Where exactly are the Undying Lands?

[Nariel Starfire]

Here's my problem:

There's this big deal about the Elves all going to the Undying Lands. Am I mistaken or are the Undying Lands the same as the Grey Havens and if they are, what's the big deal? ON the map of Middle Earth, the Havens are right next door to the Shire. And why did Frodo get on a boat to go there? Can anyone clear this up?

[Ñólendil]

The Undying Lands are not the Grey Havens. The Undying Lands was where they're heading to at the end of the Lord of the Rings, they were going there from Mithlond ('Grey Havens'). The Undying Lands were over the western Sea, in the True West as it was called. The idea was that if you head in a direct line from the Grey Havens on their enhanted ships you would find the Lost or Straight Road.

At a certain point -- instead of turning with the 'bent seas' and travelling along the round earth -- the ship would embark upon the Straight Road and leave Middle-earth altogether and find the True West; Fäerie, the Undying Lands. It consisted of the Lonely Isle and the Land of the Valar ('Authorities'). The Valar and their servents the Maiar were the oldest beings in the Universe, the Holy Ones, the first spirits created by God. The Land of the Valar was where the High Elves lived, it's where the Elves went when they wearied of the world and it is also where the Wizards came from. Frodo went there so as to be healed before he died, so he could be in peace and leave the world willingly.

[FrodoFriend]

Waaaaaaaaaayyy out West! I've been trying to get there but keep going around in circles. :mad:

[Feraway Hawkbriar]

well se first you go down I-5 till you get to the green shed then...oh..wait...thats how you get to the dump...

[FrodoFriend]

And there sits Manwe upon the highest mountain of garbage in the world . . .

[barrelrider110]

YOU


SHOULD


HAVE


BOUGHT


A



SQUIRREL

[Radagast]

Eh?

[barrelrider110]

It's from "Rat Race" If you have an opportunity to see the movie, its very funny. If you do, you'll understand.:D

[markedel]

Heh

Use the rocketship-of mithril and elven glass.

(aluminum and fiberglass)

[ragamuffin92]

QUOTE "Frodo went there so as to be healed before he died, so he could be in peace and leave the world willingly."
Inoldonil, could you please tell me where you got this information? I don't recall reading it anywhere (tho I'm not finished my journney through Tolkienland, yet. I've read "The Sil." and "Unfinished Tales," and am reading "Letters," right now). I've never seen anything that suggested that Frodo (or Sam or Gimli) had any final destination beyond the Blessed Realm!?!?

To everybody and anybody:
Now I'm REALLY confused about the Blessed Realm and the Guarded Realm. I had thought that they were one and the same, but it seems that they are not. I've just hopped around Silmarillion and didn't see any clarification.
Thx, in advance

[Ñólendil]

Well, Blessed Realm = Aman which for the part = Valinor. In the Third Age the Blessed Realm ('Aman') included Tol Eressea (the Lonely Isle) as well.

The info. about Frodo is in the Letters. Go to the Index (if your edition has one), and look up Frodo, it should have a reference to it. All pure-blooded mortals except for Tuor had to be mortal and leave the World eventually.

[ragamuffin92]

You are 100% correct. Thanks, Inoldonil. The passage you mentioned is in letter #246, in approx. the ninth paragraph. I find this part of Tolkien lore very surprising, although it is not inconsistent with other known laws and principles of ME spirituality. As a Catholic, Prof. T. believed in Purgatory, and Frodo's* time in the Undying Lands were only temporary and purgatorial.

* As well as Bilbo's, by inference--but how about Sam, who bore the Ring for only a short time, and was not greatly wounded by it, as far as I know?

[Kiri]

First star on the left, and straight on 'til morning.

[Ñólendil]

Muffin-rag, you'll find Sam's fate in the Appendices of the Lord of the Rings, at the end of The Tale of Years.

[ragamuffin92]

Thanks, Inoldonil, but what I meant was that if Frodo's stay in the Undying Lands was for healing and Bilbo was to be his companion, what exactly was Samwise sent there for? I don't believe that Professor Tolkien ever addressed Sam's or Gimli's stay there, except for brief mentions.

