On the death of Arwen

[Earendil]

I recently read through LOTR again, this time paying more attention to the final fate of the characters. It was certainly sad to see the ultimate, but inevitable demise of some of the major players. However, the tendency was that they passed on with some added detail of reverence. For example, when Merry and Pippin passed on, they were "set beside the bed of the great king." Sam, Legolas, and Gimli eventually got their one-way tickets to the West. Galadriel, Gandalf and Frodo had already gone there. But Arwen really seems to get the short end of the stick.

First, she endures the pain of the loss of her Eldar kin. Galadriel, a major figure in her life is now gone, as is her father Elrond. She sacrifices passage to the west in order to be with her love Aragorn. At the same time, she has more or less renounced her Eldar kin by choosing mortality over immortality, again for love of Aragorn one would assume. But he finally passes on, and now she is yet again in great pain (although, one would assume she lived happily with Aragorn). So she says goodbye to her children and departs Minas Tirith to return to Lorien. At this point she has chosen to be in a place symbolic of the Eldar, yet she has also renounced them. Why doesn't she stay with her children? Well, it seems she is too sad to continue living. We can only assume her arrival at Lorien isn't a very pleasant one. The magic is now lost as the rings are gone. The Mallorn-leaves are falling before spring-- not a good sign. She is there alone, and finally dies alone. And the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men. Ouch!!!!!! But why would that be so? Aragorn's legacy is certainly maintained. Why not that of the Queen? Its also interesting that these developments are included in the Appendices.

I wonder why Tolkien had Arwen pass without veneration, and in such a painful manner. This seems uncharacteristic to me. One obvious argument is that her passing represents the unequivocal passing of the Eldar, and the emergence of the dominion of men. But hasn't this point already been made in no uncertain terms?

One thing that really interested me was Aragorn's last words to Arwen: "In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory. Farewell!"

Could this be the gift in death that the Silmarillion spoke of, perhaps a notion that mortal man has life beyond death, after all? This is the only place I can recall reading about the potential for mortal man's life after death. Or maybe my interpretation is off?

Anyway, I found the passing of Arwen perhaps the saddest part, for this being my most recent reading of the LOTR.

I'm wondering what some other's thoughts are on the points I made.

Earendil

[IronParrot]

Great post... I've thought about this too... and I really don't have much to add. After Aragorn's passing, with what happens to Arwen... don't you begin to lose the parallelism with Beren and Luthien from that point on?

[Tar Elenion]

Arwen's legacy is passed on as well. It is through her that Aragorn's descendants inherit the Elven-realms of the West and the (renewed) line of Luthien is continued (holy blood).

She also dies with the hope of being reunited with Aragorn in the 'elsewhither' that Men are gathered to. This is parallel to that of Luthien and Beren. Luthien was granted the gift of Men, that she might again reunite with Beren after their second deaths. If Arwen had chosen the fate of the Eldar she would have no hope of being with Aragorn again (at least while Arda endured). I think part of her final pain might be that 'doubt' that there is someplace for the fea of Men beyond death. That is she did not know for certain what happened after death as no Man had returned to say. Elves 'knew' what happened to them (rebirth or re-embodiment) for there were those who had returned.

[IronParrot]

Welcome to the board, Tar Elenion...

[arynetrek]

Arwen leaving Minas Tirith:

she & Aragorn lived there for over 100 years before he died, maybe the memories were just too painful...
but then returning to Lorien wouldn't be much better.

also, in the Lorien section of FotR, it says that Arogorn "left the hill of Cerin Amroth & came there never again as a living man." As a living man? i'm no expert on what happens to dead men in Middle-Earth (must read Sil...) but doesn't it seem odd that Tolkien adds the condition of "living" to that sentence? in his style, wouldn't it be appropriate to the style to say something along the lines of "he left the hill of Cerin Amroth, never to walk upon its green slopes again?" or something equally final? it just sticks out in my mind that Tolkien would write that specific line about Aragorn & the grave of his beloved.

aryne *

PS - noldo, i love the icons, but Arwen just doesn't look like herself. but i'll use her anyway...

