who's older?

[MasterMothra]

in the sil it said one of the valar made seven dwarves before the eldar were created. illuvatar was not happy and spared the dwarves from the valar's hammer. so the dwarves slept until the elves were created. its been a while since i read the sil, so i could be wrong. if im correct wouldnt that mean the dwarves were the first borne?

[markedel]

Since elves are firstborn the dwarves woke up after the elves were. The elves were concieved by Eru long before Aule thought up dwarves.

[Brimvalir]

Nod, Illuvatar did not smite the dwarves but he let them sleep while the elves were the first to enter Middle Earth...;)

[FrodoFriend]

I think technically the Dwarves were in Middle Earth before the Elves, but they weren't really living, so the Elves still count as first born.

[Finrod Felagund]

Iluvatar told Aule that the Dwarves wouldn't awaken until the Elves did so the elves are older

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
I think technically the Dwarves were in Middle Earth before the Elves, but they weren't really living, so the Elves still count as first born. Iluvatar placed the Dwarves in a deep sleep, only to awaken after the First Born. The Elves were in Middle-earth before the Dwarves.

[Nibs]

Now, when we talk about elves we're talking about the children of Iluvatar. The dwarves were made by Aule and lived before the elves, but they were not the children of Iluvatar. Therefore, the elves are still counted as being the first born, and we can assume that means of Iluvatar...

I guess you could say the dwarves are older in the strict sense, but it depends on when they awoke in comparison to each other.

Now I ask you: does it really matter?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yeah, I guess it matters if we are talking accurraceies. The Dwarves were made first, not lived first. They did not occuppy Middle-earth first. The moment Eru realized that they existed, he placed them in this deep slumber. It is only a matter of fact.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
The Dwarves were made first, not lived first. They did not occuppy Middle-earth first. The moment Eru realized that they existed, he placed them in this deep slumber.
Actually, not to tear you down ;), but the dwarves did live after Aule made them. Iluvatar found out, asked Aule about his actions. Aule confessed and brought up his hammer to smite them. However, Iluvatar spoke against their destruction when the dwarves cringed from the weapon and caused them to slumber until just as or after the elves awoke.

Don't hate me because I'm a perfectionist :D.

[Findegil]

Can't say that's right. Eru didn't send the dwarves to sleep at once. Even the revers. He it was that braught them to life. Aule had created pupets. And when he pretende to distroy the dwarves, Eru rescued them by awaking them to real life so that they fled before Aules stroke. He did not even himself brought them to sleep. He comanded Aule to do so.

But anyway, Eru did so because he didn't want the dwarves before the Elves. And if you asked further I could say the Elves were the folk of Ea of which Eru thought first and in that way they were his first children in Ea.

Regards
Findegil

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, there is nothing wrong with being a perfectionist, and I agree with everything you are saying. When I said they were made first, but did not live first, I meant that they never lived long enough to develope, or they never inhabited M-e before the Elves.

[Nibs]

Well, I'll look it up again and quote it, but for the time being we're relying on our own memories and either one of us isn't right or it doesn't specify and we're both merely speculating. I will repost with the excerpt.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Fair enough.

[Nibs]

Okay, here we go... in-depth review, pages forty through forty-two... let's hunt some facts.

"And Aule made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind... and he made first the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall under the mountains of Middle Earth."

From this, we can garner that Iluvatar probably didn't have to do any more to the Dwarves than they already were; i.e.: give them life, which they already appear to have.

"…and in the very hour that Aule’s work was complete, and he was pleased, and began to instruct the Dwarves in the speech that he had devised for them, Iluvatar spoke to him; and Aule heard his voice and was silent.”

In this, they were alive enough to be taught speech. Further fact that they were, indeed, alive when Aule made them.

Iluvatar’s inquiry to Aule seems to contradict that, however: “…thou hast from me as a gift thy being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?”

I think what that means is that when they were first made they had no means of doing things on their own. Kind of like inert robots. However, one could argue that the Elves did so, without any help, so I’ll leave it up for discussion. There are numerous possibilities.

Aule’s response: “…what shall I do now, so that thou be not angry with me forever? As a child to his father, I offer to thee these things, the work of the hands which thou hast made. Do with them what thou wilt. But should I not rather destroy the work of my presumption?

“Then Aule took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves; and he wept. But Iluvatar had compassion upon Aule and his desire, because of his humility; and the Dwarves shrank from his hammer and were afraid, and they bowed their heads and begged for mercy. And the voice of Iluvatar said unto Aule: ‘Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices?’”

Now, Iluvatar said explicitly that he knew about Aule’s crafting of the Dwarves all along and accepted it. Once again, it’s left to speculation. Did Iluvatar have to give the Dwarves their life or was Aule able to on his own? Regardless, I think the sole purpose was to teach an important lesson to Aule. But Aule did not pretend to destroy them as you said... hate to burst your bubble... it's okay, though. I've been wrong in my life more times than you'll ever be :).

Iluvatar finished with “They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth… but when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children…”

“Then Aule took the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, and laid them to rest in far-sundered places…”

There you have it. I think the topic here is whether Aule could have possibly made the Dwarves on his own, and that is entirely up to speculation, since it doesn't specify.