[Nariel Starfire]

Thanks guys, but Kiri I was wondering if you did that on purpose or if you didn't know that it was "second star to the RIGHT and straight on 'til morning"

[Churl]

Ragamuffin, I believe that Sam was allowed to sail from the Grey Havens because he was also a Ring-bearer, if only for a short time.

From The Return of the King, Book VI, Chapter IX ("The Grey Havens"):
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbspThen Bilbo woke up and opened his eyes. ‘Hullo, Frodo!’ he said. “Well, I have passed the Old Took today! So that's settled. And now I think I am quite ready to go on another journey. Are you coming?’
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp‘Where are you going, Master?’ cried Sam, though at last he understood what was happening.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp‘To the Havens, Sam.’ said Frodo.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp‘And I can't come.’
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp‘No, Sam. Not yet anyway, not further than the Havens. Though you too were a Ring-bearer, if only for a little while. Your time may come. Do not be too sad, Sam. You cannot always be torn in two. You will have to be one and whole for many years. You have so much to enjoy and to be, and to do.’

[ragamuffin92]

True, Churl. And maybe he also needed some healing bfore death, just like Frodo (but not as much, since he didn't carry the ring very long). But I wish Professor T had talked more about the mortals' (Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli) temporary stay in the Undying Lands. If I meet the Prof in Heaven, I'll ask him.

a joke (I love this one)...
Teacher: What is your favorite story?
Little girl: Jonah being swallowed by the big fish.
Teacher: That's a ridiculous story! How could a man survive inside a fish for three days?
Little girl: I don't know, but when I get to Heaven, I'll ask him.
Teacher: What if he didn't go to Heaven?
Little girl: Then YOU can ask him.
: :p

[Arathorn]

i'm probably wrong and please correct me if so but...

i thought everyone who ended up in the undying lands live an immortal life;

that the elves were only immortal in middle earth because of the rings of power;

that they eventually had to move to the west when the one ring's destruction cost the other rings to lose their power;

that the ringbearers were the only mortals allowed to live there and be immortal because of the sacrifice they endured;

that frodo was especially needed to move there because his wounds were beyond healing.

[Lightice]

No no no no no no NO!
Sorry...:p
But firstly, elves were immortal in Eru's taughts already, and they were immortal long before making of the Rings of Power, which skill was actually teached by Sauron (or Annatar, as he called himself when visiting elves).
And in Silmarillion (Akallabeth-part) it is said, when kings of Numeron wanted to visit their friends at Valinor, that messanger of Valar told them, that Immortal Lands don't bring immortality, and that they would exactly die there more quickly, like a moths flying too close to a flame.

It is not known, if the Ringbearers could avoid it somehow, perhaps of Valar's mercy (though I can't imagine, how they could remove the Gift of Men from them. Perhaps Eru's mercy, if that's somehow possible).
Perhaps that was just a good and peaceful place to them to leave the world (or other words, die).

[ragamuffin92]

The only reference I've seen to the fact that Frodo went to the Undying Lands only temporarily, and would still die eventually, was in "Letters."

[Arathorn]

I stand....corrected and enlightened...:o

thanks lightice and ragamuffin92...

If I hadn't spoken that misconception I would've continued being a lost soul...

I must admit...I felt almost sheepish of 675 milliseconds. :D

[Jedipati]

This may sound stupid.... but whats this "letters?" Is it the same as the Unfinished Tales?

[ragamuffin92]

No, it doesn't sound stupid, so don't worry. :) The actual title of the book is "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien," selected and edited by Humphrey Carpenter. I just didn't feel like typing the whole title. Sorry if I confused you. :D

[Ñólendil]

if Frodo's stay in the Undying Lands was for healing and Bilbo was to be his companion, what exactly was Samwise sent there for?

Bilbo was not sent to be his companion. All three were allowed to go for healing. All were Ringbearers, all were touched by the Ring's evil.

Oh, sorry, I just saw this has been covered. Ah, oh well.

[ragamuffin92]

Did anyone mention the passage in "Letters" (# 246, par. 10, approx), where Professor T wrote, "Bilbo went too [referring to "over the sea"]...His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake." He then goes on to say that Bilbo was entitled to go for his own sake, as well. If this was already mentioned here, I apologize from the bottom of my redundant heart. :)