A Lord Of The Rings Question

[Death By Mac]

The grey havens is a port, correct? well where does it go? Numenor (sp?) i tought that it was sunk into the ocean or something. Anyway thanks i just finished the book, and I wanted to know where the Grey Havens go to.

[Finn]

The grey havens can send ships to the undying lands.... like at the end of the LOTR, Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel and of course Frodo leave that way. I don't know if it has more domestic uses, but I imagine it does. Cirdan hangs around there, it's his place... and since he gave the third ring to Gandalf, we can assume Gandalf arrived there from the Undying lands. So the port goes both ways. It's also near Hobbiton, which is why the hobbits get questioned about it in Lothlorien.

[Fat middle]

that's right. the ships of the Grey Havens could sail to the undying lands which are out of the circles of the world.

when Numenor was sunk the shape of the world changed, and the land of the Valar (Valinor) and the island where the elves go (Tol Eressea) fell out of the curvature of the earth. hence, no ship can reach those lands but those made especially for that purpose by the elves.

[Inoldonil]

Yes, Gandalf came from Valinor. He was a Wizard, an Istar, a low-ranking Maia. His name in the West was Olorin, and he was of the people of Varda and Manwe. Just as Saruman was Curumo of the people of Aule, Radagast was Aiwendil of Yavanna and the Blue Wizards were Alatar and Pallando of Orome. The info. is in Unfinished Tales.

The Grey Havens (Mithlond in Sindarin) were actually twin ports on either side of the Eastern end of the Gulf of Lune. Ships were always leaving them to sail to Aman*, specifically to Eressea since after the Downing of Numenore the Elves of Middle-earth were no longer allowed to sail all the way to Valinor (where the Valar, the Powers live).

*Aman was the Undying Lands, consisting of Tol Eressea and Valinor.

[Michael Martinez]

It's nowhere stated that Olorin was "a low-ranking Maia".

And the Elves of Mithlond most likely spent the majority of their time fishing or tending to their daily needs. Any Elf could build a ship that would take them to Aman. It was the ships which were special, not the ports from which they sailed.

Tolkien wrote that the ships which made the journey were specially hallowed for that purpose.

Early in the Second Age, it was Cirdan's mariners who took the Edain over Sea to Numenor. When a certain period of time had passed (Tolkien suggests about 50 years) the Valar told Cirdan not to take any more people to Numenor.

Cirdan also sent a ship to rescue Arvedui after the fall of Arnor. Of course, the ship was lost in a late winter storm with all hands. This was apparently not one of the hallowed ships.

It may be that the Hobbits who "went to sea" joined the crews of Elvish ships for brief periods of time.

[Spock1]

If the ports were not special then why do we not hear of elven ships putting in at any of Middle Earth's ports? Me thinks the ports may be special too.

Then of course we are speaking of a fictional work aren't we? Even JRT kept correcting things until he passed over.

:cool:

[Inoldonil]

Hello Michael. Are you feeling better? I posted your essays for you on the MEVault boards, I hadn't been paying attention and there you come along with four new ones. Olorin is indeed a low-ranking Maia. Tolkien said so in his Letters. He said the Istari were Maiar, but not neccissarily of the same level of order. And in a later letter he said they were lesser. So that makes Olorin and the other Wizards "low-ranking Maiar".

It might also be noted (as said vaguely and than clearly in Later Writings; Cirdan in HoME XII, first in the text and than the notes at the end) that Cirdan himself taught Earendil the art of ship-making, and so was Vingilot made.

[Grand Admiral Reese]

Spock1, there was another Elven port, near what is now Dol Amroth. But it was last used 500 years prior to LotR, though. The Grey Havens was the main port that the Noldor used to leave ME. Since most of the Noldor lived at Rivendell through the Third Age, it was the closest havens to them. Belfalas was closest to the Elves of Lorien, although Galadriel and her people left through Mithlond as it had the capabilities to build ships for that journey. Everyone at Belfalas anymore were Men(under Imrahil, at the time).

Although Legolas did build his own little ship and left through the Mouths of Anduin.

[Inoldonil]

You mean Lon Daer, Grand? I didn't read about it, so I'm wondering.