Was that enlightening? It was for me.

[Nibs]

That is by FAR the largest post I've ever written... don't cross me again :D.

(Just kidding, if you couldn't tell).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well done Nibs. I think the problem is, and it wouldn't be the first, is that we are looking at a contradiction on the part of the good Professor. It is stated in no uncertian terms, that the Valar were incapable of creation. However, it does appear that Aule may very well have given life to the Dwarves before Eru placed them in their deep sleep.

[Ñólendil]

I don't think so, SGH. Review one of the passages Nibs quoted: Then Aule took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves; and he wept. But Iluvatar had compassion upon Aule and his desire, because of his humility; and the Dwarves shrank from his hammer and were afraid, and they bowed their heads and begged for mercy. And the voice of Iluvatar said unto Aule: ‘Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices?

Eru gave them life, true existance, even as Aule offered his makings to Him. The Dwarves had no real life before Eru came along, as the One told him: thou hast from me as a gift thy being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?

There is thus no contradiction. The Dwarves have no real life after Aule made them, Eru came along, Aule offered his children to them, Eru accepted, they then had life. Aule thus did not create the Dwarves. He made them and the One completed them.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
I don't think so, SGH. Review one of the passages Nibs quoted:

There is thus no contradiction. The Dwarves have no real life after Aule made them, Eru came along, Aule offered his children to them, Eru accepted, they then had life. Aule thus did not create the Dwarves. He made them and the One completed them. Question: If the Valar were incapable of giving life, then why did Aule even make the attempt. Eru intervened after Aule brought them into being and was somewhat angered with him for doing so. If Aule was not able to give them life, and this was something restricted to Eru only, then why bother in the first place? I don't think he at the time expected Eru to make an appearence. So I still find the whole process a bit contradictry.

[MasterMothra]

damn, didnt mean to start a fight, heheheh.

[Nibs]

Well, after the quote that mentions Aule teaching him speech, I said that the issue lies in whether Iluvatar caused Aule's creation to live because he knew about them the whole time (as mentioned), or Aule had the ability on his own and Iluvatar was merely cognizant of it throughout. Since it's not very specific on this, I'd imagine that, number one:

1) It's up to you to form your opinion about it.

And number two:

2) It doesn't really matter.

I'll stick with number two.

[MasterMothra]

well of course it doesnt really matter. half the posts here really dont matter. it was just a question i asked myself the last time i read the sil. i simply wanted the opinions of others. my personal thought is that the dwarves were born first, whether it was illuvitar's will or not.

[Bacchus]

All of the arguments claiming that the dwarves were older are, in my opinion, based upon a faulty premise. Why does everyone assume that the Elves were created and then immediately awakened? The evidence in fact seems to argue the opposite view. The Valar refused to attack Melkor at Utumno because they knew not where the Children were to awaken.

SGH asked why Aul&euml bothered to create the Dwarves. Aul&euml himself answered this to Il&ugravevatar. The child can imitate the father with no thought of mockery.

The instruction by Aul&euml in speech I consider to be similar to training a parrot to speak. It had no meaning until the Fathers were given life by Il&ugravevatar.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by Bacchus
The instruction by Aule in speech I consider to be similar to training a parrot to speak. It had no meaning until the Fathers were given life by Iluvatar.
That final sentence is the issue, I thought. Was life given to the Dwarves by Iluvatar or did Aule do it on his own? It doesn't specify. Iluvatar knew about Aule's plan the whole time, and that makes it even tougher to figure out.

[Bacchus]

I don't see an issue there. "Thine offer I accepted even as it was made." Il&ugravevatar rewards Aul&euml for his humility and gives life to the Dwarves. This contrasts nicely with Melkor's pride and his ultimate impotance because of it.

[Findegil]

Speech is not realy a sign of life if it is seen while Aule's attention is on the speekers. The Valar could make a rock speek if they whiched, but only as long as they focused on it. When they left it to its owne it was a piece of stone again. Aule might have kreated beasts like Yavanna did, but I my oppion it was the attemp to do other wise, the attemp to creat incarnated beings, that Eru critisised.

And what else when not the destruction of the dwarves pretended Aule with the hammer? I think it is clear from what Eru say's afterwards, that Aule would he have had his will would have destroyed the dwarves but for Eru intervention.

Regards
Findegil

[Ñólendil]

If the Valar were incapable of giving life, then why did Aule even make the attempt. Eru intervened after Aule brought them into being and was somewhat angered with him for doing so. If Aule was not able to give them life, and this was something restricted to Eru only, then why bother in the first place? I don't think he at the time expected Eru to make an appearence. So I still find the whole process a bit contradictry.

It seems to me that Aulë had no idea it was impossible for him to create his own Children. "I desired no such lordship". Tolkien said he did what he did out of impatience. He was a maker, after all.

I don't see an issue there. "Thine offer I accepted even as it was made." Ilùvatar rewards Aulë for his humility and gives life to the Dwarves. This contrasts nicely with Melkor's pride and his ultimate impotance because of it.

Thank you!