The nature of Prophecy in Middle-earth

[bmilder]

Various times in LotR, characters make or receive prophecies. Boromir and Faramir had the mysterious dream. Who sent it? (It's possible this was explained but I just forgot ;) ) Long before the War of the Ring, someone foretold that the Witch-king would not be slain by a man, that the King could be told by his "healing hands," and various other things that I can't recall at this moment. Everyone seemed to take these prophecies for granted as absolute truths; the Witch-king even gloated that he couldn't be killed by a man. Does that mean that if a man happened into the circumstance that Merry and Eowyn did, he wouldn't succeed because of some odd force relating to prophecy?

Then some characters make on-the-spot predictions. Theoden predicts that he won't return from the battle. Saruman predicts that Frodo won't have a long life. Then right before the voyage to Aman, Frodo tells Sam the name of his future children. What gives him this power? If Frodo hadn't said anything, would Sam have named the children that anyway? What if he decided NOT to name his children that because of what Frodo did? (Well, we know from the family trees that they did get those names.) The interesting thing is, did Rosie "think" of those names? If Sam did, it's not really a prediction, but rather a recommendation by Frodo.

So, do the Valar responsible for all this? (And did I make a dumb topic again? ;) )

[anduin]

It's not nearly as dumb as "what is your favorite color?" :p

Actually it is a good question, one that I have never considered, one that I have no explanation for........hmmmm, very good question indeed.

For what it's worth....Denethor had hoards of scrolls that told of the lore of his city (Minus Tirith). One scroll, made by Isildur, told of The One Ring. It is possible that his hoards told of other things great, as well. Ioreth, the woman that prophesied "the healing hands" of the King, was the eldest of the women that served in the Houses of Healing. But she admits to acquiring that knowledge from old lore. So, I guess there was plenty of "lore" floating around in ME....but where that lore all came from originally, I don't know. I guess that is your question, eh? :p

[etherealunicorn]

I don't really know what to say to this either, except that you touch upon a point that I have also wondered about.
I know that reference to "seers" is made in at least a couple of spots(though I cannot remember where at the moment), so perhaps they are the source.
I too wonder if the Valar have something to do with this, or perhaps Galadriel may have this gift, since she was reputedly always very perceptive in matters concerning the heart and mind.
All in all, I think that this thread raises an important point. I do think that prophecy plays a key, albeit, unemphasized role in the books.

[Finduilas]

There is also the example of the Paths of the Dead. The verse is particularly well done in the BBC Radio Play.

Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness.
The Tower trembles; to the tombs of kings
doom approaches. The Dead awaken;
for the hour is come for the oathbreakers;
at the Stone of Erech they shall stand again
and hear there a horn in the hills ringing.
Whose shall the horn be? Who shall call them
from the grey twighlight, the forgotten people?
The heir of him to whom the oath they swore.
From the North shall he come, need shall drive him;
he shall pass the Door to the Paths of the Dead.

If you look at this and then at the events in the Return of the King, you can see the course of events happening pretty much as they are laid out in the verse.

[IronParrot]

Great points all. But consider this - the foundation of the whole debate about whether fate/destiny exists in the first place:

Are the scrolls predicting what will happen?

Or is it just that because of the scrolls, certain circumstances are made to continue along the path as prophesized for them?

[emilsson]

I´m inclinded to believe it is the Valar that controls the nature of the prophecies. I would say they use the prophecies as an indirect method to influence the world. It seems to me that after the events in Quenta Silmarillion they prefer to not influence the Middle Earth directly but chose to work through dreams etc. I think this is a possible answer to IronParrot´s question. :)

[andustar]

i would think that the prophecies in ME come from the valar.
also that the people who say them would not think hard about them, work them out etc, but simply say it on the inspiration of the moment, knowing as they did it that it was true. has that sort of thing happened to you when you were writing a story? it has to me. you write something that it doesn't feeel as if you made it up, and you know as you write it that its just perfect for that character.... do you see what i mean?

( i sure hope so! )

i sometimes feel like i just said something that i didn't plan, that i didn't actually mean to say. i imagine thats what it would be like with a prophecy. you just SAY it. and it works.

now wether this happens because you said it, or not connected to the fact that you spoke that prophecy at all, i don't know. my guess is a mixture of both. some, like glorfindel's ( i think it was him ) witch king prophecy, would have happened without him telling everyone that the witch king would not fall by the hands of a man. on hte other hand without gandalf's prophecy to thorin about bilbo thorin would never have taken the hobbit on the adventure.

so sometimes the prophecy itself is needed in order to make the things in it come true, and sometimes it has little or no effect on the events.

a bit deep for a 13 year old, no? but ive htought about this for a while before i even saw this post

[etherealunicorn]

This might sound kind of dumb, but perhaps the prophecy itself is the mover and manipulates individuals in a manner that will fullfill that prophecy. Since so much in LotR seems almost to have a life of its own(no pun intended)perhaps this is the same

[IronParrot]

Yep, to etherealunicorn you listen... that's the point I'm trying to make.