[Eruve]

Wasn't Lond Daer a Numenorean port? Founded by Aldarion somewhere in SA 800 (or something like that)? I think GAR is referring to the legend of Nimrodel and Amroth. There was an Elven port on the Bay of Belfalas (Lond Daer was part way up the Greyflood) at one time, because that was where Amroth's ship left from. When Nimrodel was lost, one of her "maidens" ended up marrying Imrahil's ancestor.

[Michael Martinez]

If the ports were not special then why do we not hear of elven ships putting in at any of Middle Earth's ports? Me thinks the ports may be special too.

No, there is nothing special about the ports. Nor is there any particular reason for us to read about Elven ships putting into the ports of Gondor or wherever.

Tolkien was first and foremost telling stories, and he could only tell so many stories. He never found the need or desire to tell a story about Elven mariners.

[Michael Martinez]

Hello Michael. Are you feeling better? I posted your essays for you on the MEVault boards, I hadn't been paying attention and there you come along with four new ones.

Yes, I'm feeling better. Thanks. I plan to get back to the Vault boards soon, but have been catching up with various projects and forums.

Olorin is indeed a low-ranking Maia. Tolkien said so in his Letters. He said the Istari were Maiar, but not neccissarily of the same level of order. And in a later letter he said they were lesser. So that makes Olorin and the other Wizards "low-ranking Maiar".

There is no passage where Tolkien says or implies that Olorin is a low-ranking Maia. I believe you're thinking of the passage where Tolkien says the Istari were of the same kind as the Valar but of lesser power than they. He even states that Gandalf is of the same order as the Valar on more than one occasion (such as in Letter 246).

Tolkien never compared the Istari to other Maiar, except with respect to Sauron. He did express doubt about whether Gandalf could defeat Sauron, even with the Ring. But Sauron was one of the most powerful Maiar of all.

Nonetheless, there were only two orders among the Ainur who entered the Halls of Ea: the Valar and Maiar, and a few of the Valar were held as kings and queens but they were still only Valar.

[Michael Martinez]

Spock1, there was another Elven port, near what is now Dol Amroth. But it was last used 500 years prior to LotR, though. The Grey Havens was the main port that the Noldor used to leave ME. Since most of the Noldor lived at Rivendell through the Third Age, it was the closest havens to them. Belfalas was closest to the Elves of Lorien, although Galadriel and her people left through Mithlond as it had the capabilities to build ships for that journey. Everyone at Belfalas anymore were Men(under Imrahil, at the time).

The port of Edhellond was abandoned by the Elves more than 1000 years before the War of the Ring. And it's not stated anywhere that most of the Noldor lived with Elrond. "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" says that Imladris because the chief dwelling of the High Elves in Eriador in the Third Age.

And Edhellond was not a part of Belfalas. The Elf-haven was situated just to the north of Belfalas. Nandori Elves had once wandered throughout the lands near the Mouths of Anduin, and Belfalas seems to be one of the areas where they enjoyed visiting. But it was not an Elven land after the founding of Gondor.

[Michael Martinez]

Wasn't Lond Daer a Numenorean port? Founded by Aldarion somewhere in SA 800 (or something like that)? I think GAR is referring to the legend of Nimrodel and Amroth. There was an Elven port on the Bay of Belfalas (Lond Daer was part way up the Greyflood) at one time, because that was where Amroth's ship left from. When Nimrodel was lost, one of her "maidens" ended up marrying Imrahil's ancestor.

Lond Daer Ened was the later name of the port of Vinyalonde, which Aldarion built near the mouth of the Gwathlo in southern Eriador. It wasn't called Lond Daer Ened until sometime after the founding of Pelargir in SA 2350. The name "Lond Daer Ened" meant "Great Middle Haven", with respect to the havens of Mithlond and Pelargir.

The Elven port in the south, Edhellond, was NOT on the Bay of Belfalas. It was located near the confluence of the Morthond and Ringlo rivers, on the north side of the river beyond Belfalas. There may have been an Elf haven which was separate from Edhellond, something like ancient Athens' haven. There is one tantalizing passage which suggest that the Elven ships were drawn up below the promontory of Dol Amroth, where the Princes of Belfalas made their residence.

