too merciful on Saruman

[Brimvalir]

I think that people were too merciful with Saruman and that he should have been done away with early on considering the deaths he caused the House of Eorl alone, not to mention damage and death in the forest and the attempted blend of the Human and Orc races I could go on and on ............:cool:

[bropous]

Welcome to the Moot, Brimvalir!

I guess you're suggesting that they should have gone ahead and dragged Saruman out of Orthanc and nailed him to an Ent, or killed him in some way. You have to remember that Curunir/Saruman was a Maiar, a very powerful being, and just killing him outright may have had nasty consequences, who knows?

[markedel]

And pity is a big theme in the story if you didn't notice

:D

[Kirinki54]

But it has always baffled me that Treebeard actually just let him go... And this is a instant where pity seems to have negative consequences, as Sharky could make more misery for the Shire, no? :confused:

[Menelvagor]

I think Bropous is right though, I don't think anyone there (save maybe Sauron) could really kill Saruman without some serious concequences. By being killed by wormtongue, whom he corupted and was thus his own creature, it saved everybody that problem.

[markedel]

Why would there be serious consequences. He's a maia mad into a physical form by the Valar on purpose. They could be slain. Gandalf died. No reason why Saruman couldn't.

[bropous]

Yeah, but it took a Balrog to slay Gandalf the Grey. Only Gandalf the White could kill Saruman of Many Colors, and who knows what sort of stricture was placed upon a Maiar killing a Maiar. But, I do agree that the negative consequences of pity are shown. Remember the adage: "No good deed goes unpunished". Treebeard's kindness bit the Hobbits in the hineys. Maybe Morgoth had it right. ;)

[Kevin McIntyre]

I really don't think that it would have required any special abilities or power to kill Saruman (wormtongue in his corruption did not attain any powers) especially once he had diminished himself.

[Renille]

I think at that point, Saruman was really, really weak...so weak that all it took was a surprise to kill him. Normally, though, I agree with the others; Saruman was too strong to be killed by mere mortals. Maybe Saruman of Many Colors finally cracked after his master was killed.

[FrodoFriend]

I agree w/ Ren....even Saruman's voice was losing his power. He was a LOSER!!! LOSER LOSER LOSER!!! AHHHHHH!!

Anyway, the good guys, being good guys, had to be merciful and spare him.

I think it's interesting that Frodo's pitying Gollum is what eventually saved both him and Middle Earth; however, Treebeard & Gandalf's pitying Saruman only ended in the scouring of the Shire. Guess it just goes to show that pity, like most things, can go both ways.

[olsonm]

I thought Gandalf said, Saruman still had some power left in his voice and this influenced even Treebeard. :confused:

[Evenstar]

Pity was a theme in this book...and someone probably should have killed Saruman when they had the chance so save the Shire from disaster but I think that the whole getting his throat slit made up for it...doesn't anyone else??:D

[coolismo]

Pity is only a cover for good strategic sense. By having Saruman around you have a schism in evil's camp, contrary intentions amongst Evil and its host. Even in a diminished state Saruman represented a portal for el Blacko, bit like capturring an enigma code machine, the enemy has a line of communication but can no longer be sure it is safe or truly influential. Even defeated Saruman was another distraction for the eye.

[Nimrodel]

Originally posted by coolismo
Pity is only a cover for good strategic sense. By having Saruman around you have a schism in evil's camp, contrary intentions amongst Evil and its host. Even in a diminished state Saruman represented a portal for el Blacko, bit like capturring an enigma code machine, the enemy has a line of communication but can no longer be sure it is safe or truly influential. Even defeated Saruman was another distraction for the eye.

Great thoughts! I never thought about it that way before http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/ruinkai/biggthumpup.gif

[Earniel]

I think Treebeard was glad to be rid of Saruman, at least then he could put all his interest in the new gardens of Isengard. Saruman was at that point merely a nuissance to Treebeard, although ents are patient creatures I think he was tiring from guarding Saruman. And perhaps Saruman was in such a sorry state that Treebeard didn't think he could do much harm.

[Bregalad]

Gandalf does indeed say that prehaps Saruman had a little of his voice's influence left, and was, in time, able to influence even Treebeard. But even if that is not the case, Ents just aren't cut out to be jailers. They tend to mind their own business unless they think there is some massively important reason to do otherwise. They are sweet and forgiving beings. They love the wild woods and can't stand to see anything caged. I am not at all suprised that they eventually just let Saruman go.

[Khadrane]

I thought Gandalf said, Saruman still had some power left in his voice and this influenced even Treebeard.

He did. Saruman knew that Treebeard hated seeing things imprisioned so Saruman used his voice and Treebeards weakness(it's not really a weakness) to convince Treebeard to free him. (I think. I could be wrong. I often am.)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by bropous
Welcome to the Moot, Brimvalir!