[noldo]

I think the Arwen-icon looks strange too... But don't worry, it looks much better than any of the other models I made of her...

I think the lips and eye-lashes are sweet...

That's just the way I imagined her to be... Anyone has their own picture of Sweet Arwen and Fair Eowyn.

[bmilder]

I don't understand why Aragorn didn't find the time to ever go back to Lorien. It was the former home of his wife, surely he could have taken a vacation or two there at some point :p

[arynetrek]

actually, i was referring to after death. men have spirits, & if they are "the only truly free race" as someone on Entmoot has called them, then i don't see why his spirit couldn't have chosen to return. he did say that Cerin Amroth was where his heart would remain, & it was the deathbed of his wife, so i think it is possible (though maybe not proveable) that he returned in spirit.

i know this is all based on a whole lot of conjecture, feel free to tear apart at the Ents' discretion.

i do think that he could have found time to go back to Lorien - but there were probably other reasons, such as the demise (?) of the elves - would he really want to return to suck a beautiful place, only to find it empty of the people who made it legendary?

aryne *

[andustar]

i thought it was the one of the saddest parts in the book... :(

[arynetrek]

i agree :(

aryne *

[amyfortuna]

Y'know, I was always a little bitter about that too. But rereading LOTR this years I noted one sentence that made it all better. At the end of the chapter where Aragorn is on Cerin Amroth, Tolkien says, "Taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill, and came there never again *as living man*.

That's just incredibly touching, it implies that he *did* come there again, to meet Arwen after his death. *sigh* Makes it a little easier for her.

[Shanamir Duntak]

Does it realy have to finish like a just too american movie??? Can't somebody be sad at the end?? Why search for a good side in a sad story. Anyway, you know they met again after her death... that's enough...

Shan

[Gilthalion]

There's some good thinking and some sharp minds out there. The sorrow of departing life is captured by Tolkien and that is one of the kinds of things that makes his work truly great.

Your average hack & slash, sword & sorcery, pet-the-friendly-dragon, unending-serial-soap-opera-fantasy works sold these days lack the keen insights that Tolkien set down.

The deepest sorrows we feel are felt in this work. It makes the merriment more merry, the wind more keen, the joys more exalted.

I would like to see an historical study of the deaths of the famous and the infamous in our own history. The deaths of Rasputin, Robespierre, Hitler, Mussolini, and so many other evil men, were horrible and sordid. Elizabeth I, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, died peaceful deaths in bed, in honored old age. Joan of Arc died in agony made glorious by a spirit that burned brighter than the flames that consumed her body.

There is probably not a one-to-one correlation, but in our bones (so to speak) we feel that the way one dies is somehow emblematic of the life one has chosen.

Arwen Undomiel sacrificed life that would endure until time's end, along with the wonders and delights of Valinor, not to mention the fellowship of Elves she had known and loved for many many years. Her sacrifice was hard and most bitter when Aragorn, for whom she sacrificed all of this, was taken from her as well.

I choose to think that Tolkien's hint that Aragorn's spirit returned to where his heart was, and lingered in waiting for Arwen, until she lay down her life that had grown to bitter to endure, and so came to find him again.

This certainly would fit with Tolkien's Christian beliefs about an afterlife in which, "all our tears are wiped away."

[Rambunctious Ugnaught]

I recently read through LOTR again, this time paying more attention to the final fate of the characters. It was certainly sad to see the ultimate, but inevitable demise of some of the major players. However, the tendency was that they passed on with some added detail of reverence. For example, when Merry and Pippin passed on, they were "set beside the bed of the great king." Sam, Legolas, and Gimli eventually got their one-way tickets to the West. Galadriel, Gandalf and Frodo had already gone there. But Arwen really seems to get the short end of the stick.


Where did you read all this? I thougght the books ended when Frodo went to the west? Is ther a book I don't knwo about?

[bmilder]

You'll notice that Return of the King contains several appendices. The appendices include a lot of great information that didn't make it into the narrative. I don't remember exactly, but I think the info being referred to is in Appendix A.