[Inoldonil]

Michael, I realise the Ainur only consisted of Maiar and Valar. As I said, Tolkien said the Istari were Maiar, thought not neccissarily of the same high order (later saying they were lesser, meaning they were Maiar but "low-ranking" as I called them). Since Olorin is an Istar that makes him a low-ranking Maia. Olorin was a person of Manwe and Varda, wisest of all the Maiar, most dangerous of the peoples of Middle-earth in The War of Ring (bar Sauron), and councilor (sp?) to Irmo in his youth, but a Maia nonetheless, and Tolkien said the Istari were Maiar, but not as powerful. So wouldn't that make all the Wizards "low-ranking Maiar"? Maybe it's a poor choice of words.

I just checked, and I think perhaps I read "Maiar" for "Valar". That is, in one letter Tolkien said the Istari were Maiar, but not on the same level, and in a later letter he said they were lesser than the Valar (not Maiar as I thought), naturally, since they were Maiar. So maybe they're high-ranking Maiar.

[Michael Martinez]

There really were no ranks among the Maiar. At least, not any that Tolkien mentioned. Saruman may have been the most powerful of the Istari. That's about as close as you can get to any sort of "order" among them.

Technially, there probably was some sort of social hierarchy. The Valar most likely appointed lieutenants to oversee specific matters, and other Maiar probably answered to these lieutenants. Eonwe, at the very least, was a field commander for Manwe. But I don't believe there is any basis to suggest that some Maiar were collectively "lesser" than others as a matter of nature. They were all Ainur, and the Valar were Valar because they were the first to enter the Halls of Ea. The Maiar came to help them later.

[Inoldonil]

I meant power-wise. Like your suggestion that the Barrow-whites (assuming they're Maiar, but I think they are Men as Merry said,--well he said "men of Carn Dum", but that's another story) would be be lesser than the Balrogs. I.e., not as powerful. Perhaps you didn't say "lesser", but I equate the two.

[Michael Martinez]

You are making this unnecessarily complex. There was no sub-group of Maiar of lesser power than others to whom the Istari could have belonged let alone did belong. The Istari were not in any way "lesser" Maiar.

And, for what it's worth, the Men of Carn Dum were just that: men. The Barrow-wights didn't show up until more than 200 years later, after the Great Plague had destroyed all but a handful of Cardolan's population.

[Spock1]

seems a few duplicate postings here taking up a lot of room.....oh well, more ships in port I suppose.
:)

[Inoldonil]

Regarding Barrow-wights, they aren't just Barrow-wights. They used to be something else before they were wights (unless they're Maiar). You have suggested they were either Maiar or Elvish wraiths because of the kind of power they seem to possess. I hold however that they are Mannish wraiths, infact wraiths of the Men of Carn Dum (because Merry called them 'men of Carn Dum'.). That's what I meant.

I don't think you grasp what I was trying to say about Maiar yet. I just decided the Istari were probobly "higher" Maiar more likely than "lower" (obviously you missed that part). The only sub-group in the Maiar I would be proposing is already fact, the Istari. But power would vary from one Maia to the next. Some are lesser than others. Just as one Rohir might be more skilled in battle than the next, one Maia is more powerful than the other.

The Istari _would_ be the sub-group that is "lower" or "higher", so you wouldn't need a lesser group of Maiar for them (the Wizards) to belong to. Nothing complex about it, the Istari are Maiar, but not on the same order or level. So they must be on a higher level than the rest, or the lower. I say they're higher.

[Michael Martinez]

Regarding Barrow-wights, they aren't just Barrow-wights. They used to be something else before they were wights (unless they're Maiar). You have suggested they were either Maiar or Elvish wraiths because of the kind of power they seem to possess. I hold however that they are Mannish wraiths, infact wraiths of the Men of Carn Dum (because Merry called them 'men of Carn Dum'.). That's what I meant.

You're mistaken. Merry did not refer to the wraiths as men of Carn Dum.

And there remains no textual evidence to support your thesis that the Istari represented a sub-group of Maiar who were distinctively separate from other Maiar in terms of power.

[Inoldonil]

For the Istari to be Maiar, they must be a sub-group. The Istari are Maiar, but since "Istari" doesn't refer to the entire Race of the Maiar, it refers to a sub-group. It's logic Michael, it's only obvious the Istari are a kind of Maiar. The quote to them being Maiar but not neccisarily on the same level or order is in the Letters, you can check it yourself.

