Questions about Sauron's Physical status in the Third Age

[Pailan]

OK, I have been through the books many times and this still nags me. Does Sauron exist in a physical form in the Third age of Middle Earth? We read at length about his "firey eye", "red eye" and so on. (Probably would make a great Visine commercial;) )

Yet, Gollum refers to the Black Hand of Sauron, twice and how it still has four fingers. At this point I am led to belive that the red, lidless, firey eye is a metaphor for the growing evil spiritual existance of Sauron and that while we do not get a true look at him in the Third Age he has again taken a physical form, albeit an ugly one, and is in Mordor.

I say this after talking it over with a friend, who after seeing the movie has read the books for the first time (and loved them.) His questions brought up some of my own. So I thought I would bring it to the Entmoot and see what you all think. Thanks in advance for your well reasoned and considered responses.

[Menelvagor]

Well, after he's defeated, it describes him as being reduced to a mere spirt of malace, and that seems to imply that he has lost whatever form he had.

[Pailan]

Yes. That makes sense. And I am reminded of the hand of Sauron trying to reach out towards The Lords of the West as the ring was destroyed. The difficulty of this question lies in the fact that ultimately Sauron is a spiritual being working in the physical confines of Middle Earth.

[Radagast]

A rather difficult question to answer. Indeed, if there is an answer. All we may do is theorise upon the subject.

However, if we just say that Sauron is a spiritual being or, if you will, a personification of all that is evil we are defeated by the fact that he is referred to as having a form. After all, one cannot cut the finger from a spirit.

[Menelvagor]

He did have a physical form though. I think it was kind of like what happened to Melkor/Morgoth; he took on a form and then just never left it, maybe lost the power to do so?

[Pailan]

Well it seems that Sauron is able to do most of his damage when he takes a physical form. Afetr the fall of Numenor he is said to never be able to take on a fair seeming appearance. So I guess he was somewhat handicapped in the Third Age.

[Menelvagor]

re: Afetr the fall of Numenor he is said to never be able to take on a fair seeming appearance.

Why did that happen? I've always wondered about that.

[Radagast]

Indeed.

Throughout the ages Sauron has taken many different forms. At the end of The First Age of the Sun we are told he appears as 'Annatar, Giver of Gifts' and this form is described as fair. When the Numeroreans came to make war on him in 3262 he surrendered but managed to corrupt the Numeroreans and in this he was so succesful he destroyed them. In that cataclysm his fair form was lost. Yet his spirirt fled to Mordor and with the One Ring he made himself a Dark Lord and, crucially, 'He made himself a dark warrior with black armour on burnt black skin and terrible raging eyes'.

Then this form was destroyed at the end of the Second Age after the Last Alliance of Elves and Men when the one Ring was cut from his hand. Yet, because the One Ring had not been destroyed his Spirit could rise again. In the year of 100 of the Third Age he manifested himself in the form of a great, lidless eye. These are all the forms of Sauron before his final defeat when the Ring was destroyed because his spirit was bound to the Ring.

[Menelvagor]

thanks:)

Is that from the Sil? (I haven't finished reading it yet)

So he became the eye, but what about gollum's accout (posted by Pailan) of him still having a hand. I think when they refer to his arm reaching out, it's ment metaphorically refering to his spies and forces and so on, but Gollum seems to describe a phisical hand. Also, when Frodo is sitting on Amon Din with the ring on, he sees a large hand shaped shadow or something reaching out towards him, which misses him through the intervention of Gandalf. Could that be something like what Gollum saw? I guess, maybe at that point, Sauron still had some ability to create things like that to creep people out. But, wait, he didn't know Frodo was there. Ah, now I'm confusing myself.

Did anyone understand that? HelP!

[Comic Book Guy]

Sauron was not a flaming red eye, he was more or less the same than than his form in Second Age, par a finger. Tolkien once wrote to a fan explaining what Sauron appearance was, he said that Sauron had black armour and had a Humaniod form. He also drew a picture for a dust jacket for the Return of the King, it had a Dark, Black form, somewhat similar to the Sauron in the recent Movie. Anyway, eyes don't have hands.

[Radagast]

Well, Gollum refers to him having a physical hand, yes.

