Glamdring, Foe-hammer

[Fat middle]

that's of course Gandalf's sword, that belong bebefore to Turgon, King of Gondolin.

it's the sword that Gandalf uses in his fight against the Balrog but... something is bugging inside my head:

how is it that Saruman didn't took Glamdring when he defeated Gandalf? was him allowed to keep it at the top of Orthanc when Gwaihir came to rescue him?

i think that there was no fight that time (it's never mentioned in the book) between Gandalf and Saruman. if Saruman would have tried to take Glamdring a quarrel had taken place, for sure. both knew that Saruman would win so it was no use to fight...

i've put this here in the books forum, but now i think this may also have consequences for PJ movies. i think there would be a great magic combat at Orthanc...

[Eruve]

Interesting question. Off the top of my head, I'm inclined to answer there was no struggle. At that point, Saruman was still the head of the Order (Gandalf only stripped Saurman of power later in TTT). I think maybe Gandalf was law-abiding enough to allow Saruman to take him captive for that time. Saruman never takes Gandalf's staff for that matter. I would think Saruman would see the staff as a greater threat.

[Syntia]

I think you're right

but i think Gandalf has been tricked up to his "cell"

[Finduilas]

Details are not given in the LOTR, but the sequence of events is that Saruman sends Radagast to find Gandalf, saying that he has some information on the Black Riders. Gandalf comes to Saruman in trust, and is asked about the location of the Ring. It is at this time that Gandalf discovers Sarumans treachery. He refuses to give any news of the Ring and is imprisoned at the top of Orthanc.
At Rivendell in the council, Gandalf says nothing of a fight.

[Elanor]

maybe Gandalf stashed his sword somewhere before going into Orthanc? If he wanted to be friendly, he might not want to take a physical weapon in.

[Finduilas]

That is a good possibility.

There is one wierd thing here, and that is that in the UT it says that Gandalf had seen signs that Saruman was searching for the One Ring back in the days of the Hobbit. Yet in the LOTR he has no idea that Saruman has turned to evil until he talks to him.

[Xivigg]

Maybe he was thinking that he was searching the ring to destroy it

and only later in the light of his treason did he truly understand his motive

[Fat middle]

i haven't read the Quest of Erebor yet (possibly next week or so), but i think that what Xivigg said may be right.

i don't think that Gandalf left Glamdring before going to Isengard: all right, if it was a friendly visit a weapon would be of no use, but his friend wouldn't take it as an offense.

[Smeagul]

Actually, you are all wrong.

It says in unfinished tales that Gandalf was really superior in strength to Saruman and that Saruman was scared of Gandalf. Perhaps Gandalf realised using his forsight that it would be better to wait and accept inprisonment of himself to let the hobbits meet Strider.


byebye

[Michael Martinez]

Saruman had an army at his disposal. His goal was to get information from Gandalf, not to kill him. Taking things from Gandalf could have gotten very messy. So I believe Saruman merely took the prudent action of confining Gandalf without actually engaging him in physical confrontation. Gandalf would probably have been willing to accept the confinement without a fight to learn as much as he might but also to avoid what might be a fatal error.

I don't think he expected rescue, but I get the impression Gandalf was acting on faith that things would work out. He had 2,000 years experience to rely upon, and he had been in a far worse dungeon twice before: Dol Guldur.

[Xivigg]

You're right

and anyway a sword might not be very usefull in a wizzard fight

[Grand Admiral Reese]

It was a High Elf Lord's sword from the First Age, but somehow, I get the impression that you're right.

[adanedhel]

I am sure that there was no fight, although in a physical fight I believe Gandalf might win. Gandalf's powers seemed to have been more physical..lightning etc..plus he did wield the sword. Saruman's main power seemed to be his voice, his powers of persuasion. However, I believe Gandalf went to the top of Orthanc thinking he could somehow escape, it was only when he reached the pinnacle that he noticed all of the wolves and orcs that were housed in Isengard, so even if he had fought his way past Saruman, he could never have fought his way through his army, so Saruman had no need to take his staff or the sword.

