The Gift of Death

[FrodoFriend]

Supposing you could choose, would you rather have the immortality of the Elves, or the "gift" of Death bestowed on Men?
Personally, I think the Numenoreans got the best deal - long lived, but also get to die and find out what lies outside Middle Earth. Iluvatar did, after all, mean it as a gift.

[ragamuffin92]

What a question!!!
Hmmmm...I would have to agree with you, FrodoFriend. I would bet that sorrow would have always been a part of life in the Blessed Realm (not continually, tho), because that seemed to be the case after Melkor and Ungolliant befouled the place.
The resting place of humans was most likely Heaven-ish, since it was a gift from Eru. I wonder why the professor wrote almost nothing about it.

[afro-elf]

That is a tad difficult to answer because Tolkien was a Christian and thus, believed in a hereafter.

For someone whose coporeal sensibilities are in the forefront it is question of;


a) do i answer as if tolkien's world is true with all of his beliefs

b) do i answer it with the heart of this world

I would probably choose the first born in both cases.

[afro-elf]

Here is another link with a similar question.


http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2069

[Tar-Elendil]

I would choose the race of Men. the thought of living upon Eã for so long is too bittersweet, even if it was in valinor.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by ragamuffin92
What a question!!!
Hmmmm...I would have to agree with you, FrodoFriend. I would bet that sorrow would have always been a part of life in the Blessed Realm (not continually, tho), because that seemed to be the case after Melkor and Ungolliant befouled the place.
The resting place of humans was most likely Heaven-ish, since it was a gift from Eru. I wonder why the professor wrote almost nothing about it. Actually, Tolkien elaborates on this extensively in the "Athrabeth".

[Radagast The Brown]

I think I'll choose the elves because they are smarter, stronger and they aren't dying without reason.

[sun-star]

I think I would choose immortality - it might be bittersweet but that's still sweet. I could learn as much as I could about Middle Earth, then sail to the West. I'd like that. :)

[Wayfarer]

Remember, death was part of the package that men got to choose and expand their life beyond the music. Elves didn't. So, would you rather have a short, exciting life with mostly full control, or a long life consigned to elvishness?

I don't know... I have a lot in common with the sadness and poignancy of the elves... but I like my choice too...

[markedel]

I'd take mortality, there's a reason why there aren't immortal beings in this world today-immortality leads to a frozen existence.

[Nienna]

I can't help prefering the immortal existance but I'm not sure I would like those long periods of staying in one place. I think the second born have a faster, more exciting existance.

[Tar-Elendil]

I think I'll choose the elves because they are smarter, stronger and they aren't dying without reason.
bah..stronger? nay

[Elf Girl]

I don't know. I think I'd choose mortality, because I don't think I could live for thousands of years knowing I could only do what Eru intended for the average Elf.

[Renille]

It really depends on how my life was. If it was filled with dissapointments and bad luck, I would prefer mortality. No, I take that back. I prefer mortality. It's better knowing you can get to a better place rather than staying on a hard earth forever.

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by Tar-Elendil
bah..stronger? nay
The elves were stronger, for my opinion.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Not even my opinion, but fact. The Elves of the First Age were much more enduring and hardier than Men of that era, or Elves of the Third Age.

[Tar-Elendil]

bah..ok...in the first age..but third age, i just cant believe..

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil
bah..ok...in the first age..but third age, i just cant believe.. The Elves of the First Age were more enduring and hardier than Elves of the Third Age. For that very reason. The Elves of the First Age were young and the Noldor had just come from the Blessed Realm. The Elves of the Third Age were at a point especially near the end where the dominion of Men was at hand, and had and were diminishing greatly in power.

[Radagast The Brown]

bah..ok...in the first age..but third age, i just cant believe..I think that they were stonger on the Third age too. For example Elrond or Galadriel. they were stronger in they're powers then Aragorn.

[Tar-Elendil]

yea but galadriel was born in valinor before the creating of the silmarils..no surprise she had something over men and all elves as well..and anyways thats just two elves...when you can think of more, besides celeborn, tell me;)

[Radagast The Brown]

ahhh.... Glorfindel!!! Legolas (I think).