[Eruve]

The story of Aragorn's and Arwen's death is found in part v to Appendix A, "Here Follows a Part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen". Appendix B has info on other members of the Fellowship, see especially "Later Events Concerning the Members of the Fellowship of the Ring".

[arynetrek]

i've only read LotR 3 times, but i think i've read the tale of A&A about 10... as tragic as it is, it's a great tale.

aryne *

[Gothmoga]

Arwen the dear thing,was probably so ashamed of the actions of her old man "Aragorn" in as much as he lay down his life freely, and left her an ancient Elf princess alone, that she probably went to loth lorien and died of embarrasment,think about it ladies,you give up immortatality and ageless beauty for a careworn ranger...Yerrrrrr??

[Wizard of the Secret Fire]

Yerrrrrrreminds me of another poster... :)

[Shanamir Duntak]

Who would that be Wiz

[Wizard of the Secret Fire]

Balrog at Planet Tolkien liked to say that :)

[Shanamir Duntak]

Well, maybe he'll be kind enough to say if he's the same? :)

[Snowdog]

in the Lorien section of FotR, it says that Arogorn "left the hill of Cerin Amroth & came there never again as a living man."

An interpretation of this could be that he returned there only in the memories of Arwen?

[Silpion]

The death of Arwen was bittersweet and poignant because Arwen did lose everything. Her parents and grandmother were gone (I am unsure if Celeborn was still around or her brothers) and she had no way of following them since that road was closed to her, her husband had passed on, and even though she had children she did not seem to want to stay around for them. She travels to Lorien, which at this point is probably just a shadow of what it used to be, lays herself down on a mound and dies. And, she is not even remembered afterwords. Of course, all of this is just my humble opinion, but I am fine with this ending because I believe (I have no proof, this is just my personal view) that Arwen and Aragorn are united wherever they ended up after they both passed on from Middle Earth. If Tolkien's intentions were to have the Elves fade from memory then maybe Arwen was a part of that "fading".

[aurora7054]

well all it says was that the eldars(elves) sailed to the Undying lands. It never says that the characters never meet again after Death. I would think that since both man and the elves are both childeren of Eru Ilúvatar that he wouldn't have the heart to keep both them away from each other. So I believe that Arwen gets to see both her family(dad/mother/ect) and her new family(daughters/son/husband) after her death. Since tolkien/c.s.lewis had the same idea of heaven just a different title for it. Undying land(tolkien) Aslan's country/ Great land beyound the sea/My fathers country or is it land(lewis) and if i remember right i dont think that tolkien said there wasn't a place for man to go to after death..It just might mean that since elves are perfect(in and at everthing) and inmortal that they get to see heaven 1st. and if that wasn't right why let froddo/gimli/ Bilbo go to the undying land (just be cause they eather carried the ring or help carry the task of takening it to mount doom...like Gandalf says "Death is only the Beginning" as seen below

Pippin: I didn't think it would end this way.
Gandalf: End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path. One that we all must take... The gray rain curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass. And then you see it...
Pippin: What--Gandalf, see what?
Gandalf: White shores. And beyond... A far green country, with a swift sunrise... (sigh).
Pippin: (smiling) Well... that doesn't sound so bad.
Gandalf: No... No it isn't (smiling, tears).

so all in all they all might see each other again

[The Gaffer]

Holy thread necromancy! :D

Hello aurora.

Frodo, Sam and Gimli don't "undie". They are allowed to pass into the West so that they can be healed fully of the hurts of the Ring (in the case of the former two) or so they can see Galadriel again (in the case of Gimli) before they die naturally.

If you're interested in this side of the story, I'd recommend the Silmarillion.

Those lines from Gandalf in the film are lifted from Frodo's dream in Tom Bombadil's house in the books, by the way.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Could this be the gift in death that the Silmarillion spoke of, perhaps a notion that mortal man has life beyond death, after all? This is the only place I can recall reading about the potential for mortal man's life after death.lMen have the clear promise of the continuation of their spirit after death of the body, as do Elves. What men have ia additional is that their spirit is free (and likely compelled, after a time) to leave to earth, and to seek other existances, they also have a prophecy that their spirits will at some time in the future, beyond the eding of the world, dwell with Eru. Elvish spirits are bound to the earth, and after the destruction of their bodies, they can, after a period in limbo (halls of Mandos), be re-embodied in Aman. Elvels however have NO prophecy or guidence as to what will happen to their spirits at the ending of the world. They do not know if they will continue beyond the end of the world, or if so, where.

