Some questions about Gollum

[SilvaRanger]

In 2nd chapter of LoTR Gandalf says that "he put the fear of fire on Gollum" to get him to talk, what does Gandalf mean? Did he threaten to burn Gollum, or is it something to do with Gandalf uncloaking himself and showing Gollum his true form?
Wasn't Gollum already quite evil even before he got the ring? After all he killed poor Deagol before the ring was actually in his possession, and unlike Bilbo and Frodo, he used the ring for evil, malicious purposes. So if Gollum is so evil, how can Gandalf be so compassionate in his attitude to him?
Also I never got that bit about Gollum's family kicking him and him biting thier toes! Not a very nice family to be kicking him like that and if you were being kicked you'd hardly be biting someones toes would you, or did Gollum have a thing about feet?;)

[dunedain lady]

I think that the Ring started to work its evil on Smeagol as soon as he saw it. He was not evil to begin with, just much weaker than Bilbo or Frodo. Gandalf, Bilbo, and the other Ringbearers have pity for Gollum because they know what he is going through. It is really the Ring doing the evil deeds, not the little bit of Smeagol that still remains. Sauron has taken over his mind, so that he is incapable of thinking any moral or happy thought.

[Eowyn99]

In 2nd chapter of LoTR Gandalf says that "he put the fear of fire on Gollum" to get him to talk, what does Gandalf mean? Did he threaten to burn Gollum, or is it something to do with Gandalf uncloaking himself and showing Gollum his true form?

i think i'd talk if Gandalf was about to flash me :p

[Elanor]

oh, you have a nice mind, Eowyn. :p

I always imagined Gandalf giving Gollum a little singeing with his staff. Gollum didn't like light and had a pretty dramatic reaction to the elvish ropes, so he would probably give in when Gandalf threatened to burn him.

[Lief Erikson]

I think that Gandalf threatened to burn him and it was through Gollum's fear that he told the information.

I think that Smeagol was slightly bad all along, but it was the Ring that turned him into the evil monster he became.

[SilvaRanger]

:lol: Eowyn, now I have visions of Gandalf flashing everyone.

[Inoldonil]

Gandalf would not threaten to unveil himself. Gollum wouldn't understand such a threat (nor did Bilbo really when Gandalf theatened him about seeing himself uncloaked). Gandalf The Grey wasn't allowed to reveal his full power, so he wouldn't be able to demonstrate this infront of Gollum. But what kind of threat would that be anyway? To hurt his eyes and put him in awe? Nay, he probobly threatened to burn him. In any event it would not have been his true form. The Ainur have no true form, but the Istari (Wizards) that came to Middle-earth took the forms of incarnate old men that were suseptable to the pains and cares of the world. So if you would have to pin a "true form" on Gandalf, it would be his own as the inhabitants of Middle-earth saw him. The Ainur of Aman took form according to their personality (i.e., Morgoth's first form was a mountain cloaked with ice, with eyes of fire and crowned with smoke and lightning).

The Tolkien Letters tells us that Smeagol indeed was not very nice, even before the Ring corrupted him (but that is not evident by his trying to kill Deagol. Even seeing the ring or thinking about it can corrupt, you don't have to touch it. Think of Boromir and Denethor). They were infact fishing because Smeagol (in accordance to the culture of Hobbits) needed to get a present (inexpensive as a rule) to the Head of his household (because it was his own birthday). In that culture by the Anduil Vales the Head of Smeagol's household was a matriarch, and either his grandmother or aunt (I forget which). A thoughtless gift would indeed have been a fish, since she probobly got that everyday anyway. But it was typical of Smeagol to force Deagol to do the fishing. Deagol himself was a nasty person as well.

When Smeagol got the Ring (by murdering Deagol and burying him where noone would find him), he went back to his village and found that he was invisible. He used it for evil purposes, but whenever people actually saw him,he had become a groping, crouching creature (so would probobly had Bilbo had he had the black heart of Smeag), so they kicked him, and naturally he bit their feet.

I won't go into the whole letter, but that should answer your questions (I think).

[Finduilas]

A lot of this is told in one of the later volumes of HoME, probably Peoples of Middle-Earth.

[dunedain lady]

Hey...that reminds me of something--Gollum calls the Ring his "birthday-present." But hobbits don't recieve presents on their own birthdays! What's up with that?

[Inoldonil]

They do actually recieve presents on their birthdays, the Lord of the Rings just doesn't talk about it. However, only family members in a 12-mile radius (according to the birthday-hobbit's reckoning) are obligated to give presents, and always before the birthday itself, the morning of it at the latest. Others can give presents if they wish, but only 12-mile relatives are obligated to. Tolkien knew alot more about Hobbits than he put in that epic, but he knew despite the great interest in hobbitry, alot of people just didn't want to know the every detail of every-day life in The Shire.

[Finduilas]

But thanks to HoME, those of us that do want to know can find out at least some of it now.

[SilvaRanger]

Gollum described ring as his birthday present, because the ring "came" to him on his birthday, this is explained in one of early chapters of LoTR. It was Gollums way of alleiviating his guilt over Deagols murder, Gandalf explains all this, when he's talking to Frodo.
Will someone please tell me what this HoME is that everyone keeps mentioning, maybe I'm missing something really obvious, but I really really don't get this??

[Eruve]

HoME stands for History of Middle-earth, which is a twelve-volume publication of papers and drafts that JRRT left after he died. Most of the volumes contain early drafts of the Silmarillion, early versions of the legends, and various writings on Middle-earth. There are also four volumes containing the early drafts and rejected passages from LOTR. For a more detailed descrpition of what's in HoME see <a href=http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.html>this site</a>.

[Finduilas]

The titles are:
Book of Lost Tales 1
Book of Lost Tales 2
Lays of Beleriand
Shaping of Middle-Earth
Lost Road (This one is mostly Numenor related)
Return of the Shadow (LOTR drafts)
Treason of Isengard (LOTR drafts)
War of the Ring (LOTR drafts)
Sauron Defeated (LOTR and Numenor related)
Morgoth's Ring
War of the Jewels
Peoples of Middle-Earth

[SilvaRanger]

Thanks for all the info:) I know books you mean, I think.

[Michael Martinez]

The custom of GIVING presents on one's birthday was peculiar to the Shire Hobbits, as Tolkien pointed out in one of his letters. So there is no need to be surprised at the fact that Deagol gave Smeagol a birthday present, or that Smeagol claimed the Ring as a birthday present. They were not Shire Hobbits.

[dunedain lady]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up!

[Tobold Hornblower]

Poor Smeagol! Both genetically and environmentally challenged... ;)

Agreed that Gandalf could not reveal himself. He specify ´fire´ but there are many fires to fear. Perhaps he somehow evoked fear from encounter with Sauron?