lol another one

[andustar]

ok you have been warned. i am going to be posting non stop now, with annoyingly nagging questions like this one:

did frodo really succeed in his quest?

ive heard so many ppl say that he didn't, and that his sadness at the end is partly due to that.
now i don't think so myself, but it is true that the Ring conquered him in the end. countless people have told me that in reality he failed - i don't agree, but i can see their point. what do you think?
:evil: anustar who posts altogether too many things than is good for her

[Eruve]

I used to say that Frodo ultimately failed, too, until I posted this on a newsgroup. I wish I remembered who said this, but someone pointed out to me another way of looking at it. I could be said that Frodo succeeded in the quest at the point where he showed mercy to Gollum and did not slay him, because, as we see in the end, Gollum is essential in achieving the ultimate goal of the quest. This is pointed out as early as the second chapter of FOTR, where Gandalf and Frodo have a discussion of whether Bilbo should have slain Gollum in The Hobbit.

[andustar]

i agree :)

[Darth Tater]

I think Frodo was succesfull in his part of the quest, fulfilling as much as was possible for him. Gollum's part in destroying the ring was necessary, but Frodo did all he could ans succeeded.

[anduin]

Well said Eruve. It is the mercy that Frodo showed Gollum that caused him to succeed. Without Gollum, who knows how things would have turned out. Hmm...."What If Frodo Killed Gollum?" I think we could start a thread on that one.....

[Finduilas]

There are several letters on this topic in Letter by J.R.R. Tolkien I think. I don't really want to try to find them though (having attempted that before on a very similar topic, unsuccessfully). Last time I tried to find some specific topics, it took a month.

[andustar]

please? if i beg? or maybe someone else can? i don't have Letters..

[Darth Tater]

My bet is MM finds it first ;)

[Finduilas]

One letter on the topic is letter #246. It's several pages long so I am not quoting it here. Your local library should have a copy of Letters. (out of 4 local libraries here, 3 have good collections on Tolkien). Good luck finding it.

[anduin]

Good work Finduilas! I looked it up, it is a rather long entry! Here is but a part........

"Frodo indeed "failed" as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not endure to the end; he gave in, ratted. I do not say "simple minds" with contempt: they often see with clairity the simple truth and the absolute ideal to which effort must be directed, even if it is unattainable...............I do not thinks that Frodo was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach it's maximum--impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (with which he began) and his suffereings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.

(source: letter #246 to Mrs. Eileen Elgar (draft), September 1963)

It appears that as long as you are true to yourself (and to the goal that you have set) and attempt your goal to the best of your ablitity, then you are never a failure....regardless of the obstacles that may or may not have prevented you from completing your task.

[andustar]

thanks! and as for my library having a copy, they don't even have the Two Towers...
anyway this is the way i think about it now: Frodo did not fail as he did as much as he could. things were not likely to go any other way, it would have been too much to hope. i mean Frodo couldn't even throw it into the fire at home when he had not possesed it long or been through such strain.

[Hernalt]

This has the aroma of astrophysics.

The Ring exhibited the gravitation of a celestial body which kept getting denser and denser. Ultimately, Frodo was unable to escape its Event Horizon. At the very center was a Singularity of Sauron's Will. But.. hmm.. Gollum, in the form of Hawking Radiation.. uh.. Jar Jar Binxed the Ring into the Crack of Doom, thus allowing the black hole of Frodo's destiny to explode into a thousand lesser evils that permeated to the corners of the Middle-Earth universe.

(Don't worry. I did this with the Sith, Force, Jedi and Vergence also.)

[Guardian 452]

Jar Jar Binksed the ring?

"Mesa goin' to trow de bombad ring into the maxi big cracken now, okieday?"

[AngelLord]

Frodo Succeeded, he destroyed Sauron.

[Darth Tater]

That explanation really doesn't work as well as the one Tolkien gave us. Are we sure he destroyed Sauron? No. Sauron could still be cowering in a little pit somewhere, waiting for the next age of the earth so he can screw everything up again.

[noldo]

I agree with Tater. He was just thrown into the darkness and shadows but it was never sure that was he totally destroyed.

[IronParrot]

Frodo wasn't the one who destroyed Sauron (assuming he was destroyed). It was Gollum. Two wrongs made a right.

[arynetrek]

i always thought Frodo's part in the whole mess was to be just the Ringbearer - not the Ringdestroyer. Frodo succeeded in bringing the Ring to Mt. Doom, and i think that that was his entire role & that he fulfilled it. It was Gollum's part to destroy it, and he did although he wouldn't have done so consciously.

also, frodo didn't destroy sauron. he just scared the pants off him when frodo put on the ring. (do Maiar know fear? is sauron still counted as a maiar? i'm halfway through Sil...) a lot of sauron's power was put in the Ring, but destroying it didn't destroy him, it just weakened him considerably.

*** SPOILERS AHEAD! ***

first time i read RotK, i was convinced frodo was going to die before the ring was destroyed.

aryne *

[Shanamir Duntak]

Just imagine hadn't the ring been destroyed.

Hummm... scary tought
Flying Nazgul instead of 747,
Orks would replace policeman (not so great lost:)
And, worst than all, world would always be at war, half of the earth's people would not eat enough, man would live in big cities without caring for his neighbours, lots of murders and stoooopid acts of mindless destruction...
What a terrible world it would be!