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil

bah..stronger? nay

you forget the calaquendi

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil
yea but galadriel was born in valinor before the creating of the silmarils..no surprise she had something over men and all elves as well..and anyways thats just two elves...when you can think of more, besides celeborn, tell me;)

elrond was not born in valinor though you may argue he was 1/2 elven


glorfindel was powerful than most elves there is some about his rebirth that gives him great power see the thread:
why did glorfindel come back to life


The problem with your question is that we do not really encounter too many Noldor in LOTR.

the only NAMED noldor are galadriel, glorfindel and gildor

other named elves COULD have been noldor but the above are definately noldor

also it depends on what type of man i'm quite sure legolas could whoop the men in bree.

from the man himself

I wonder if the following quote might throw some light on the elf/man strength comparison in general and Legolas' abilities in particular
"there was nothing filmy or transparent about the heroic or majestic Eldar of the Third Age of Middle-earth. Long afterwards, my father (Cristopher Tolkien's referring to Ronald - E.G.) would write, in a wrathful comment on a "pretty" or "ladylike" pictorial rendering of Legolas:
He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock and through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship."
The Book of Lost Tales 2, "The History of Eriol or Aelfwine"

[Rána Eressëa]

I definitely would have chosen the Gift of Men. The Elves and Valar are confined to the world - Men are allowed to see what lies beyond it.

[afro-elf]

no one ever thinks that the gift of death could be total cessation

no pain no sorrow no nothing


to those who suffer this could be a gift

[Sister Golden Hair]

According to the Athrabeth in Morgoth's Ring, the gift from Iluvatar to man was death. However, somehow the gift became tainted by Morgoth, and was no longer a pleasent thing to recieve. This was stated by Andreth to Finrod, but she refused to elaborate further.

[Tar-Elendil]

yea, i said galadriel was born in valinor

[Radagast The Brown]

According to the Athrabeth in Morgoth's Ring, the gift from Iluvatar to man was death. However, somehow the gift became tainted by Morgoth, and was no longer a pleasent thing to recieve. This was stated by Andreth to Finrod, but she refused to elaborate further.
But according to some page in the Sil, Illuvatar knew the men won't be just good and it will work to the evil side too, so he gave them the gift of death for they (the men) won't be confine to the world and work to Morgoth to the end of the world.

[Sister Golden Hair]

The Gift of Man was predetemined. This was supposedly something that Illuvatar had decided upon before he created either the "Firstborn", or the "Secondborn" Somewhere, some how, in the early history of Man, according to the "Athrabeth" Men did something wrong that possibly tainted that gift.

[Agburanar]

It's a very hard question. Best to be mortal and be released from care, to see the outside world, than to endure forever the suffering the loss of others causes.

[Garina]

I don't know. I wouldn't want immortality if the people I loved were mortal, because that would suck.

I think I would actually choose mortality, although I think my judgement is biased by my attatchment to the Queen song - "Who wants to live forever?" Ooh! hang on, have to go mangle.

[Agburanar]

That is undoubtably the greatest song in the history of the universe ever.

[Tar-Elendil]

Originally posted by Agburanar
That is undoubtably the greatest song in the history of the universe ever.
it is clear to me that youve never heard system of a down!:)

[Agburanar]

You are incorrect. I suggest new glasses.:D

[Reumandar]

But when the Elves are killed in battle (or something like that) were do they go is it not the same place as man, when they die
(I'm very new here so if I sound stupid sorry):rolleyes:

[Radagast The Brown]

You doesn't sound stupid... don't worry. Welcome!:)

Yeah. The elves go in their death to Mandos. The man go (I think) out of this land (I think it called Ea). I'm not sure.

[Sister Golden Hair]

From the Silmarillion:

What may bafall their spirits after death, the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the Halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halss beside the Outer Sea.

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil
yea, i said galadriel was born in valinor



Yes ... aware of that, the post is just explaining the dearth of named noldor

[Ñólendil]

Yeah. The elves go in their death to Mandos. The man go (I think) out of this land (I think it called Ea). I'm not sure.

The idea is that they go outside the "Circles of the World" which refer in some way to Eä, the Universe.