The different destinations of the spirits is the main cause of the deep grief for Elrond. He is facing separation from Arwen until at least the ending of the world, and possibly forever.

[Jon S.]

Elrond got to spend many years longer with his daughter than I ever will with mine so it's frankly hard for me to feel extra sorry for him about Arwen. He should let go of his grief and appreciate better was he was given.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Men have the clear promise of the continuation of their spirit after death of the body, as do Elves. What men have ia additional is that their spirit is free (and likely compelled, after a time) to leave to earth, and to seek other existances, they also have a prophecy that their spirits will at some time in the future, beyond the eding of the world, dwell with Eru. Elvish spirits are bound to the earth, and after the destruction of their bodies, they can, after a period in limbo (halls of Mandos), be re-embodied in Aman. Elvels however have NO prophecy or guidence as to what will happen to their spirits at the ending of the world. They do not know if they will continue beyond the end of the world, or if so, where.

The different destinations of the spirits is the main cause of the deep grief for Elrond. He is facing separation from Arwen until at least the ending of the world, and possibly forever.Sounds a lot like Anderson's little mermaid.

[Rían]

Elrond got to spend many years longer with his daughter than I ever will with mine so it's frankly hard for me to feel extra sorry for him about Arwen. He should let go of his grief and appreciate better was he was given.But it's pretty hard to be one of only a tiny number (along with his wife, and Thingol and Melian, and Idril and supposedly Tuor) of all your elven friends who will NOT see their children again for all eternity (as far as he knows).

[Wayfarer]

True, but let's be frank about this: Not seeing your child until the end of time because they've chosen to go beyond the world to be with their true love for ever and ever is one thing. But as sad as that might seem, it's probably a less painful option than not seeing them until the end of time because of the horrific, soul-scarring tragedy of their lives has left them unwilling or incapable of functioning as a corporeal being until without a billion years of psychotherapy.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

well all it says was that the eldars(elves) sailed to the Undying lands. It never says that the characters never meet again after Death. I would think that since both man and the elves are both childeren of Eru Ilúvatar that he wouldn't have the heart to keep both them away from each other. So I believe that Arwen gets to see both her family(dad/mother/ect) and her new family(daughters/son/husband) after her death. Since tolkien/c.s.lewis had the same idea of heaven just a different title for it. Undying land(tolkien) Aslan's country/ Great land beyound the sea/My fathers country or is it land(lewis) and if i remember right i dont think that tolkien said there wasn't a place for man to go to after death..It just might mean that since elves are perfect(in and at everthing) and inmortal that they get to see heaven 1st. and if that wasn't right why let froddo/gimli/ Bilbo go to the undying land (just be cause they eather carried the ring or help carry the task of takening it to mount doom...like Gandalf says "Death is only the Beginning" as seen below


Someone has probably already said this, but... that just ain't so, Jimmy. When the Elves die, they go to Aman. When Men die, they do as well, but they are not allowed outside the Halls of Mandos, and they only stay briefly, before they pass outside the Circle of the World, to an unknown fate.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

True, but let's be frank about this: Not seeing your child until the end of time because they've chosen to go beyond the world to be with their true love for ever and ever is one thing. But as sad as that might seem, it's probably a less painful option than not seeing them until the end of time because of the horrific, soul-scarring tragedy of their lives has left them unwilling or incapable of functioning as a corporeal being until without a billion years of psychotherapy.

That's why Feanor caused all that trouble, because he was hurting inside.