Of course, I haven't really read much of Sil, so I'm not too familiar with the doings of the Valar...

[Darth Tater]

And Tolkien said he didn't like allegory.
Before I go into what I have to say (though I think it'll probably be most of what I have to say) I'd like to clear up the misconseption about what "prophecy" means. Many think that, especially in the Judeo-Christian tradition it means telling something that will happen in the future. Though this is an aspect of prophecy it is actually an uncommon one. A prophet is anyone who testifies, mainly regarding God. Sometimes they have site into the future OR the past, but very often they are simply someone inspired to spread the word of their religion.
Though the Valar did give visions through dreams I doubt they were responsible for most of the foresite in LOTR. I believe that came directly from Iluvatar.

[Finduilas]

You could have a very good point. It is said in the Silmarillion that Olorin often walked unseen among the Eldar and from him came many fair visions and promptings of wisdom. (near the end of the Valaquenta)

[Eruve]

I read something on the rec.arts.books.tolkien news groups this morning that further backs up the idea that foresight in Middle-earth comes from the Valar or Eru. Think of the scene in Sil. where, after the Two Trees are destroyed, the Valar seem to sit and do nothing, but in reality they are planning what to do by mental telepathy. Apparently they could also communicate with the Eldar (at least) in the same way. If I can find an appropriate citaion to back this up, I'll post it (or if anyone else knows of one, please post). It may be in one of the HOME series that I don't have yet. The person on the news group cited an article in _Vinya Tengwar_ which is a magazine for Tolkienites. (See www.elvish.org) (http://www.elvish.org))

I also think it's interesting to note that foresight is common in the Bible and perhaps JRRT was making a parallel by placing foresight in his world.

Someone was wondering about an example of foresight. Malbeth the Seer is mentioned on at least two occasions I can think of. Aragorn quotes Malbeth at the Stone of Erech.

[etherealunicorn]

I wanted to add to Finduilas's point that, with mention of Olorin, I sometimes wonder if Gandalf was involved in these prophecies, since we are told that his name in the West was Olorin.
Perhaps as far as prophecy goes, Gandalf is a prime mover of events.

[Finduilas]

Eruve, there is an example in the LOTR, Many Partings, Gandalf, Galadriel and the other Elves communicate this way. Its fairly near the end of the chapter (about 4 pages from the end in my copy).

[Eruve]

I found it. "For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." I'd forgotten about that scene. And since Gandalf is of the same race as the Valar, it's good back up.

I was paging through Morgoth's Ring earlier and I came across a reference to an essay entitled Osanwe-kenta or the Communication of thought. Christopher mentions its existence in Morgoth's Ring and says he'd like to publish it eventually. Can you tell me if he ever did, since you've read all of HOME? Perhaps it's in Peoples of Middle-Earth? I have the feeling this is what the poster on the news group might have been referring to.

[Fat middle]

This thread has made me think a little, and i cannot agree with the idea of the Valar being the source of the prophecies. Of course they could be, they have power enough, thelepatic or whatever kind it be, but i don´t think that´s the mind of Tolkien about foreseing powers.

1. We can compare two posible ways of intervention of the Valar in Middle Earth: prophecies and "chance". Almost always a chance occurs inmediatly is followed by a remark (normally from Gandalf) saying something as "that was pure chance if you want to call it so" or " if chance exists". Well that´s nothing as literal, but sure anybody could find 6 or 7 quotes similar to those.

Okay, what happened with prophecies? Tokien doesn´t introduce that sort of remark when a prophecy appears. IMHO, Tolkien uses prophecies as a power of the most perfect people. Who can foresee? The Valar, many elves, but especially the most powerful elves, and a few very perfect men. I think that Tolkien sees the foreseing gift in a similar way as he use the height of his characters: the most perfect characters tends to be taller than the others.

2. I´ve been also thinking on what some of you suggested about the prophecy itself as a decisive element to alter the future so finally the prophecy is accomplished. Well, do you remember the Mirror of Galadriel? There is a terrific quote of the Lady about this point: in the mirror you can see a lot of thigs that may be or may never be. She says that the mirror is a perilous counselor.