[Radagast The Brown]

Oh. OK. Understood now. :D

[Reumandar]

what was Beren ?:confused:

[Ñólendil]

He was a Man, a human-being, if that's what you're asking.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Beren was a Man of the Edain that fell in love with one of the greatest Elves to ever live. Luthien.

[Wayfarer]

Not just a man, he was the most fortunate man ever to walk on the face of the earth...

[afro-elf]

Luthein was 1/2 calaquendi and 1/2 maia

[Radagast The Brown]

He was the son of Barahir. His son was Dior(spell mistake, sorry):1/4 Maia, 1/4 elf and 1/2 human.

[Reumandar]

But didn't Beren Go to Mandos when He died the first time?:confused:
dosen't it say something like
"And then TÃ*nuveil (might be spelt wrong) went to (not exactly what the book said) the hall's of Mandos to plea for Beren..."
(In the book of lost tales 2)

But of course I might be wrong
I am very confused:(:confused:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Reumandar
But didn't Beren Go to Mandos when He died the first time?:confused:
dosen't it say something like
"And then TÃ*nuveil (might be spelt wrong) went to (not exactly what the book said) the hall's of Mandos to plea for Beren..."
(In the book of lost tales 2)

But of course I might be wrong
I am very confused:(:confused: Beren was the only Man to ever return from the dead. Luthien died the next year, and when she went to the Halls of Mandos, she was so grieved and she sang to Mandos and he was so moved by her, that he gave her the choice of either returning to Valinor where she could live to the end of the world without the burdens of her grief that she knew in life. But here, Beren could not come. Or, she could return to Middle-earth with Beren and live again, but she would be subject to the grief of the world and become mortal and subject to a second death. The second was her choice.

As for Beren going to Mandos, I think that the Elves speculated that Men also go to Mandos, but their place of awaiting is not that of the Elves.

[Tar-Elendil]

just to let you know..lost tales two is extremely different in some spots. Like Beren is an elf. Huan fought tevildo(sp?).
read over "Of Beren and Lúthien" in The Silmarillion a couple more times and youll get..hmm whats the word..unconfused?:) :p

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil
just to let you know..lost tales two is extremely different in some spots. Like Beren is an elf. Huan fought tevildo(sp?).
read over "Of Beren and Lúthien" in The Silmarillion a couple more times and youll get..hmm whats the word..unconfused?:) :p The BoLTs is the old mythology.

[Ñólendil]

Not just a man, he was the most fortunate man ever to walk on the face of the earth...

Do you really think so? Have you forgotten the horrible losses of the Dagor Bragollach, or the deaths of his outlaw comrades, including his cousins and father (who were murded by Sauron's folk before being partway gobbled up by crows). And what about all the battles he had to go through afterwards in Dorthonion, and what about when the army was raised against him and he had to go through Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death? What about his torment in the pits of Tol-in-Gaurhoth, watching his friends eaten alive one by one by Werewolves, before watching his best friend die fighting one with his bear hands, so that he himself would not meet the same fate? And is anyone who meets Morgoth Bauglir at any time very lucky? I dunno about you, but I wouldn't want to take a walk through Hell. And then he had his guts ripped out by the Red Maw. Sure everything turned out okay for him in the end and there were lots of good parts, but I wouldn't call him lucky.

As a matter of fact, the only lucky people are the people not mentioned in the histories. That one guy that lives his quiet boring life as a farmer, gets married and has lots of unimportant babies before dying of old age, that guy was lucky.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

So would you say, Nolendil, that the 'gift of death' is lucky, then, and that you would choose that?

I have often thought about this question, and I do believe that death could indeed be considered a gift, but it's hard. There comes a point, I'm sure, when the world just gets too...old. And that's the point when one would be glad of that gift (I guess there is never anything about elves taking their own lives? No, wouldn't make any sense. . .) But I think over all I would choose not to have the 'gift of death.'

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
So would you say, Nolendil, that the 'gift of death' is lucky, then, and that you would choose that?