[Gilthalion]

I'm not sure that Gandalf ran around openly armed, prior to Frodo arriving at Rivendell with the Ring.

Perhaps Gandalf thought a sword of this lineage should be used only in great need (obviously anticipating this in the course of THE HOBBIT and the battle of the White Council against the Necromancer/Saruman). Otherwise, it might have seemed good to him to keep it in honor with the other great tokens in Elrond's keeping.

Arguably, he perceived no need of it from that day until the Fellowship set forth.

Regarding Saruman's motivations, I agree that it was not his intention to pick a fight (of dubious outcome) with Gandalf, preferring instead to imprison him in the hopes that Gandalf could thus be kept from doing harm to his plans, or that he might even "learn wisdom" during a long incarceration. In Orthanc, Saruman could still resist the Nazgul. Perhaps there was power there to imprison even Gandalf the Grey.

The Bakshi animated movie solved the problem by not including the sword, by "freezing" Gandalf, and by magically transporting him to the top of Orthanc.

I think that neither wizard wanted to hazard a battle, however armed. The victor would probably be tremendously weakened (Gandalf and the Balrog) and I think each had hope the other would come around to his way of thinking.

Saruman had the strategic upper hand and so perhaps Gandalf conceded and went to his imprisonment. But his staff could only be taken by force (again, dubious) or broken. Saruman chose to accept that he had imprisoned Gandalf and would have then considered himself ahead of the game. I wonder if he even could have, as the White, broken Gandalf's staff?

I think not unless Gandalf had lost the moral authority to wield it.

And I think certainly not after he had broken the White and had become Saruman of Many Colors, breaking his own authority over the others of his order in the process. Thus, he would have had no authority to break Gandalf's staff, and perhaps feared the attempt to take it.

And I think Elrond kept Glamdring at Rivendell for Gandalf.

And that's all the Lunch Hour speculation I have time for!

[Michael Martinez]

If the wizard's staves were really all that important to them (and I have a hard believing they were) then Gandalf ran around armed all the time. So there would be no reason for Gandalf not to run around with Glamdring all the time.

Saruman's power would not have been limited to his voice, however. He was a Maia, like Gandalf, and therefore could move mountains if he needed to (although perhaps not as easily as Aule). There is certainly evidence that Sauron was exerting his will to speed the Orcs toward Isengard and impede pursuit. Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas noted some sort of power like that seemed to be at work. Since the Orcs were running away from Mordor it's highly, highly doubtful that the oppressive will belonged to Sauron.

[Gilthalion]

Of course, the prop of an old man was known to be a weapon only by a relative few, I expect. I think the staff was a kind of badge of office and a weapon in the sense that anything might be a weapon in the hands of a wizard.

I'm sure one could probably get pretty specific about the name Gandalf and its meaning, the necessity for him to have a staff, and the consequent arming(?) of the other wizards with staves. In other words, I imagine that the name was the font of the inspiration.

Otherwise, I do not think that the wizards were openly armed. Glamdring seems exceptional and was carried in exceptional times. Gandalf had not yet gone openly to war against Mordor (or its allies) and I think that is a decent rationalization for him not bearing Glamdring upon this visit to Orthanc.

I'm basically following the principle that if Tolkien didn't mention that Gandalf had it, then he didn't. We know that he did when the Fellowship set out. Tolkien made a point of it for us.

We don't know that about any other period, save during THE HOBBIT, and upon leaving Rivendell (after finding the sword) he knew his course would diverge from the Dwarves and that he would be heading to Dol Goldur.

The mission of the Istari, was otherwise antithetical to them running about openly armed. We are accustomed to thinking of wizard's wands and staves as being tools, if not weapons, of magic. To the peoples of Middle-earth, the wizards were meant to seem like wise old men, persuading rather than daunting.

