsible for sending the wights there; just as obviously, the Witch-king (disguised as Tom) would be capable of ordering them to leave!
(This is related to another passage, which has since been brought to my attention. On Fellowship page 158 hardback, Tom is guiding the Hobbits back towards the Road when he gazes towards the borders of Cardolan. "Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long time ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much" Since Tom, as the Witch-king, was the one who destroyed the kingdom of Cardolan, it's little wonder that he wouldn't say much about his involvement. Perhaps his remembering "something sad" reveals some remorse at being the instrument of Cardolan's destruction...?)

...Yep: I think we have an airtight case here. :)

...It's worth noting that, after the Witch-king was dead, Gandalf said he was "going to have a long talk with Bombadil" (Return of the King, p. 275). Curiously, he never tells anyone about the meeting later... and he's right there at the Grey Havens at the end of the book, undelayed it seems by long conversation. I think we can therefore theorize that Gandalf made it to the Old Forest, but that Tom (once the so-called "Witch-king" had died) was nowhere to be found!

...Of course, all this brings up the curiosity of motive. What would make the Witch-King of Angmar sport such a double identity? I suppose that the Witch-king, once of proud Numenorean ancestry, felt trapped by the guise of evil which Sauron had tricked him into, and in the fullness of time forged this alternate identity for himself so that he could occasionally feel happy, helpful, noble, and more at one with himself and his lineage. The situation is perhaps analagous to a crossdresser who, feeling trapped in a man's body, would occasionally assume the identity of a woman. It therefore makes sense that the Witch-king's other identity would be so peculiarly enigmatic, and perhaps sheds light on JRRT's observation in Letters #144: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

...Who else would be aware of Tom's double-life, I wonder? Since Tom repeatedly claims to have been around "before the river and the trees", and indeed even claims to be older than the Ents (Fellowship p. 142), surely the eldest of the Elves would know he was lying. Elrond plays along with Tom in public, being kind enough not to reveal his secret, but also seems to know that Tom and the Witch-king are one and the same; hence his refusal to give the Ring to Tom for safekeeping (Fellowship p. 278-9): "Power to defy the Enemy is not in him."

anduin
02-24-2000, 12:17 AM
WOW!

I will never think about Tom Bombadil ever again in the same way!

IronParrot
02-24-2000, 01:13 AM
Time for me to read LOTR again.

bmilder
02-24-2000, 03:12 AM
LOL, but who knows, it could be true :lol:

IronParrot
02-24-2000, 03:23 AM
Tolkien isn't around to say otherwise.

Elanor
02-24-2000, 04:57 AM
cute, Rumble, cute. ;)

Fat middle
02-24-2000, 10:52 AM
Yeah, now i understand. The Witch-King fell in love with Goldberry, but he need the ring to be inmortal, so he began to deceive Sauron and every now and then he fled to the his love nest at the Old Forest. :cool:

Darth Tater
02-25-2000, 01:38 AM
Finally a logical theory!

anduin
02-26-2000, 05:23 AM
Logical.......heh ;)

ArwenUndomiel02
02-28-2000, 04:48 PM
The hobbits were right there in his house!!1 He could have had them right then. HE HAD THE RING! He put it on and everything! Oh, yeah. I'm back!

morgoth
03-11-2000, 11:52 AM
I AGREE, HE COULD HAVE TAKEN THE RING WHILST IN THE OLD FOREST, AND WHY BOTHER TO SAVE MERRY AND PIPPIN FROM OLD MAN WILLOW??

Darth Tater
03-17-2000, 06:09 PM
He was leading a double life, he wanted to save them but he also had to serve his master.

Telkontar
03-27-2000, 11:55 AM
must add:

about the converstion of Gandalf the White. Assuming that Tom is a Vala or a Maia, as Hangrove( I think) stated, then he could talk to Gandalf in Valinor. Gandalf probably knew that Tom was goining back There
so he will talk with him there where he has all the time he needs.

Aran Endoreo

Darth Tater
03-30-2000, 12:39 AM
My web page will be going up sometime this weekend (I hope). I plan to have a little essay on Tom there, as well as on Fangorn. Mostly the page will be for my artwork (and others if they wanna contribute!) but of course I'll talk about them with the pictures.

