Frodo and the Cracks of Doom

[Mithadan]

I've been following Andustar's post "lol another one" (what is LOL anyway?) and one particular post caught my eye as possibly deserving more attention. Someone said something like "Frodo was the bearer of the Ring, not the destroyer", meaning that Frodo was not supposed to take it off his finger and pitch it into the lava himself. OK, if not Frodo then who, keeping in mind Gandalf's talk with Frodo early on where he says that to seize the ring from Frodo by force would break his mind.

Maybe Gandalf didn't plan that far ahead, but I doubt it. He must have at least thought about it. Who from the Fellowship would have the unenviable task of wresting the ring from Frodo, if they had got that far?

[Quickbeam]

I would say that Frodo's mission was the DESTRUCTION of the ring, regardless of exactly how it happened. I don't think Gandalf or anyone else expected that Frodo could stand in the Sammath Naur and cast the Ring into the Fire. After all, Frodo had had a panic attack when Gandalf tossed the ring into the fireplace at Bag End so he could see the writing on it. Gandalf might have been able to destroy the Ring, and perhaps Elrond and Galadriel, but no one else. Maybe not even them, if it had come down to it. One of the Ring's powers was self-preservation. Gandalf's hope, I think, was that the Ring was fated to be destroyed, if it could somehow be transported to the one place where destruction was possible. He also thought Gollum might have a role to play before all was said and done. His instincts, on both matters, proved correct (as usual!).

[Quickbeam]

Oh, I forgot: LOL = laughing out loud. 'lol' (preceded by a colon) is the code for the laughing smilie: :lol:

[Shanamir Duntak]

In the original plan, the whole felloship was supposed to get to mont Doom. I suppose the wizard hoped that someone would be able to reason the poor hobbit when they finally get there...

And like Quickbeam told, he must have hoped the ring was fated to be destroyed!

[RKittle]

Boromir never had any intentions of going to Mordor. He was headed for Minas Tirith. It is most likely that Aragorn was headed for MT, too. As for the rest of the Company of the Ring, it was clear thar Gandalf was headed for Lorien, but it was not apparent what his exact intentions were after that.

[Shanamir Duntak]

Ok... sorry mea culpa.. ALMOST the entire fellowship :p

[Spock1]

Indeed the numbers of the Fellowship was indended to give the most hope of success. Foretelling is not 100% accurate and so the destruction was possible but who would actually cause the destruction was unknown. Frodo was the Bearer but "golum may have a part to play" certainly fits with that.
Just think on alternate realities and causual effects.
....oops some ST talk but it applies.

:cool:

[Rambunctious Ugnaught]

It was apparent to me tht the fellowship never planned to even make it much farther than the Gaates of Mordor, but they had to try.

[Grand Admiral Reese]

They could have tried to reason with him, to take it off and throw it in himself. If worse came to worse at that moment, they'd probably have to push bodily into Mount Doom, destroying the Ring, and unfortunatly Frodo as well.

[Digigirl]

Gah, ditto to all of the above... ^_^

[Shanamir Duntak]

Poor little Frodo... that woulda been sad...:(

[arynetrek]

that's almost what happened - frodo took the rign the the very edge of the Crack, but refused to throw it in & instead claimed it as his own. if gollum hadn't bitten off the Ring (& finger) &, as some would say, Jar Jar-ed it into the Crack, frodo would have kept it, & then Sam would be in a horrible place: kill his Master (b/c by now taking the Ring just might, & it almost did) or let down Gandalf & Strider & all those nice Elves.

i agree - "poor little Frodo" - he just had a rather (middle)earth-shaking destiny. and yes, i do think the Ring was fated to be destroyed. otherwise it would've slipped away again - that thing seems to have a mind of its own when choosing its keepers.

aryne *

[Digigirl]

>> He just had rather a (middle)earth shaking destiny <<

Nggaaa! Bad joke alert! Bad joke alert!

lol j/k, arynetrek! *^_^*

[arynetrek]

sorry...
:D

aryne *

[Shanamir Duntak]

lol :lol:
I kind of like you digigirl, You're sympatic (is that how it's should be written? Anyway) :)

[Mithadan]

I don't think Sam could have forced himself to push Frodo in, nor do I think he could have overcome Frodo to do so. Nor do I like to visualize Aragorn slicing up Frodo with Anduril to complete the quest, although I think he would regretfully have done so. Likewise for Gimli and probably Legolas. Maybe Gandalf would have tried to talk Frodo into destroying the ring, but it might have driven the poor hobbit insane.