I guess you're suggesting that they should have gone ahead and dragged Saruman out of Orthanc and nailed him to an Ent, or killed him in some way. You have to remember that Curunir/Saruman was a Maiar, a very powerful being, and just killing him outright may have had nasty consequences, who knows?

Why didn't wormtongue suffer from these undue consequences then? He would have run off into the wild blue younder, if he hadn't been shot down by archers...

[FrodoFriend]

Maybe not. You never know, maybe a lightning bolt would've struck him down out of a clear sky, if the arrows hadn't gotten him first. :)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
Maybe not. You never know, maybe a lightning bolt would've struck him down out of a clear sky, if the arrows hadn't gotten him first. :)

True, or maybe he would have gotten run over by a bus. These things always happen, I hear.

[FrodoFriend]

Yeah, or a coconut could've fallen on his head and killed him! It's a dangerous world out there.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
Yeah, or a coconut could've fallen on his head and killed him! It's a dangerous world out there.

Or a milkbottle. These things have a bad habit of appearing out of nowhere. Just drop right from the sky!

[Earniel]

Don't forget the cows, they tend to have the habit of falling from the sky upon unwary travellers.

[BeardofPants]

... Or it could rain toads. Eeewwwww.... I'd be a bit more worried about those bulls behind you (ducks up nearest tree).

[Earniel]

*confused look* What bulls?

[BeardofPants]

Heh heh heh, now you'll be really surprised when you can't find the mushrooms in your pack ... Bwah hah hah hah!

[Earniel]

You stole my mushrooms?!? Why you little... thief! thief! Bagginsssss.... we hatesssss it forever! thief! my preciousssss musssssshrooms.....

[BeardofPants]

If you want them, come and claim them! *sheepish look* Where did that come from?

[Earniel]

*insane smile* You shouldn't have said that BeardofPants, as much as I shiver slightly when I hear that phrase, I react badly on dares... Much like that supposed bull does on movement when he's angry....*chases after BeardofPants who flies screaming in terror, returns with mushrooms leaving BeardofPants high up in a tree* Still no hard feelings heh?;)

[BeardofPants]

But what about second breakfast? *dangles helplessly from the tree* Be careful, i mellon, BeardofPants is quick to anger, and as subtle as a brick.:D

[Earniel]

*throws an apple at BeardofPants* Here's your second breakfast. Subtle as a brick hehe, I like it:) But it's only fair I give you a warning: Aye, you can fight the sea, yet you cannot win from her.:D

[BeardofPants]

*Munches on Apple* Nyah! Nyah! But you can't stop me peeing in it!! Nyah Nyah Nhyah Nyah! *Pokes tongues* ;)

[Earniel]

You are asking for one mayor tidal wave. Any last words?:p

[BeardofPants]

If you want me, come and claim me... uh oh... vague sense of deja vu...

[Earniel]

Bye, bye...
Tidal wave crashes

Now that's settled shall we return to the thread before we get banned for spamming? Not that the admins would notice.. Noooooo they're having fun with the entmoot-settings....:)

[BeardofPants]

Okay... That tidal wave was waaaay too merciful on Saruman, as was the falling cow, bus, and coconut.

[RosieCotton]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Okay... That tidal wave was waaaay too merciful on Saruman, as was the falling cow, bus, and coconut.

What would YOU have done then?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by RosieCotton


What would YOU have done then?

Well, for a start, I wouldn't have pulled out the coconut so soon. As for the cow, I think it is needlessly cruel to hurl them around like that. And the bus? Why use that, when you can use a steam roller? Tidal waves are fun, but Saruman would probably know how to surf. I'm all for a volcanic eruption... and THEN I'd pull out my super-dooper weapon: The Feather!

[Earniel]

I'll throw in a tsunami and a taifoon then....

[Brimvalir]

maybe a whirlpool could finish him - after the tidal wave of course- but you would still have to be careful dealing with him - he is triccckkksssy and - can see through a brick wall in time ..... :)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Brimvalir
can see through a brick wall in time ..... :)

Well we'll throw one of them as well!

[crickhollow]

you wouldn't throw out the traditional acme anvil, would you?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by crickhollow
you wouldn't throw out the traditional acme anvil, would you?

*Pulls out traditional acme anvil*

You mean, like THIS one?

[Tulkas2002]

Saruman's death like Gollums played a part in bringing about good. Without it the Hobbits might not have gained the wisdom firsthand that evil can strike anywhere - even in the heart of a safehaven like the shire.

[TomFoolOfATook]

I could take out Saruman - lemme at em lemme at em ;)