I personally agree with you in as much as that the whole arm was to show his evil reach, so yes its a metaphor.

[Pailan]

Originally posted by Radagast
Hmm indeed...
Yet, because the One Ring had not been destroyed his Spirit could rise again. In the year of 100 of the THIRD AGE HE MANIFESTED HISMELF IN THE FORM OF A GREAT, LIDLESS EYE.

Well, I guess that settles it. I am curious about your source, though. Is it the Sil or HoME?

[Radagast]

My information was collected from 'TOLKIEN-The Illustrated Encyclopaedia' by David Day.

[Menelvagor]

Ok, just to really annoy Radagast, did Sauron always use the symbol of the Eye? Or was that just a Third Age thing, and if so, what was his symbol before then?

[Captain Stern]

I don't think David Day is that reliable a source. I have a book by him called: 'A Guide to Tolkien', he tends to make too many assumptions, he says that the Dragons were more powerful than the Balrogs e.t.c


Comic Book Guy: Sauron was not a flaming red eye, he was more or less the same than than his form in Second Age, par a finger. Tolkien once wrote to a fan explaining what Sauron appearance was, he said that Sauron had black armour and had a Humaniod form. He also drew a picture for a dust jacket for the Return of the King, it had a Dark, Black form, somewhat similar to the Sauron in the recent Movie. Anyway, eyes don't have hands.

Could it have been Sauron in the 1st age that he drew? If not, and you're in fact right, it seems that Peter Jackson has made yet another boo boo, because Sauron of the 3rd Age in the movie was definately a lidless eye. :mad:

[Comic Book Guy]

It refers to The Eye of Sauron in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third age" when he is preparing for war in the second age.

I doubt Peter Jackson made a mistake, I think he may have wanted to interpret Sauron as an eye.

[Radagast]

If my source cannot be counted as reliable then I have no further comments.

[sepulchrave]

Cheer up, Radagast... there are many books out there that make an attempt at the encyclopedia approach to Tolkiens world, they succeed to greater or lesser degrees. Unfortunately, it would seem as though Mr. Day, for all the beautiful presentation of his work, takes an inordinately large number of artistic and factual liberties with the body of Tolkiens work, embellishing in some areas in an attempt to clarify or make sense of aparent inconsistencies. This is not to say that Mr. Days work is without value; far from it, his books may contain much helpful material, however, this is yet another example that shows the need to use discretion when approaching secondary sources. The ultimate reference is always the original material, and if in doubt, the work of Tolkien is the final authority. However, this being said, it should be clear that a good deal of Tolkiens work should be considered "a work in progress", and, like it or not, there remain problem areas and inconsistencies that will never be resolved. These are the results of the simple fact that the author simply didn't have a long enough life to complete in its entirety, the enormous pile of interlinked histories that form the foundation for his created world, and various stories were still being developed when he died. This, the obsessive must learn to deal with! Considering the vastness of his accomplishment, I think this is a small thing.

[Pailan]

Some nice efforts here. But the question remains did Sauron achieve re-embodiement durring the Third age or was he a Flaming Eye or a spirit of evil?

Anyone care to have a go at this? Remember, Gollum acts as though he really saw Sauron, minus one digit. Thoughts, opinions, sources, and further questions welcome.

[allsirgarnet]

Could it be that Sauron manifested himself "in the minds" of any who entered the dark tower "as a lidless eye".

The Ringwraiths would have this link anywhere because Sauron "held" the 9 rings.

Also anyone using a Palantir connecting to Sauron in the Tower would also see this image manifested in their minds.

Anyone strong enough could do this as shown by Aragorns statement to Gimli and Legolas "in other guise".

So if Gollum was taken into Saurons presence he would be in Gollums mind so to speak,and so could then appear as he wished.

This may reflect on why he never left the Dark Tower,and why he needed the Mouth of Sauron to communicate his "wishes" to non followers or anyone not in the Tower.

Until he regains the ring he seems trapped within the Tower,able to project his thoughts either in someones direct presence (Gollum),The Palantir (Saruman) or by a specific link (9 rings).

Note that the Mouth of Sauron doesnt seem to have a direct link in any way,because if he had he could have stayed with the dwarves after his (Saurons) offer to them and just relayed their reply.Instead as stated by Gloin he went away and the returned twice more.