Maybe the point of all this is that the quest was impossible for Frodo to accomplish. Gandalf called it a "Fool's errand" if I recall correctly. Those who say that Frodo failed ignore this point. Frodo went as far as his mental and physical strength could take him and succeeded in bringing the ring to a point where the quest could be completed. To finish the job required outside assistance, fortuitously in the form of Gollum. Fortuitously? Hmmmmm...... Gollum just happened to be in the right place (precisely where he least wanted to be) at the right time (in the middle of a war. Hmmmmm.... Outside assistance?

Coincidence? Sure. And dwarves (including their women, see HoME 12) don't have beards.

[Eruve]

Shanamir, I think you mean she's nice. :)

[Darth Tater]

"In my experiance there's no such thing as luck"

Gandalf said once that Gollum had a destiny to fulfill, or at least he illuded at it. The fates had already desided, possibly at the singing into being of the earth, the destiny of the Ring. Gollum had to be there to destroy it, that's just the way it had to go. I believe Gandalf had at least some clue to this.

[The Westward Road]

Its very possible Gandalf had some idea due to his stay with Nienna (sp?) while in the West. She was the sister to Mandos and lived close to him. I also believe the Silm says something of Gandalf learning the future from Mandos but can't say for sure.

TWR

[Digigirl]

Thanx Shanamir! ^_^

Okay, well, I WOULD argue my point, but the LAST time I got into a debate about LOTR, I got kicked off the board.
*sigh*
So anyway...ummm... >_<

[bmilder]

Oh really? Which board?

But anyway you can argue about LotR here to your heart's content, as long as you're civil :)

[Shanamir Duntak]

Yeah that right!
Look, I'm still here! :p
But I'm going with everybody. I think Gandalf had an idea about Gollum's role, I mean, why else would he insist on not hurting Gollum, a creature that is so evil?

[emilsson]

I too have to agree with everybody. Gandalf sensed Gollum´s role in the destruction of the ring. One thing that interest me is that Frodo does not kill Gollum ( in the beginning of Two Towers I think ). When I read that passage I thought that Frodo acted the way he did not only because of what Gandalf had said but also because he could sense there was more to Gollum´s part than it appeared.

[noldo]

That's right. I also think there was some pity in it too.

[arynetrek]

i'm not going to retype it here, but read The Taming of Smeagol, approx. p. 639-640.

for those who aren't looking this up right now, Sam suggests killing Gollum, Frodo won't (b/c of foreknowledge?) & also won't abandon him in the wilds. THEN Frodo remembers Bilbo's & Gandalf's lines about "pity?" from Book I, & says that he won't touch Gollum & pities him, but won't let him go wandering through the wilds unchecked & so takes him with them.

it seems that we're all in agreement, & this just corroborates (sp?) our point.

but also, Gandalf says "not even the Wise can see all ends," so i think Gandalf & Frodo were both merely suspecting that Gollum had a part to play. of course, they were right, but neither one of them really knew what the future held while they talked at Bag End.

aryne *

[dogtrot]

perhaps gandalf being a maiar had a more developed sense of destiny, meaning everyone involved had a part to play in the final events of the destruction of the ring. also any good story has to have forshadowing and this is apparent in passages like those qouted above.

[Shanamir Duntak]

In the middle Earth roleplaying game, there is a stat called "Intuition" (in french). Remember that it is approved by Tolkiens Estate.

I guess
Gandalf had a high score in that stat! :)