Fog On The Barrow-Downs, page 189 (in the millenium edition):

'What in the name of wonder?' began Merry, feeling the golden circlet that had slipped over one eye. Then he stopped, and a shadow came over his face, and he closed his eyes. 'Of course, I remember!' he said. 'The men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!' He clutched at his breast. 'No! No!' he said, opening his eyes. 'What am I saying? I have been dreaming. Where did you get to, Frodo?'

[Michael Martinez]

For the Istari to be Maiar, they must be a sub-group. The Istari are Maiar, but since "Istari" doesn't refer to the entire Race of the Maiar, it refers to a sub-group. It's logic Michael, it's only obvious the Istari are a kind of Maiar. The quote to them being Maiar but not neccisarily on the same level or order is in the Letters, you can check it yourself.

You're assuming that the Istari as a group are either more powerful or less powerful than other Maiar, and there is no basis for making such an assumption. The Maiar, when Tolkien discusses them, are not divided into "those who are Istari and those who are not".

Fog On The Barrow-Downs, page 189 (in the millenium edition):

'What in the name of wonder?' began Merry, feeling the golden circlet that had slipped over one eye. Then he stopped, and a shadow came over his face, and he closed his eyes. 'Of course, I remember!' he said. 'The men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!' He clutched at his breast. 'No! No!' he said, opening his eyes. 'What am I saying? I have been dreaming. Where did you get to, Frodo?'

I'm well aware of the passage. Merry is not referring to the Barrow-wights. He is recalling a memory from the last prince of Cardolan, who was slain in Tyrn Gorthad in the war of 1409.

[Inoldonil]

Where does it say that about the last prince? Merry just awoke from a terrible dream in the clutches of a Barrow-wight. I find it peculiar it would have nothing do with the Wights, what was the battle of 1409? Angmar must have been involved for him to say 'men of Carn Dum', so it does not dissaprove my theory. Wouldn't it make sence for the Wights to be the wraiths of the Men of Carn Dum, since Merry awoke from a nightmare in one the Wight's Barrow--a nightmare about the Men of Carn Dum?

You don't have to assume the Istari are more or less powerful for them to be a sub-group. They're a kind of a Maiar, that's a sub-group.

[Spock1]

gads! it's deja vu all over again.

[Michael Martinez]

Where does it say that about the last prince? Merry just awoke from a terrible dream in the clutches of a Barrow-wight. I find it peculiar it would have nothing do with the Wights, what was the battle of 1409? Angmar must have been involved for him to say 'men of Carn Dum', so it does not dissaprove my theory. Wouldn't it make sence for the Wights to be the wraiths of the Men of Carn Dum, since Merry awoke from a nightmare in one the Wight's Barrow--a nightmare about the Men of Carn Dum?

As I mentioned previously, there were no barrow-wights in 1409. They didn't infest Tyrn Gorthad until after the Great Plague.

In 1409 an army came out of Angmar and overran Rhudaur and Cardolan. The Dunedain of Cardolan fell back to Tyrn Gorthad and the Old Forst. The last prince of Cardolan (not a descendant of the House of Isildur) died in Tyrn Gorthad.

Merry's dream is the memory of how the Dunedain were overwhelmed in that final battle. The Appendix says that some people believed the barrow in which the Hobbits were imprisoned was that of the last prince. There is no mention of any wights participating in the war of 1409.

You don't have to assume the Istari are more or less powerful for them to be a sub-group. They're a kind of a Maiar, that's a sub-group.

Which has nothing to do with your original assertion that they were a lesser order of Maiar. They were, technically, the only "order" to come out of the Maiar, and they were probably far fewer in number than the rest of the Maiar (but "fewer" doesn't mean the same thing as "less" or "lesser" although most people tend to use these words interchangeably).

[Inoldonil]

"As I mentioned previously, there were no barrow-wights in 1409. They didn't infest Tyrn Gorthad until after the Great Plague.

In 1409 an army came out of Angmar and overran Rhudaur and Cardolan. The Dunedain of Cardolan fell back to Tyrn Gorthad and the Old Forst. The last prince of Cardolan (not a descendant of the House of Isildur) died in Tyrn Gorthad.

Merry's dream is the memory of how the Dunedain were overwhelmed in that final battle. The Appendix says that some people believed the barrow in which the Hobbits were imprisoned was that of the last prince. There is no mention of any wights participating in the war of 1409."