I have often thought about this question, and I do believe that death could indeed be considered a gift, but it's hard. There comes a point, I'm sure, when the world just gets too...old. And that's the point when one would be glad of that gift (I guess there is never anything about elves taking their own lives? No, wouldn't make any sense. . .) But I think over all I would choose not to have the 'gift of death.' Well, there were Elves that took their own lives. Maedhros for instance, cast himself into the chasm with the Silmaril. Other Elves succumbed to death from grief, such as Arwen, even Luthien. As I said in an earlier post, death was intended to be a gift from Iluvatar, but somewhere along the line, it became tainted by Men and was no longer a desireable thing.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Thanks for pointing that out--I haven't gotten very far in the Silmarillion yet, I am afraid :o
And I guess I didn't think about the choice to die of grief, like Arwen and Luthien.

It is understandable that death would become tainted when people start going around killing each other, but I suppose that started before men, right?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
Thanks for pointing that out--I haven't gotten very far in the Silmarillion yet, I am afraid :o
And I guess I didn't think about the choice to die of grief, like Arwen and Luthien.

It is understandable that death would become tainted when people start going around killing each other, but I suppose that started before men, right? Yes, that was happening among the Elves, but death was never their fate. Apparently according to Morgoth's Ring Men somehow turned their backs on the Valar and Iluvatar and sided with Morgoth, which tainted the Gift of death.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

That makes sense then. . .maybe I should go read the Sil. for myself, sooner, rather than learning all this here.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
That makes sense then. . .maybe I should go read the Sil. for myself, sooner, rather than learning all this here. Good idea. Here can be a spoiler.

[Tar-Elendil]

The BoLTs is the old mythology.
i know..thats why i said to read back over the beren and luthien part of the sil..there are drastic changes between the two

[Ñólendil]

So would you say, Nolendil, that the 'gift of death' is lucky, then, and that you would choose that?

No, I would not put it so. The man that dies after long torment and agony does not change the nature of death, in my opinion. It is not to me relative. In Tolkien's mythology I believe I must say that death is a gift because it was given by the One, who is good. Eru loves His children and would not give them something evil. But, of course, many Men thought death was tgiven to them by Morgoth. I think, because I have read up on it and that is the conclusion I have drawn, the fear of death and perhaps shorter life is due to Melkor/Morgoth, but death itself is natural (to Men).

I am putting it this way: imagine a world without evil. It is not easy to do, but vaguely, imagine a world where absolutely nothing is wrong. Now imagine you live in this utopian world, but that eventually, when it is time, say in 500 years, you die of old age, painlessly. Imagine lying down to rest and never getting up again. Then you go to an even better place, where your creator is. That's the vision untainted.

Now imagine a world with evil. It is not difficult, look around you and see the suffering. Or open the Lord of the Rings and read the suffering that is written there. It is not a utopia, there is evil and suffering. People don't live that long. And yet death, given by the One, and that better place, remain.

That's the philosophy (in my opinion) behind Tolkien's mythology (or legendarium as he called it). The world has been marred by Melkor, but it was not made by him and neither was death. Death belongs and no one would have any reason to fear it, were it not for Melkor.

That is not to say that death should be feared. Take me. I may fear being (say) mauled by a gigantic bear in the woods near his cave where his hungry cubs are, away from human civilization, but I'll be okay after they've ripped me up into little pieces and digested me. I'm just saying.

You know I think flies come from Morgoth. Just thought I'd share.

[Tar-Elendil]

As I said in an earlier post, death was intended to be a gift from Iluvatar, but somewhere along the line, it became tainted by Men and was no longer a desireable thing
"Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said he had come out of pity. 'Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed,' he said. "The world is full of marvellous riches which knowledge can unlock ye could have food more abundant and more delicious than the poor things that ye now eat. Ye should have dwellings in ease, in which ye could keep light and shut out the night. Ye could be clad even as I."
Then we looked and lo! he was clad in raiment that shone like silver and gold, and he had a crown on his head, and gems in his hair. 'If ye wish to be like me,' he said, 'I will teach you.' then we took him as teacher."
This mysterious character is Morgoth among Men. Morgoth gave them gifts and they soon became dependent on him. He made them build a him a house where they should worship him. Men had heard the thoughts of Eru and they spoke to morgoth telling them of the voice. He said it was the voice of the night and wanted to devour them.
"Then in fear we spoke as he commanded, saying: 'Thou art the Lord; Thee only one we will serve. The Voice we abjure and will not hearken to it again.'
'So be it!' he said. 'Now build me a house upon a high place, and call it the House of the Lord. Thither I will come when I will. there ye shall call on Me and make your petitions to Me!'
..
Ever after we went in great dread of the Dark; but he seldom appeared among us again in fair form, and he brought few gifts. If at great need we dared to go to the house and pray to him to help us, we heard his voice, and recieved his commands. But now he would always command us to do some deed, or to give him some gift, before he would listen to our prayer; and ever the deeds became worse, and the gifts harder to give up."
Men worshipped him out of fear.
"The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of night It spoke, saying : 'ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.' "