[Landroval]

well all it says was that the eldars(elves) sailed to the Undying lands. It never says that the characters never meet again after Death.
I believe you are rather singular in this opinion on this thread
What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.
It just might mean that since elves are perfect(in and at everthing) and inmortal that they get to see heaven 1st.
Well, elves are not perfect. In fact, nobody is perfect, at least in an incarnate/limited form
The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility if not inevitable. Trees may 'go bad' as in the Old Forest; Elves may turn into Orcs, and if this required the special perversive malice of Morgoth, still Elves themselves could do evil deeds.
Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.
However, I very much enjoy your comparison of Aman to heaven, as the Undying Lands are as Arda Unmarred would have been, for all its inhabitants. However, Aman as it is, is not heaven for humans; as Tolkien comments in Myths Transformed, it would actually subject humans to great suffering over time, if they did not resist the temptation to unnaturally prolongue their lives. Moreover, in Laws and Customs of the Eldar, HoME X, it is further argued that Aman is not free from evil, since at least the elves brought with them the marring of Arda (plus the above mentioned potential for all beings in Ea to err).
They are allowed to pass into the West so that they can be healed fully of the hurts of the Ring (in the case of the former two) or so they can see Galadriel again (in the case of Gimli) before they die naturally.
Hm, is this bolded part mentioned anywhere? I would rather suspect he went there first and foremost to be with his friend Legolas (who, according to the tale of years, accompanied him).
Elvels however have NO prophecy or guidence as to what will happen to their spirits at the ending of the world. They do not know if they will continue beyond the end of the world, or if so, where.
True, they don't know for sure; however, what it can be "surmised", is that Arda the Blessed will be inhabited by Elves and Men, and it will be a part of Ea, remade from the beginning with the help of Elves, without any marring in it (cf Laws and Customs of the Eldar, HoME X).
When the Elves die, they go to Aman.
That is, if they choose to obey the summons of Mandos :). Otherwise, they are likely to end up as your friendly (or not so much) Casper...

[The Gaffer]

Hm, is this bolded part mentioned anywhere? I would rather suspect he went there first and foremost to be with his friend Legolas (who, according to the tale of years, accompanied him).


I think it is hinted at in the Tale of Years, or somewhere in the Sil, or maybe Unfinished Tales.

Not too precise a citation, granted, but I don't have the books in front of me.

[Valandil]

I think it is hinted at in the Tale of Years, or somewhere in the Sil, or maybe Unfinished Tales.

Not too precise a citation, granted, but I don't have the books in front of me.

Actually, the very end of Appendix A - see the last paragraph. I don't recall for sure anywhere else that talks about it.

EDIT: Just checked - you were right about the Tale of Years. This is also mentioned in the very last entry of Appendix B.

[Landroval]

Well, I only knew of Appendix B and letter #154 as referring to the departure of Gimli. However, none of these sources (not even App. A), mention Galadriel as the main reason. On the whole, it seems like his friendship with Legolas is the main cause. At least, that's my understanding.
But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf
We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Gloin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.

[The Gaffer]

Thanks for posting those.

Bit of both then? Perhaps with mostly Legolas's friendship being the motivating factor.

I always took Gimli at his word in terms of how he valued her gift above all the jewels in the earth.

[Landroval]

I agree.

I wonder how much of his affection for Galadriel came from the fact that she petted his dwarven ego in Lothlorien :D (that was evil, I know).

Back to the original topic...

[Lefty Scaevola]

Both texts about Gimli going to Aman contain internal caveats suggesting that this may not be true or may be poetic/bardic license within the internal 'reality' of Arda. "It is said" and "We have heard". This is similar, but with the tale more supported, to that of Turin being made into an elven like immortal and living in Aman.

[Ingwe]

Gandalf's words ("...White shores, and a far green country...") with Pippin seems to say that even in death there is hope and so Tolkien's views on that are very encouraging. Arwen's passing after the loss of Aragorn I would like to believe is not altogether hopeless and full of despair, for in death there could be life, given that death is referred to as a Gift so many times. Death removes the sorrows and tears that life flooded you with. "We are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory..." <- seems to say, at least to me, that more than memory is sort of like saying the sorrow in life that we felt not only from what we're going through at the present, but also harmful memories from the past, are cleared (perhaps not cleared, but no longer matter anymore), and all there will be is the Great Reunion after life has passed.