Okay, that quote remids me a lot to the explanation of Frank Herbert´s Dune over the vision of the future by Paul Atreides: those labyrinths and waves that you can clearly see but may never happened to be.

My point in this is that prophecy (via dreaming, via lore rhymes, or via simple hunch, or foreseing) is a too dangerous tool to be used by the Valar. "Chance" is a more secure way.

3. All was present in the music of the Ainur, but only Eru was able to see it all as a whole. The Ainur could perceive fragments, but not its unity. But if all is already written (or sung) i think that the most perfect creatures, those who are more similar to their creator can perceive fragments of that sung story.

"Time past and time present are both perhaps present in time future" and "what has been and what might have been point to one end". Okay, those are not Tolkien quotes, but i love them and i think are a good crown for this bunch of nonsense :p

[Mithadan]

"Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else..." Silmarillion, p. 41.

Taken to its extreme, this quote and its implications (which is a theme which runs through the Silm. and to a lesser extent LoTR) suggests that everything contained in the Music (including the discord of Melkor) is set in stone. The elves, dwarves and the Valar have totally free will only when acting in areas not encompassed in the Music. Men are free agents.

Fate or doom is a strong force in ME, though probably not as strong as the quote implies. Men can get wrapped up in fate or doom, particularly when dealing with elves (examples: Beren, Turin, etc.). When the Valar act, such as when they summoned the elves to Valinor, things are set in motion that are probably difficult for elves and men to change. The same goes for when the Valar don't act, such as their failure to immediately pursue Morgoth or their decision to not directly contest Sauron.

Prophecies are related to these concepts of doom and fate. The Valar cannot easily communicate with men without being right in front of them. "[T]hey have not skill in such matters, and still less had they in those days before they had mingled with the Elves Therefore they loved the waters, and their hearts were stirred, but they understood not the messages." Silmarillion, p.103-4. Some men, particularly those descended from Beren and Luthien, probably had greater skill in prophecy than others. The elves had a better feel for it due to their inherent nature.

[RKittle]

I had a similar discussion recently. In fact, the discussion is still on-going. It involved Gandalf's incredible power of foresight and insight. Using The Hobbit as an example, Gandalf's choice of Bilbo seemed rather more fateful than by chance. When they were riding through Eriador he left the party to look ahead but turned around just in time to save the Dwarves from the Trolls. Later, the wizard seemed to guess immediately that Bilbo's escape from the Goblins was more than the hobbit explained.

Though none of these examples qualify as true prophecy, they certainly show an incredible ability to discern what was most likely to happen should a certain chain of actions be followed. But in Gandalf's case, he was a dominoe stacker. He just put all the pieces in a row and, if he lined them up right, he knew that pushing the first one would eventually cause the last to fall.

[Michael Martinez]

People often confuse prophecy with a contradiction of free will, and that is probably part of why these debates are so popular in so many forums. Only Iluvatar knows who will make which choices, and it is his choice to let others have the freedom to choose. That is the essence of Free Will. But Predestination has been used to make a mockery of Free Will through the centuries.

The Valar are not the ultimate source of foreknowledge. They themselves only entered Ea with limited knowledge. Of the Valar, Namo (often called Mandos) and Manwe are the two who know the Music best. But people often misunderstand the whole business with the Music.

Iluvatar taught the Ainur how to make music, and when he felt they had practiced enough on their own he taught them a theme and commanded them to make a great music based on that theme. So the events which unfolded in the history of Ea were ultimately predefined by Iluvatar. However, he only ordained that certain things should occur, not HOW they should occur. Each Ainu contributed some detail to the theme, which was "then" just music, a "sound" produced for Iluvatar's purpose but with no connection to anything "real".

When Melkor's first discord raged around Iluvatar's throne Iluvatar smiled and raised his left hand, causing a new theme to begin. Tolkien doesn't say where this theme came from, but it had to come from the singers who had remained faithful to the first theme. When Melkor's discord overwhelmed the second theme, Iluvatar raised his right hand and a third theme began. Again, this theme had to come from the singers who had remained faithful to the first two themes. But Iluvatar's third theme was so designed that every great crescendo in Melkor's discord was incorporated into it.

There were no real details in this music. The great sorrow of the third theme undoubtedly foreshadows the suffering of Elves and Men (and Dwarves and Ents) but it doesn't presage Beren and Luthien, or Earendil.