So it seems that he has no physical or spiritual "existance" as such ,but that his "'will" is held within the Dark Tower ,able in some ways to influence those he has a specific link to.

Any help?

[Pailan]

Originally posted by allsirgarnet
Could it be that Sauron manifested himself "in the minds" of any who entered the dark tower "as a lidless eye".[B]


Yes I have hadt his thought as well.


[i][B]
So if Gollum was taken into Saurons presence he would be in Gollums mind so to speak,and so could then appear as he wished.[B]


I see your logic here.

[i][B]
Until he regains the ring he seems trapped within the Tower,able to project his thoughts either in someones direct presence (Gollum),The Palantir (Saruman) or by a specific link (9 rings).

So it seems that he has no physical or spiritual "existance" as such ,but that his "'will" is held within the Dark Tower ,able in some ways to influence those he has a specific link to.


Yes, but Gandalf in his return tells the three companions about his struggle with the "Eye of Mordor" to draw his gaze away from his borders. Gandalf has no link to sauron except on the spirtual plane, if you will.

[allsirgarnet]

He does have one link in that he carries one of the three Elven Rings,which although has no direct link with Sauron,does allow interaction in a defensive way,for example Galadriels statements about the struggle between them.

I'm not sure but wasnt Gandalf discussing Frodo wearing the ring just after Boromir tried to take it?,and he himself intervening to deflect Saurons gaze away from frodo.In that case it was the Ring itself which allowed Saurons will "eye" to extend to a non follower other than was usual.

Within the tale there is as you say a lot mentioned of Saurons Gaze,by which i think it means his focus.If he actually had the means to "'project" his will beyond the tower and leave Mordor itself,he would have known much more than he apparently did.

When refering to his gaze i think its the focusing of his "resourses" its talking about,such as spies,the Nazgul and such.Only when for example Frodo wears the ring in or near to Mordor is Sauron himself able to "zero in".

That was the main reason i think for loosing the Nazgul in the hunt for the ring to begin with,because apart from the Palantirs limited use in scrying,Saurons only means of gathering information or influencing events was through others.

Without a "link" as defined above,he seems to have been effectively blind.

[Tar-Elenion]

What JRRT said regarding Sauron's form in the Third Age was:
"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic."
Letter 246

Sauon did not take the form of some disembodied eye.

[FrodoFriend]

Seeing as he's a Maia, he could probably take on the shape of big dark man or lidless eye at will. However, I think the phrase 'the black hand' is used metaphorically (like "his arm has grown long" or "his eye sees all"), to describe his influence. Sauron had more than just spies; he had a mental power to see and touch and change things from afar.

[allsirgarnet]

I'm not sure that as Frodofriend says Sauron did have such power in a general sense.If you look at what he actually does in the "'war" its very little directly,most of his work is done by his minions.

As a direct entity hes only apparent a few times,in the Palantirs,Galadriels mirror,Frodo near Rauros and his interigation of Gollum.

Everything else is either done or organised by his followers.If you give Sauron too much power to influence events DIRECTLY,then the tale as we know it has problems.

For example if Sauron had such power,why was he apparently blind to the one Rings whereabouts after Frodo reached Rivendell ?.As soon as the Nazgul reported back to him he would if so powered been able to watch Rivendell himself closely,but its clear that until Rauros and Frodo putting on the Ring,he had no real idea where it was.

This to me suggests a weakness and a dependency on his followers.Also regardless how he affects events he never seems able to leave the Dark Tower except in reaction (the Ring) to an event or when usng a Palantir.

Saurons real power and danger has to me always been his ability to influence others and use his strength of will.

[Pailan]

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
What JRRT said regarding Sauron's form in the Third Age was:
"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic."
Letter 246

Sauon did not take the form of some disembodied eye.

Thanks TE, perhaps for my birthday I will get a copy of the Letters.

[cian]

Hullo Tar-Elenion (again:)).

In addition to Tar-E's quote, there are other Letters references to Sauron's physicality. Another has JRRT explaining that it took "longer" for Sauron to rebuild his physical form after the Last Alliance, longer than it had after the fall of Númenor. Tolkien also wrote that Sauron was: "... always de-bodied when vanquished."