mouth of sauron

[andustar]

looking through all the discussions i saw the tom b one and remembered the site it was from. i went there again (hadn't been for a while) and saw this, which i never noticed before. what do you all think?
quoted from the chapter 'the departure of boromir'

'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use Elf-runes.'
'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken,' said Aragorn.

now, in the chapter 'the black gate opens' it describes the mouth of sauron, and after talking about his name he comes out and says very plainly 'I am the mouth of Sauron.'

i have thought about this for a while now and have more than one reason, but i'd be interested to see what everyone else can come up with

btw am i saying too much too soon? i have only been two days and yet... :lol: ive posted everywhere already. darth you did not realise your danger when you gave me the address

[IronParrot]

Hmm... I wondered about this very thing.

This one is very strange.

Oh, and keep the posts coming, you're breathing new life into Entmoot...

[bmilder]

LOL, you can never post too much :D

I never noticed this discrepancy before either.

I really have no idea. Maybe the Mouth was defying his master. What are your suspicions?

[Fat middle]

i think it matches very well with his temperament. He´s proud and presumptuous, so he finds delight in doing what is forbidden to the lower subjects.

[Yazad]

Greetings! Wonderful discussion. My question is: Is "Sauron" truly his right name? I am not certain...

[Michael Martinez]

"Sauron" is a Sindarin name given to him by the Elves in Beleriand. The idea that the Mouth of Sauron was flaunting his position in front of other slaves is, I think, one of the best possible explanations for this apparent inconsistency I have ever seen. I like it.

[andustar]

well, this might be long so ....:evil:

ok, first thing is me breathing new life into here????? you don't know whats its adding to my life to have somewhere we can discuss tolkien...

about the mouth of sauron. first, Sauron may not be his 'true' name but it was definately the one they were talking about, as they were thinking about the letter S on an orc's helmet and Gimli says : 'the S is for Sauron' but is corrected by Legolas and Aragorn.

i think that the Mouth of Sauron used the name Sauron because it was more, i don't know quite how to say this, but more appropriate for the situation. things were at a climax, they had reached a point and there was no longer much use for secrecy and not saying his real name. Sauron had openly declared war, everyone knew who he was so it would be useless to say any other name.
i hope you understand what i mean, its really difficult to desribe it.... what i want to say is that it would have been less frightening if the Mouth had used any other name, the ones people were used to, instead of the real one which was not allowed to be mentioned before. also i agree with michael martinez that it could well have given him a sort of satisfaction to do what his underlings were not allowed to, in front of them

i'm not saying that this is true but i just think its the most likely solution

well its not as long as i thought it would be...lol but its long enough. i'll stop now.
andustar

[Darth Tater]

Great thread! I have to agree with MM (as usual ;) ). Andustar, I like that idea.
Sauron is kinda like in the old testament where the Lords name can't be said because it's too holy. Except it's the other way around.

[Hernalt]

Here's a pertinant paragraph from Lalaith's site "History of the Men of Darkenss in Rhun and Harad": rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.d...r_Men.html (http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~lalaith/Tolkien/Fr_Men.html)

""The King's Men, who were afterwards called the Black Númenóreans, corrupted by Sauron" (KR), cannot really be called Southrons. But their habitation around the huge natural firth and port of Umbar, where they had "established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they [had ] worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge", (RK) put them into a position which allowed them to dominate Near Harad throughout the first millenium TA. After Umbar had been ethnically cleansed by Gondor, their survivors relocated to the Harad territories where they became tribal leaders. Therefore, they have to be reckoned as a part of Harad’s history. "After the fall of Sauron [in the War of the Last ALliance] their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth, but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor". (KR) And ever after it was said in Gondor that in Harad a few fairly pure Black Númenóreans had survived, and that out of them the Dark Lord had recruited the powerful sorceror known as "the Mouth of Sauron"."

KR "Annals of the Kings and Rulers", Appendix A in: The Return of the King, 1965.
RK The Return of the King, 1965.
********************************
So the Mouth of Sauron came from a long pedigree of stuffed turkeys.

[andustar]

:lol: :lol:

[easygreen]

Old thread, but I'll just add my 2 cents.

1. First consider, why would Sauron have barred his servants from using his right name? My guess is that this practice dates back to when Sauron first began to stir again, was still weak, and needed to remain hidden whilst he rebuilt his strength. It wouldn't have done to have orcs blabbing it about the Sauron was back in town before all was ready. When ROTK takes place, though, there's no longer any reason to remain quiet on this score. The last host of Gondor is at Mordor's very gates.

2. Look at the alternative. "The Mouth of the Lidless Eye" really doesn't work, does it?

3. Tolkien tells us that The Mouth of Sauron doesn't remember his own name. That's to say that the messenger has no distinct identity or personality left. He is literally the Mouth of Sauron. And that's all. Therefore, he doesn't puff himself up so much as signify his complete subservience. The parley gives the reader a little taste of what's in store for the rest of the world if Sauron wins. A slavery so complete that it leaves no place for anything but the Sauron's words and the Sauron's will.

4. The messenger speaks for Sauron at a moment when Sauron still can't be sure that Gandolf or Aragorn or someone won't place the Ring on his own finger and assume Mordor's throne (that is, effectively become the new Dark Lord). By naming himself, Sauron defiantly asserts that he -- Sauron -- is lord and master of Mordor and no one else.

5. While Sauron specifically prohibits the utterance of his right name, he surely reserves unto himself the right to use it when he desires. That's the nature of dictators. They are a law unto themselves. They don't feel bound by any rules, not even the ones the make themselves.

[IronParrot]

I like point #4 in particular.

[Fat middle]

wow! very good! :eek: : i like especially points 3 and 4. I promise to reread it tomorrow again

[andustar]

hey thanks! thats exactly what i meant, but i didn't put it that well

[Grand Admiral Reese]

What else could he call himself? He didn't remember his name, and his position is quite litterally "the Mouth of Sauron".

And at that point there wasn't much secrecy left about Sauron's purposes. His armies had basically laid waste to much of the surrounding lands, not much secret about that.

[Darth Tater]

Sauron was, essentially, a great big ego. Why didn't he want his name used? Because he wanted it to be too high and mighty, too fearfull for the common rabble to speak. The Mouth of Sauron was second in command and was also, as easygreen said, possessed and basically taken over.

[Snowdog]

So if we go with the Mouth of Sauron as second in command, does that put him above the nazgul?

[Psycho Kitty]

wait. couldnt sauron have a secret name or something that we arent aware of? like the god of the jews has a name that you arent supposed to say but he is called "god" by other names too.