[Michael Martinez]

That principle cuts both ways. If Tolkien didn't say Gandalf left the sword with Elrond, then he didn't. If Tolkien didn't say that Gandalf took back the sword from Elrond, then he didn't.

Now, the first occurrence of Glamdring in the text is in "The Ring Goes South", where Gandalf appears with the sword strapped to his side. I think it's reasonable to ask if he had borne the sword before? But then, why would he need to walk around Rivendell armed? Also, Gandalf had no permanent residence. It might diminish the argument if he nonetheless had the equivalent of a safe-deposit box with Elrond.

And then there is the fact that he wore Glamdring to Bree in "Many Partings". As unusual as it may have seemed for Gandalf to leave Rivendell with Glamdring at his side, I think at most the passage only implies that he didn't normally wear the sword while in Rivendell. We cannot infer whether he took it with him or left it there most of the time.

Bearing a sword, even an Elven sword, would not violate the Valar's command that the Istari not take forms of power and majesty, or try to dominate the wills of Men and Elves.

[Gilthalion]

oops! double post!

[Gilthalion]

I always had the impression that Gandalf remained with Bombadil, doing some catching up, until at last taking to the Road again and finally sailing to the West.

(Which raises the question, did Elrond & Galadriel stop in on Gandalf and Bombadil?)

It might have thus made sense for him to take Glamdring with him as he lingered in departure from Middle-earth. Thus, he would have it with him on his last trip through Bree.

I also wonder, now that this thread has brought the issue to light, at Tolkien's subtlety in dealing with this point.

Since Tolkien seems to have dealt with this matter indirectly, all of this is naturally speculation. But I do think that he made a particular issue about how certain major characters treated or thought of their swords.

Perhaps Gandalf and the Istari did carry personal weapons at one time or another, though in my limited readings, I've not heard mention of it, except when Saruman attempted to murder Frodo. I know of nothing implicit about the wizards not carrying weapons and that is probably just a fancy of mine. Certainly Gandalf knew how to use Glamdring to great effect!

All the same, I think that Tolkien was making a point of letting us know when Gandalf was bearing this sword of great lineage. If he'd had it in Orthanc, it would be characterstic for us to be let in on it. Elrond insisted that Gandalf bear the sword of Turgon of Gondolin with honor. I would expect that to mean it's not for casual use, but only for the noblest quests. (And where could Glamdring be kept more honorably between such times than at Rivendell, from whence we always see Gandalf ride forth with it.)

Glamdring was not simply a magic sword for some paranoid Dungeons and Dragons player to have his character carry about when he gathers firewood! This is Tolkien writing of an heirloom of immense antiquity and rarity. For Gandalf to run about with it a good deal of the time might be something like Prince Charles roaming around cutting ribbons and the like with Excalibur dangling from his waist.

I think it was important to Tolkien for us to know when Glamdring was taken forth.

In the first instance, Gandalf bore Glamdring against the Necromancer.

In the next, he set forth openly against Sauron.

At the last, he took it with him on the Road to Valinor.

So, absent some margin note on some bit of Tolkien arcana, I just don't think Gandalf rode with Glamdring into Orthanc. I can't prove he didn't, but I don't fancy he did.

[Gilthalion]

Oh, I thought of this driving home...

I just looked and found no reference to Glamdring in the Battle of the Five Armies in THE HOBBIT. Now that seems kind of odd doesn't it?

I think my conjecture may explain that. It would have him sending the sword back to Rivendell with Elrond after the White Council finished driving the Necromancer from Dol Goldur, hence, he didn't have it at the Lonely Mountain or on the Road back.

Pure fancy.

[Michael Martinez]

Sorry, but having Gandalf send the sword back to Elrond while he travels through Mirkwood is pretty far-fetched in my view.