IronParrot
04-05-2000, 10:45 PM
Who is Tom Bombadil?

I think the best answer came from Goldberry herself - "He is."

Think about it.

Elanor
04-05-2000, 10:57 PM
But what if he isn't?

Hey, check out my new quote:

IronParrot
04-05-2000, 11:04 PM
Nice quote.

Darth Tater
04-06-2000, 10:26 AM
That quote could end up beign a very good comentary on the overdoing of the love aspects of LOTR in the upcoming movies.

IronParrot
04-07-2000, 12:13 AM
LOTR had love aspects? I thought the only romance was between Gollum and the Ring. :p

VIII
04-08-2000, 02:40 PM
Good quote.

andustar
04-17-2000, 07:02 PM
ive heard rumours that the story of aragorn and arwen, as well as eowyn and faramir were going to be made more obvious and put much more emphasis on. but maybe this should go on another board?

anduin
04-17-2000, 11:00 PM
Well, it is worthy of it's own attention in the LOTR Movie forum...but it is just as appropriate here since that is the direction that this thread has taken....

I personally love all references to Arwen and Eowyn in the books and would love to see those parts played out on film , but I would rather have PJ stick to the story as it is written, and not over emphasize any certain character for the sake of movie making.

Anteater
04-28-2000, 04:29 PM
Tom was not the Lord of the Nazgul... No way. They were so corrupted by the ring that they were shadows that became invisible to all. Look at the brilliant colors that Tom is described as wearing... too much of a contrast there between the blackness of the Nazgul -I'd assume their leader would be even darker and unable to take the shape, form, and radiance of Tom. Also, I always assumed the Nazgul to be 'blind'... at least optically... this explains their "sniffing". I am sure that they are 'aware' of what is arround them, but I do not feel that this perception can be described as 'seeing'. So why the colors???

Also... The ring has NO EFFECT on Tom when he puts it on his finger!!! The Nazgul are obviously affected by the ONE RING!!! Their desire to find it would be overwhelming!!! No way the Witch King would be able to play with the ring as if it were a coin machine trinket; dismiss it... and then hand it back to Frodo!!!

Sheesh... I better get back to work...


Later!!!

Eruve
04-28-2000, 11:23 PM
Just FYI, the Tolkien sarcasm page has a section called "crack-pot" theories. I think these are things people actually posted on the Tolkien news groups, and I think some of it was originally meant in all seriousness. The webamster of the sarcasm page has collected the theories for our amusement. The Bombadil/Witch-king theory comes form this page. It's a joke. Enjoy it. I'll be back with the link to more (and then you'll get even less work done, LOL).

IronParrot
04-28-2000, 11:26 PM
Less work? Is it possible to do negative work? :lol:

Eruve
04-28-2000, 11:32 PM
Negative work? That's about what I accomplish every day!

Link to sarcasm page:
www.speakeasy.org/~ohh/tolksarc.htm (http://www.speakeasy.org/~ohh/tolksarc.htm)

IronParrot
04-29-2000, 05:19 PM
That site is hilarious! Plus, it even points out that Mouth of Sauron inconsistency mentioned in another thread here.

Hehe...
When Isildur had control of the One Ring, why didn't he use it to command the Ringwraiths? Or the Elven-rings? Or the Dwarven-rings? He could have ruled the whole of Middle-earth with that Ring, yet he decided instead to just write a couple of letters and then go for an unfortunate swim. What's his problem, anyway? Was he stupid?
And if, as is likely, a bacterium had landed on the inner surface of the Ring, would the Ring corrupt it into an evil bacterium? Would it be invisible to other bacteria? Would its' life stretch out and become an unending weariness? Would it use its' increased strength and stature to rule over other bacteria? Would it fight to keep other bacteria from adhering to the Ring? Would it still evolve genetically, or would it instead become a Bacteria-wraith?

andustar
04-29-2000, 06:48 PM
i put a link to the site in the advertisements thread, go see it!