When Iluvatar brought the Music to an end it had not actually reached its "end" -- the third theme was incomplete. And when Iluvatar created a Vision to represent or reveal what the Ainur had sung about, it, too, was left incomplete. And the Vision was strictly a thing of Iluvatar's own making. Just as he had commanded the Ainur to interpret his themes according to their desires, he interpreted their interpretation and created the Story (as Tolkien would have called it).

But the Story was not complete. And Iluvatar didn't reveal everything to the Ainur. "Ainulindale" says: "Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past. And so it was that as this vision of the World was played before them, the Ainur saw that it contained things which they had not thought."

But even here there are few details. Many of the things which were "new" would derive from Iluvatar's gift of Free Will to his creatures, as much as to his own choices about what should happen and when.

The Children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men) were foreshadowed in the third theme, and "Ainulindale" implies that the Ainur did not sing of them. So who sang about the Children? Was Iluvatar himself making music when he raised his right hand? Or was he simply causing music to "arise" around him, a foreshadowing of the Children?

Still, there were no real details in this theme or the Vision, so a great deal was left to be determined. And when the Valar entered Ea they found they were at the beginning of Time. Their ensuing actions would determine how History should actually unfold. Tolkien wrote (in MORGOTH'S RING) that "the Valar 'fade' and become more impotent, precisely in proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more defined and settled. The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change (untrammelled action, on a physical plane, that is not destructive in purpose). The Past, once 'achieved', has become part of the 'Music in being.' Only Eru may or can alter the 'Music'. The last major effort, of this demiurgic kind, made by teh Valar was the lifting up of the range of the Pelori to a great height...."

Now, what "Music" is Tolkien referring to here? Is he speaking of the "Ainulindale"? No. He cannot possibly be referring to that music, because it's over, finished. The "Ainulindale" ended before Time began. The Valar (and to a lesser extent the Maiar and the Children) are creating a new Music. The new Music is very similar to the old Music, but the Valar are free to make new choices (hence, Aule creates the Dwarves) and Iluvatar is free to react with them (he communes with Manwe or accepts Aule's Dwarves as Adopted Children and weaves them into the fabric of the new Music).

There is, of course, much overlap between the "Ainulindale", the Vision, and History, but the three are each distinct, and as Time progresses the choices of the Valar confine them to paths which become more and more difficult to divert because of the weight or momentum of their previous decisions and actions.

Think of what the word "vala" means: power. The Valar are the Powers of the World. They are the raw forces which shaped the universe, Ea: the stars, the worlds, the elements, all living things which Iluvatar himself did not make directly. The Valar made whole worlds, and yet the time came when raising mountains was a great feat for them. Why? Because they were 'fading' as Tolkien puts it. They were not physically diminishing (they had no physicality to lose, unlike the Elves who did). They were diminishing as effective agents in History and Time. Their choices bound them more and more to watch the effects of their actions unfold, because they were not a part of the third theme. Iluvatar had ordained that the Ainur should make Arda for the children, and in order for the Children to take control over Arda the Valar had to become less and less active within it.

In theory, Manwe could have chosen at any time to become as nihlistic and destructive as Sauron or even Melkor. But he would not. It was not in Manwe's nature to be that way. He had "grown up" differently from Melkor, as it were, who had "often gone into the Void". So each time the world was threatened Manwe made a new choice, which seemed less and less different from previous choices, because that was the path he had chosen: to abide the will of Iluvatar and let the History unfold as it should, and not to oppose it.

And yet the Valar have never abandoned the world. As their freedom to act physically within the world (i.e., to alter it directly, and to affect the actions of others directly or indirectly) diminishes they turn more and more to using their freedom to communicate with Iluvatar's Children, and other creatures within the world.

Hence, prophecy can be a gift from either the Valar or Iluvatar, but if it is derived from the Valar its potency is limited. They cannot ensure that choices are made, or that actions are taken, whereas Iluvatar knows what choices will be made, what actions will be taken. Prophecy from the Valar, therefore, is more likely to be limited to sweeping generalizations (such as the prophetic dreams that Boromir, Frodo, and Faramir experienced -- these could have come from the Valar as well as from Iluvatar). But Iluvatar alone knows everything that will befall, and if someone possesses the gift of precise knowledge as Malbeth the Seer does, the knowledge must come directly from Iluvatar.