Believing in that Great Reunion and celebration of the loss of sorrow after life passes on is sometimes what helps people keep their sanity, but I'd rather believe that it's more than that (perhaps to further reinforce my own sanity). I don't believe in any end of any kind, that somehow everything is one day reorganized again to make a new world (aka the prophecy of the end, which really isn't the end at all). The Elves have a certain amount of time to live, and aren't much different than humans. Eventually the old world will fade away with time, even the Valar themselves will fade over time apparently (Elves as The Organization of Future Valar of Ea 2.0?). Those who refused to be summoned to Aman exist as wraiths or ghosts, which I kind of think is even more tragic than the story of Arwen and Aragorn. The world would change around them and they'd have no impact on how it changes. As much as they'd like to change things (either for the better or otherwise depending on how changing into a wraith affected their personalities), they can't. They will (sort of) live on and have no affect on anything until the end of this world. It's like limbo, except that they haven't even been judged yet at the Halls of Mandos. So they have a long time to grieve about the sorrows they still remember, and regret the choices they made in staying behind while the rest of their kin moved on to the west. That's gotta be quite painful and however they live must be pretty harsh. That's why most of the ghosts you hear about seem to have an unpleasant or bitter personality, sort of like the Army of the Dead. If I were cursed with something like that and forced to live 2,000 years in a mountain, unable to do anything else except think about what I did, until someone labeling himself the King of Gondor came around, I'd be pretty unpleasant as well I'd imagine. "Dang it, why won't the King of Gondor come here. I'm getting restless! Well it's time for dinner, if there were such thing for a ghost." :p They can't even eat! So life for the remainder of the Elves that stayed behind must be quite similar. "Well, let's play cards for the 40 millionth time in a row." I have no idea what I'd do with my time if I were a wraith or a ghost. Haunting people would get old after a while too.

I wonder how much of his affection for Galadriel came from the fact that she petted his dwarven ego in Lothlorien (that was evil, I know).

LoL. Gimli sure changed his tune on Elves quite quickly upon meeting her that's for sure. :D

[Olmer]

Is there, in Tolkien's text, any indication that the Elves, who decided to stay behind, are eventually turning into wraiths?
Gimli sure changed his tune on Elves quite quickly upon meeting her that's for sureThe skill of persuasion is a powerful weapon. :rolleyes:

[Jon S.]

Gimli sure changed his tune on Elves quite quickly upon meeting her that's for sure. :D
That is the effect respect and caring can have on a person. We all know from personal experience that, yes, sometimes just one person can make all the difference in the world for another. I only wish we had more of it in the real world.

[Gordis]

Is there, in Tolkien's text, any indication that the Elves, who decided to stay behind, are eventually turning into wraiths?

Here is the quote about the Lingerers - faded invisible Elves, who still dwell in ME, but mostly belong to the World of Shadow. I am not sure they could be called "wraiths" but anyway they are close enough to them.


Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), The Later Quenta Sil., Laws and Customs among the Eldar

“the Lingerers, whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully"
“Moreover, the Lingerers are not houseless, though they may seem to be. They do not desire bodies, neither do they seek shelter, nor strive for mastery over body or mind. Indeed they do not seek converse with Men at all, save maybe rarely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fair. Then they may reveal to him their forms (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty.”

“Thus it may be seen that those who in latter days hold that the Elves are dangerous to Men and that it is folly or wickedness to seek converse with them do not speak without reason. For how, it may be asked, shall a mortal distinguish the kinds [Lingerers and Houseless]?”

“Yet the answer is not in truth difficult. Evil is not one thing among Elves and another among Men. Those who give evil counsel, or speak against the Rulers (or if they dare, against the One), are evil, and should be shunned whether bodied or unbodied.”

[Ingwe]

That is the effect respect and caring can have on a person. We all know from personal experience that, yes, sometimes just one person can make all the difference in the world for another. I only wish we had more of it in the real world.

Agreed, but seeing it from Gimli would have seemed surprising, given how the Dwarves see the Elves most of the time.

