Goldberry?

[Nariel Starfire]

Can goldberry and Tom Bombadil die? Where did she come from anyway, and how the heck did she end up with TOm? If she can't die, why not? And what does it mean that she's the "River daughter"? Is she some kind of Naiad (water nymph)?

[Menelvagor]

From what I've gathered, Tom was walking along the Withewindle one day and found her sitting by a pool and they fell in love, but I have no idea if that means she is some sort of water nymph. If she does die, then she ages very slowly, but I ogt the impression that she and Tom were both deathless.

(sorry if that was a little muddled... not nearly enough sleep)

[Earniel]

I always thought they were both Maiar, and therefore immortal.
I don't know how she ended up with Tom, they always struck me as an odd couple:)

[emplynx]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I always thought they were both Maiar, and therefore immortal.
I don't know how she ended up with Tom, they always struck me as an odd couple:)
This is a hot topic of debate! I personally think that they were Maiar or Valar... I read a good essay once proving they were Valar.

Unless someone comes across some writings of Tolkien that tell exactly who they are, this is going to continue to be a discussion for a longggggggggg time.

PS My best friend and I have an ongoing joke about how Tom would never be gay because Goldberry is soooooooooooo hot. I don't know why.

[FrodoFriend]

Hmmm, I think she's a Maiar. Tolkien did say that she was the "daughter of the river" or some such thing. And who's the god of rivers, lakes, water, etc? Ulmo! So I would think Goldberry would be one of Ulmo's or Osse's people. As for Tom Bombadil, your guess is as good as mine. Personally I think he's too unique to be a Maiar or Valar; seems like he should be something totally different.

[Renille]

Goldberry could possibly be a lesser Maia. Or could water Maiar and "water spirits" be the same thing? As for Bombadil...I have no idea. Unless another Maia...

[Earniel]

Originally posted by emplynx

This is a hot topic of debate! I personally think that they were Maiar or Valar... I read a good essay once proving they were Valar.

Is it? I had no idea, I thought that the Silmarillion said who the Valar were and that there was a fixed number of them. But that there were plenty maiar.

[Nariel Starfire]

but can she be killed?

[Menelvagor]

I don't think she could be killed. It's my opinion that her fate is tied up with the river (like Tom's seems to be tied up with the land), and she will die when it dies, kind of like a water nymph. I also personally think she is a Maia.

[Earniel]

Interesting view Menelvagor, never thought of it that way..

[Wayfarer]

They're not maiar. And certainly not valar

No, I'm not going to bother proving it. and no, I don't 'have a better idea'.

[Radagast The Brown]

I agree with Wayfarer.

she cannot be a maia.:cool:

[Menelvagor]

Why?

[Bregalad]

I do not think that Tom Bombadil or Golberry are either Maiar or Valar. Especially not Tom. Tom is the eldest thing in middle earth. As he himself says: "Eldest, that's what I am....He made paths before the big people, and saw the little people arriving.....When the elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent."
According to the Tolkien Companion:It is not recorded in the Annals of the Shire what sort of creature Bombadil was, but it seems certain from all available evidence that he was a unique being, "oldest and fatherless" as the elves deemed him.
He was a unique being. There are more than one valar, more than one maiar. It seems a moot point to ask what sort of being Bombadil was. He was a Tom Bombadil.
Golberry is a more interesting question. The Tolkien Companion says she is a water sprite, the daughter of the river Whithywindle. And I mean actually the river's daughter. She came from the river, it is her sole parent. Tom says he found her by the river, and I've heard some people suggest that he might have made her himself. But regardless of that conjecture, I don't think she is Maiar, Valar, or any other kind of -ar!:D

[Menelvagor]

Originally posted by Bregalad
It seems a moot point

:D

[Nibs]

Yes! Moot indeed! But why not have fun speculating, too?

Perhaps Tom is a being made after the manner of Tulkas by himself or another Valar, because he's perpetually giddy like him.
Then again, maybe he's a rogue Maiar, like unto the balrogs, except he went solo instead of joining Melkor (this could work for Goldberry, too).

Who knows?? But now everyone knows that I certainly don't!

[Nariel Starfire]

So technically speaking, if one was to drain Withywindle, or stop the spring from which it,er, springs, then one could kill Goldberry, am I right?

[Nibs]

Ah! That there's moot! Oh, how I revel in it!

Well, this is all opinion, because it doesn't really say... there's no tellin'...

Judge fo' yourself... no, I won't do it for you.

[Bregalad]

Well, it is called Ent-moot, after all!:D
Now watch me speculate all over the place. (better watch your feet, it could create quite a mess!:D )

Mythically speaking, (now there's a rather messy phrase right off!)
If a Dryad's tree dies, then the dryad dies. So I suppose if you could concieve of some way to destroy a whole river, you might actually kill Goldenberry. Actually, it isn't that hard too destroy a river. All you need is a lot of men, who make factories, who make pollution. I doubt there is a Naiad alive in the Ohio River!

[Earniel]

So if Tom is no Vala or Maia, could he be one of the Ainur then?

[markedel]

Valar and Maiar are Ainur

[Earniel]

I know that, but the Ainur that came to Arda in the beginning to give it form became Valar and Maiar. There were more Ainur who stayed with Eru. I was wondering if Tom had started out as one of the Ainur but instead of becoming a Vala or a Maia became rather something unique and new.

[Menelvagor]

That's an interesting thought, Earniel...

Nariel: That's my opinion, take it or leave it.