You seemed to have still proved my point somewhat. It wouldn't matter if the Barrow-wights weren't around in that battle, as by my theory the Barrow-wights are wraiths, and were once alive. If the Appendices says the Barrow in which the Hobbits were trapped may have been home to the last Prince of Cardolan, than the Barrow-wights are deffinitely Men, and it's still possible a portion of them were men of Carn Dum, but not Elves or Maiar.

"Which has nothing to do with your original assertion that they were a lesser order of Maiar. They were, technically, the only "order" to come out of the Maiar, and they were probably far fewer in number than the rest of the Maiar (but "fewer" doesn't mean the same thing as "less" or "lesser" although most people tend to use these words interchangeably)."

I was side trackted, but you must admit the Istari are a sub-group. My original assertion I took back.

[Master Caractacus]

Not having access to the HOME or LETTERS etc, I've been puzzled by a contention that I've seen on occassion that Barrow Wights are spirits of faded elves. I've not seen a direct quote that supports this assertion.

Why on Arda would such entities seek to haunt the graves of men long dead? Rather, wouldn't they be haunting elves, or forming a focus for some sort of orcish worship?

I think, especially given the nature of wights in Northern European mythology, that it is more consistant that the wraiths of men haunt the tombs of men.

Cold be hand and heart and bone,
and cold be sleep under stone:
never more to wake on stny bed,
never, till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead.
In the black wind the stars shall die,
and still on gold here let them lie,
till the dark lord lifts his hand
over dead sea and withered land.

Also, given the nature of the incantation of the Barrow-Wight, it seems to me that here is a spirit of some kind that was looking forward to some sort of Second Coming of Morgoth. This fits in with the notion that evil folk fell into the worship of Morgoth, which would have to take such a form. I would speculate that the Barrow-Wights were the lingering wraiths of evil men who had worshipped Sauron as a god and Morgoth as God, whose spirits were preserved after death (during the Plague?) in the tombs of their enemies, until defeated by Bombadil.

[Michael Martinez]

You seemed to have still proved my point somewhat. It wouldn't matter if the Barrow-wights weren't around in that battle, as by my theory the Barrow-wights are wraiths, and were once alive. If the Appendices says the Barrow in which the Hobbits were trapped may have been home to the last Prince of Cardolan, than the Barrow-wights are deffinitely Men, and it's still possible a portion of them were men of Carn Dum, but not Elves or Maiar.

No, the Barrow-wights are NOT definitely Men. They aren't definitely anything. You're making connections which just don't work.

The Lord of the Nazgul sent wights to inhabit the barrows after the Great Plague. The book doesn't say or imply they were the spirits of Men, Elves, or Maiar. It's anyone's guess what they were.

But given that Legolas didn't think the spirits of Men were very powerful, and given the fact that Tolkien wrote that Elven spirits were very powerful, well able to possess the bodies of living Men who tried to deal with them, I tend to believe the wights were probably Elvish spirits. Eomer's crack about "Elvish wights" seems to confirm that Men, at least, associated wights with the Elves. That in itself means nothing, but it's one more piece of the puzzle.

Sauron doesn't seem to have been able to keep the wraiths of Men in Middle-earth without resorting to Rings of Power, which were in short supply. The wraiths of Elves, however, would be another matter, especially where those wraiths had refused to go to the Halls of Mandos.

And, if you're going to insist on getting some sort of agreement from me then, yes, I have to admit that the Istari do form a sub-group of Maiar. In that respect, at least, I was incorrect.

[Michael Martinez]

Not having access to the HOME or LETTERS etc, I've been puzzled by a contention that I've seen on occassion that Barrow Wights are spirits of faded elves. I've not seen a direct quote that supports this assertion.

Why on Arda would such entities seek to haunt the graves of men long dead? Rather, wouldn't they be haunting elves, or forming a focus for some sort of orcish worship?

I think, especially given the nature of wights in Northern European mythology, that it is more consistant that the wraiths of men haunt the tombs of men.


There is no passage I know of which explains what the wights are, although in early versions of the book they were Elven spirits, closely associated with the Nazgul.

But Tolkien's discussions concerning the fates of Elven spirits are provided in Morgoth's Ring. Among other factors he considered was the prospect that if, during Morgoth's reign in Angband, an Elf refused the summons of Namo to the Halls of Mandos, the spirit was counter-summoned by Morgoth and could not refuse. Such spirits were forced into Morgoth's service, but Tolkien didn't say what that service consisted of.