Here is the quote about the Lingerers - faded invisible Elves, who still dwell in ME, but mostly belong to the World of Shadow. I am not sure they could be called "wraiths" but anyway they are close enough to them.

Yep, that's the one. I'm kinda stupid so I called them wraiths. :o

[Olmer]

I am aware of this note. Thank you.
Actually, I think this is what hapenned to Celeborn -he just faded away, still lingering on earth.
I was surprised to find the wraiths among elves.

[Gordis]

Celeborn? You think he preferred to fade than to be reunited with his spouse? :D

[Olmer]

Celeborn? You think he preferred to fade than to be reunited with his spouse? :D
Was not it too obvious? :D :D

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

I've wondered this same thing myself. I never was much interested in the relationship between Arwen and Aragorn, but Arwen's passing seems to be the saddest of all. I've wondered why didn't she stay in Minus Tirith? Why couldn't she be placed beside Aragorn when she passed?

Then I thought about myself and I realized I'm the same way. I have people who love me and who I love. My parents are gone and I loved them more than anything, but when my time comes, I don't want to be buried with them. I grew up in the Appalachian Mts and though there is really nothing left for me there now, I want to be buried there because it's the place in my life where I was the happiest. So in some ways, I can relate to Arwen. I often get the urge to go back to my "home".

[Jon S.]

Just the other day I told my own wife, "Honey, we're married 'til death do us part ... and after that, I'm a free man." Can't understand why she smacked me!

All right, joking's over. :) Seriously, what happened to Arwen when Aragorn died is really no different from what happens to many of us, every day, when a loved one dies. We all have the choice to find new purpose in life or to surrender and become the figurative equivalent of a living wraith.

Arwen's reaction upon Aragorn's death made for good reading and perhaps was inevitable given her Elven heritage but to be perfectly frank it is neither the norm nor admirable.

[Gordis]

Somehow such reaction seems a norm for the Elves. Once their spouse is gone, they loose interest for life. The idea of "living on for the sake of their children" - quite usual for Men (esp. women) - seems totally alien to them.

Take Melian. Thingol is dead and she even drops her Girdle, putting all her people (including her very own grandson) in mortal danger.
Elwing is even worse - abandoning her 2 sons in perilous situation without a second thought - everything for her husband.
Mithrellas - once her mortal husband is dead (or had he just grown old? - I am too lazy to check) she disappears. Imagine, she could have stayed around singing songs and telling tales to her children, grand-children, great-great-great-grandchildren - all the way to Prince Imrahil.;)
Arwen - I guess the grown-up Eldarion didn't really need her anymore. But his kids surely loved granny Arwen...

Some women show similar behaviour: Rian, Tuor's mother and the widow of Huor, had just given birth to her son and then "departed from Hithlum, and going to the Haudh-en-Ndengin she laid herself down upon it and died".
This attitude always seemed most "inhuman" and quite selfish to me.

Contrast it to Turin's mom, Morwen. She must have believed her husband dead and lost forever, but she lived for her children - even on occupied territory, even sending Turin away to safety. She is the one to admire.

[Valandil]

Interesting thought.

Interesting also - that Arwen had prior personal experience in it. After all, her mother went away over sea, leaving her father alone. So Elrond was actually another (rare) case of someone 'hanging on' afterwards (and so was her maternal grandfather, Celeborn).

Maybe Arwen noticed some major changes for her father once her mother was gone - and didn't like to think of them happening to her... ??

[Jon S.]

Not comparable situations to me. An Elf leaving ME for Valinor could be visited again by also returning to Valinor. Arwen, in contrast, could visit Aragorn (if at all) only by also dying ... which of course, she soon did.

In 2509, Elrond's wife Celebrian was captured by Orcs in the Redhorn Gate while she was journeying to Lothlorien. She received a poisoned wound and was tormented by the Orcs before her sons Elladan and Elrohir found her and rescued her. Elrond was able to heal her physical wounds, but Celebrian remained troubled by her memories and fear and she could no longer find joy in Middle-earth. She left Middle-earth in 2510 and sailed over the Sea to the Undying Lands.

http://www.tuckborough.net/elrond.html