That's a very Biblical premise. Tolkien seems to be hearkening back to the test of the prophet which God gave to Moses. When Moses asked how his people would know if someone was speaking for the Lord, the Lord replied that if someone claiming to speak for him said a certain thing would happen and it did not, the people would know that person was not speaking for the Lord. i.e., a true Prophet of the Lord has to have a 100% accuracy record (as long as he's claiming to speak for the Lord). By implication, all false prophets are being given knowledge by someone other than the Lord, and sometimes their foretellings are true and sometimes they are not.

The Valar knew the name of Earendil before he was born. This is the only indication of detailed foreknowledge by the Valar. Did they foretell his name for him? All they would have had to do was wait until the conditions they felt were prime existed and induce someone to name their child Earendil. Or had Iluvatar given them special knowledge?

There are indications that the Valar (and Maiar) are somtimes granted additional knowledge by Iluvatar, such as when Thingol demands that Beren bring him a Silmaril and Melian foresees that Thingol would get into trouble, or when Gandalf looked upon Frodo in Rivendell and decided he would probably come out well in the end. Of course, the knowledge doesn't seem to be certain. When Eonwe greets Earendil the Maia indicates that Earendil's coming was long foreseen but not the hour when it would occur.

One act by the Valar which some people point to is the Doom of the Noldor. The Valar actively invested the Noldor with a "Fate", and even focused on Feanor and his descendants. How much were they forcing the issue and how much did they simply know in advance, and if they had advance knowledge, where and when did they get it?

The workings of the Doom cannot be analyzed. Tolkien didn't discuss them, but it could be reasonable to suggest that some of the things "foretold" were foresuggested. For example, who is to say that the idea of abdicating wasn't planted in Maedhros' heart when he heard the Doom of the Noldor? All that would be required was a seed which would bear fruition when the right circumstances occurred, and Namo had already foretold that Feanor would soon die.

The Doom of the Noldor thus represents a direct action by the Valar where they did not interact with the world physically. Yet we cannot say whether their decision was so much enforced as given weight by Iluvatar, who could introduce things great and small which would ensure that the Valar's Doom had a real effect.

Contrast this with Melkor's direct intervention in his efforts to control Arda. He had to slowly expend himself in continuous self-dissipation so as to ensure his will was enforced. Ulmo withdrew from Sirion as Melkor's expanded into the river. When Hurin defied Melkor the Vala took the Man and placed him on top of the mountain and put his power into Hurin so that Hurin was sustained in body for 27 years, and Melkor subtly influenced Men and events so that Hurin's family was ruined. It wasn't until Hurin went before Melian and Thingol that he was finally freed of Melkor's power.

Ulmo's command to Turgon to leave in Vinyamar armor and weapons of certain dimensions and design is another example where a Vala took direct action in the world's affairs. He must have put his power on Tuor to ensure the boy grew into just the right-sized man, or else he was told in advance by Iluvatar what dimensions Tuor would grow into. But even if Ulmo was acting on knowledge imparted by Iluvatar, it was still his choice to communicate directly with Turgon and with Tuor. Ulmo in fact acted indirectly against Melkor wherever possible, as when he inspired Turgon and Finrod to establish hidden kingdoms which would outlast the other Noldorin realms.

It was also Ulmo who chose to save Voronwe from the storm, so that he could lead Tuor to Gondolin. Ulmo could have arranged for Tuor to find the city by some other means.

Ulmo continued to take direct action in trying to warn Turgon, but Turgon ignored his warnings. Ulmo didn't know when Melkor would destroy Gondolin. He probably didn't know that it would be Maeglin who would betray the city. But Melkor's intentions were clear: to destroy the Noldor in Beleriand. When Gondolin was all that remained of Noldorin power Melkor would have the resources to find the city, and eventually he did find someone who gave Melkor the information he needed.

Ulmo's actions concerning Gondolin are probably the closest a Vala came to actively moving events to conform to his will, but he didn't really try to make History unfold a certain way. He seems, rather, to have tried to help the Children make choices that would help them avoid some of the nastier consequences of earlier choices. Ulmo tried to help Elves and Men amend their ways within the confines of his own choices (which were evidently quite confining even by the time of the War of the Jewels).

[Fat middle]

OMG, you have returned with renewed forces, Michael, that post was almost as long as all the others...

...digesting, digesting... :p

[Michael Martinez]

That WAS pretty long, wasn't it? :)

[Eruve]

It went to 4 pages when I pasted it into Word so I could print it! Still haven't read it properly, but I digest better off-line...

[Michael Martinez]

You know, I'm half-tempted to turn that piece into its own Web page. It is almost to me as "the gems of the Noldor. The work of [my heart], whose like I shall not make again."

[IronParrot]

Again he demonstrates why he is the Master. :p