Another example of Elven spirits staying around was that of spirits which simply didn't want to leave Middle-earth. They would stay near their former lands as "haunts". Men might try to communicate with them but it was deemed perilous for Men to do this.

And as far as Northern mythologies go, they were only one of several sources Tolkien drew upon for inspiration. It is a mistake to assume that anything which has a parallel in Norse, Germanic, or Celtic mythology must have been taken from those sources.

But the Barrow-wight which captured the Hobbits was in the service of Sauron, who (according to Tolkien) claimed to be Morgoth returned at the end of the Third Age. The wight might have thought it was serving Morgoth, but if so, that is just making a stronger case for it being an Elven spirit.

[Inoldonil]

"No, the Barrow-wights are NOT definitely Men. They aren't definitely anything. You're making connections which just don't work.

The Lord of the Nazgul sent wights to inhabit the barrows after the Great Plague. The book doesn't say or imply they were the spirits of Men, Elves, or Maiar. It's anyone's guess what they were."

But you just finished telling me Tolkien said the Barrow-wight that captured the Hobbits may have been the last Prince of Cardolan, and after being rescued Merry awoke from a dream that atleast (or at the most perhaps, granted) involved the men of Carn Dum. The only evidence about the nature of their existance at all implies they may have been Men. That's not deffinite, you're right, but it's more likely than Elves or Maiar.

I don't think Men aren't very powerful because Legolas doesn't fear them. They sure know how to conquer enemies, I'll tell you that much (but seemingly they wouldn't have been able to had Aragorn led the Dead Men against an Elvish army.) But the Barrow-wights may be an exception. They may be far more powerful than other wraiths, as the result of one thing or another (we would have no way of knowing what things). I think Merry's dream and Tolkien's words in the Appendices are better pieces to the puzzle. There is the problem of why the Barrow-wights would be around. The Dead Men remained because of an oath, perhaps some similar bond was made between the Witch King and whomever to bring about the Barrow-wights eventually.

Try as I might, I can't find that refference in which I was certain Tolkien said something along the lines of 'The Istari are Maiar, although not neccisarily on the same level of order'. What am I thinking of?! I know it was in the Letters. Oh well. Maybe it's not.

"But the Barrow-wight which captured the Hobbits was in the service of Sauron, who (according to Tolkien) claimed to be Morgoth returned at the end of the Third Age. The wight might have thought it was serving Morgoth, but if so, that is just making a stronger case for it being an Elven spirit. "

Wasn't the last prince of Cardolan a Dunedan? Didn't they preserve knowledge about the Valar? And aren't we to assume the Herumor of the Fourth Age was a Man? He led a Morgothian cult. Maybe it doesn't apply since that was some 200 years after the War of the Ring.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

[Master Caractacus]

Well, I do see now, especially with regard to Eomer's "elvish wights" comment, that Elvish Wights can not be ruled out!

If an Elf had forsaken the Halls of Mandos, turning to the Darkness, but still bound to Middle-earth, then such spirits might well prove to be under the power of whoever might be exercising Morgoth's will on Middle-earth.

Add to this, Sauron's title of Necromancer, and we may have something else to work with. The Witch King, during his days of power, would certainly have access to such spirits in the service of Morgoth.

I understand better now the Elvish Wight concept. It still seems possible to me that some Numenorean spirits might be in the mix. That Legolas the Elf did not fear such spirits is not, however, conclusive that the Barrow-Wight was elvish.

This is one of the unanswerables.

As for the last Prince, if the Barrow Wight had been tasked to instill fear in this remnant of the Dunedain during their last battle, it might well have had access to the thoughts of the dying, finding something to savor perhaps.

It is thought in Christian theology that such stories as are told by those who believe in reincarnation, are actually the stolen memories of the dead, conveyed to the living in demonic trickery. (I know, demons are not ghosts!)

Such a spirit might well dwell in gloating malice over such thoughts, cherishing them until Morgoth raised his hand, conveying them to Merry, enjoying his terror and despair at reliving them...

Just for kicks, until he died in his nightmares of cold, starvation, or thirst. (Or was he to be actually slain?)