Hum... Sauron still lives for sure... I think he's taken the name of Clinton and now rules over his Kingdom in USA.:)

[etherealunicorn]

I don't know about that. I don't think that Clinton is smart enough to be Sauron in disguise ;) :)

I think that Sauron essentially destroyed himself, it just took an age for him to do it, and he did it when he made the original decision to apply much of his own power to the Ring, thereby taking his power out of his own complete control.
By that reasoning, Frodo and Gollum just happen to be pawns, in the right (or wrong)place at the correct time.

[Darth Tater]

Shanamir, according to the examples in your post the destruction of the Ring didn't really help much ;)

[arynetrek]

"Flying Nazgul instead of 747" - so then all it would take to crash a plane is a strong woman, a midget, & an old sword...

"Orks would replace policeman" - no comment

"And, worst than all, world would always be at war" - does the name Serbia sound familiar? how about Ethiopia?
"half of the earth's people would not eat enough," - they don't,
"man would live in big cities without caring for his neighbours" - most of us do. ever been to dallas?
"lots of murders" - just look at the news
"and stoooopid acts of mindless destruction" - like destroying teh rainforest? frying people in the electric chair (applies mostly to TX)? how about squandering fossil fuels & polluting the air?

"What a terrible world it would be!" - but most of us are OK with this!

"Hum... Sauron still lives for sure... I think he's taken the name of Clinton and now rules over his Kingdom in USA." - Clinton's not focused enough to be Sauron. and as much as i complain about the US, it's nowhere near as bad as Mordor (yet). final proof: Sauron's one desire is to get teh Ring, Clinton's is ... never mind.

BTW, no offense was intended in this, but it was begging to be done. and if Sauron really DID get the ring, we'd all be slaves in some sort of despotism, the elves (what's left of us) would all have been killed very early in the Fourth Age, and Tolkien would've been executed in some horrible way for daring to write anti-Mordor propaganda.

aryne *

[Shanamir Duntak]

No no no... you get it wrong!

Sauron did NOT get the ring. We'd know it for sure. He's still very weakened by that ringy thingy destruction. That's why old USA is not as bad as Mordor yet. And anyway he now tries another approach: The economic way. He plans to rule economically, then entitle himself Ruler of the world . He's clever... He makes you THINK he was destroyed for you not to interfere with his plans.

And for Clinton , I think that he's just a bad replacement for the mouth of sauron. He's surely not Sauron himself but just a pawn to be dismissed after use.

Think about all that...

But not too seri

[dunedain lady]

Cool discussion! Lothlorian definitely lives on in the form of the Amazon. Due to the effects of the destruction of the Ring, it has become hotter and rainier, but it still is as alive, and the forces of Sauron are working to destroy it. If you spend too much time there with not enough sleep, you even start being able to see some of the elves, still in hiding there. :P Perhapse Mirkwood has become Germany's Black Forest?

[ilyah]

Perhaps... But then how do you explain the Atlantic ocean? It could be explained by saying that the Valar made war upon some enemy once more, and changed the shape of the earth once more. But I do not think that that is so... The Valar refused to attack Sauron, an cast his evil reign down because of the failure(if one could call it that, perhaps stupidity or something like that is more suitable) of Numenor, and they dared not risk attack because of the powers that would have to be used would destroy much of the lands for sure... So I think that we have to decide on either America or Europe, Africa and Asia as Middle Earth... I personally think it is the latter... For exampøe, then men from Harad, and especially the Southrons were dark in the skin, I think that this means they were africans or something, perhaps the men from Harad were from the Middle-East or something... Perhaps Tolkien meant that Russia was Mordor, that the Caucasus(I think that's what they are called, the mountains that segregate Europe from most of Russia) were the... £$€£ I don't remember the names of any mountain range's it seem... the mountains surrounding Mordor...
I can only beg that noone will hang me now, this is just speculation, I am not of the opinion that Russia is Mordor... My apologies to those offended, if any...

[Eruve]

Middle-earth was definitely meant to correspond to "the north-west of the old world" (or something along those lines), but we can't really draw parallels to today's political boundaries.
As for North and South America, that too, fits into the scenario without there being another cataclysmic event after the drowning of Numenor. At the same time that Numenor was drowned, Aman was physically removed from the world and placed in a separate "plane", if you will. Only Elven ships could reach it, and they had to go into the sky in so doing. If you read the description of Frodo's journey into the West you get this feeling. A normal ship sailing west from the end of the Second Age (ie. after SA 3319) on would just find more lands and if it went on long enough could theoretically circumnavigate the world.

[Eowyn99]

hello all. i agree with the theory about clinton... but then who is monica lewinsky? :)

[bmilder]

Shelob? :p

[Shanamir Duntak]

I think she's just entertainment... or a diversion?! Hummm... gotta think about that.

[Eruve]

A certain Elf-maid from Bored of the Rings comes to mind, but she was diverting Frodo's attention, not Sauron. I like the Shlob idea. Just think about Shelob: overweight and Sauron's pet!


OMG, I just noticed the "Schlob" typo! It's too ironic, since in BOTR, Shelob is Schlob!!! (As is the chapter "Schlob's lair and other mountain resorts"...) :lol:

[ilyah]

:lol: you guys are just cracking me up! (sorry about the bad english...)