It is possible to infer too much from a text which does not address every point the readers can think of. Tolkien's chief concern was getting the Ringbearer to Mordor, not tracking the movements of specific weapons.

[Gilthalion]

Oh now come on!

I think it should be renamed, "The Glamdring Chronicles" ;)

[slippolives]

Deleting

[slippolives]

Gandalf had his wizards staff, the elven ring Narya, and the powerful elven sword Glamdring. Say even if he had all of these items on him when he visited Saruman, it may not have been easy, but I believe with some planning by Saruman, Gandalf still could be trapped in Orthanc.

For one thing it was an ambush, Gandalf had no idea he would be walking into a trap.

And Saruman had weapons and magic items of his own, his own staff, a great deal of knowledge of the rings of power, his voice, a palantir, and the most powerful of all I think being the tower of Orthanc itself.

Remember that Orthanc was constructed by the Numenoreans, skilled at making fortresses and enchanted structures (think Amon Hen). These were the people that subdued Sauron (think Ar-Pharazon), Isildur actually laid a curse on the Men of the White Mountains until they fullfilled their oath 3 millenium later! So the ancient Numenorean men were powerful in many ways, and the outpost of Isengard and the tower of Orthanc is one of the representations of that power. So possibly the tower gives a type of control or strength to the one that holds the keys, and if that one happens to be a powerful maiar like Saruman, then he would be very powerful indeed, possibly giving him control of others when inside the tower.

Remember Gandalf was trapped inside the actual tower, this was Sarumans realm, outside the tower things may have been different between the two, but inside Saruman was master and everything was in his favor. All Sarumans plans and powers were concentrated into that ancient structure, giving Saruman a tremendous advantage.

Another would be rings, there were many rings made by the elves of Eregion, a great many lesser rings were forged as "essays in the craft", of unknown but far lesser powers than the Great Rings. Saruman, a studier of rings, was not given one of the Great Rings, but he may have come up with some of the lesser. It makes sense since he had a great knowledge of ring-lore, he would at least have in his possession some of these rings. So with them he could increase his power as well.

He may have used the palantir in some way to get to Gandalf as well, seeing his whereabouts, seeing what he was bringing with him to Orthanc, and getting a strategy together to trap Gandalf in the tower.

Remember also he is master of the order of the Istari and it just may be that he could gain control of Gandalf by way of presence and authority which could have dominated Gandalf's will. That along with the power of Sarumans voice may have even made Gandalfs imprisonment a battle-free negotiation.

So Gandalf being ordered to the top of Orthanc by the combination of the power of Othanc, the power of Sarumans voice, use of the palantir, the fact that Gandalf was caught at unawares, the fact that Saruman was master of the order they belonged to, an understanding of Gandalf's ring, and the powers of Saruman's own rings all made it possible for Gandalf to be ensnared even when carrying a sword like Glamdring.

[The Gaffer]

Agree. LOTR is pre-Warcraft, pre-Gygax even, so Tolkien wasn't as concerned about the mechanics of "magic items". The key thing is to do with the power and authority that was Saruman's.

IIRC, Saruman also calls himself "ring-maker". Gandalf mentions it in his account of their first confrontation, and that he had a ring on his finger. I don't think he got married...

Note also that it takes an agent of Manwe to free Gandalf from his imprisonment.

[thekingofgondor]

I've always been under the impression that neither Gandalf nor Saruman had any intention of combating the other, knowing full well that releasing the other from their mortal shell could prove disastrous, as they would likely be able to confer with the Valar what had occurred (if Gandalf had, say, slain Saruman with Glamdring, as Saruman's treachery was not yet widely known, it would have looked like Gandalf had gone rogue and Saruman would have been sent back with the orders to break Gandalf's staff and cast him from the order, much like Gandalf ultimately did after his return) and return with the authority to strip the other of their power in Middle-earth. So Tolkien probably didn't bother mentioning what weapons Gandalf may or may not have carried as it was a moot point.