[Christiana]

What is Morogoths Ring?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Christiana
What is Morogoths Ring? Morgoth's Ring is volume 10 of the Histories of Middle-earth series. There are a total of 12 volumes in the series. Volume 10 (Morgoth's Ring) and volume 11 (War of the Jewels) are part 1 and 2 of the Later Quenta Silmarillion.

[Christiana]

thanks.whats the first volume?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Volumes 1 and 2 are the Book of Lost Tale parts 1 and 2. This is the old mythology.

[Christiana]

ok.

[Wayfarer]

I think flies come from Morgoth.

But morgoth can't create, can he?

[Ñólendil]

No O Insufferable One, but he can make and he can corrupt. As the Dragons and the Trolls find their origins, as themselves anyway, in Moriñgotho, so may the flies. They're just dreadful creatures.

[Wayfarer]

Gotcha.

So... what do you think flies were originally?

[Christiana]

butterflies?:D

[Ñólendil]

Perhaps they were simply good-natured, but after being tampered with by Moriñgotho they came to like stink, and enjoyed irritating people and sometimes biting them. Tolkien once said that Melkor was so engrossed with his own works that he was probably unaware of many things that were not actually his own. He said Melkor was better at dealing with a volcano than a flower. And, Tolkien added, if such things were forced upon his attention, he was filled with hate, jealousy and loathing, that such a thing could be. Perhaps flies were one of those things -- say that entered via the thought of Orome in the Music -- that were forced upon the Dark Lord's attention. In his wrathful madness he may have made a point of making them tiresome and disgusting.

Actually I was only half-serious when I mentioned it, but I think it's also possible.

In Of the Beginning of Days, this just came to me, flies are actually mentioned in conjunction with Melkor: Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew naught of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred. Green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slim, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood. Then the Valar knew indeed that Melkor was at work again, ...

[Lefty Scaevola]

Recall that the gift to men has two part. The other part is that men are free from the presdestination or fate of the music of the Aniur. It is slightly implied, but not clearly so, that that the two parts of the gift are necessarily tied together. They are further connected by the statement that men are free to seek their fate (after death) beyond the confines of Arda.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Recall that the gift to men has two part. The other part is that men are free from the presdestination or fate of the music of the Aniur. It is slightly implied, but not clearly so, that that the two parts of the gift are necessarily tied together. They are further connected by the statement that men are free to seek their fate (after death) beyond the confines of Arda. Read the Athrabeth. Then it is not so cut and dry. You'll walk away wondering what really was meant to be.

[Lefty Scaevola]

No doubt that part of being the children of Illuvatar was to be in doubt about the afterlife.

[Ælfwine]

I much prefer being a Man. I don't know if I could endure being bound to Arda as long as it excists. And maybe it reallt is a gift to shape ones own destiny and not be bound by the music, and after death to pass outside the circles of the world. Do not forget that Death was given as a gift. I think that it is very well explained in The Music of the Ainur as written in The Book of Lost Tales:
Thou Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Ilúvatar's self, nor can any alter the music in Ilúvatar's despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the endbut aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder: - for lo! through Melkohave terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the depths of the uttermost of the dark places, come into the design that I laid before you. Through him has pain and misery been made in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire and all putresence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent flame, cold without mercy, been borne, and death without hope.
Rather more telling that the version in The Published Silmarillion, if you ask me.