Dwarf Rings

[Butterburr]

Did Tolkien ever write about who received the rings for the Dwarfs and what happened to them?

[Wayfarer]

There were seven rings.

There were seven dwarf tribes.

The 'seven great dwarf hoards of old' were each said to be based on a ring.



It is likely that sauron gave one ring to the reigning lord of each tribe.

If there are seven rings, 'for dwarf lords in thier halls of stone' and there were seven dwarf lords, you do the math.

[Butterburr]

Yes, I know there were seven. I was just wondering if there was someone out there who knows if Tolkien had written anything else about the dwarf lords.

[Ñólendil]

I believe one of the Rings was first given to Durin III.

[FrodoFriend]

Well, Thror had the last remaining one before Sauron took it from him in Dol Guldur.

[Butterburr]

Thanks FrodoFriend and Inoldolnil. I just got home and looked through the appendix in ROTK. Thrain, Thorin's father had the last ring not in control of Sauron. I guess the other rings must have been recovered by Sauron much earlier. It was interesting to read about how uncoruptable the dwarfs were (ROTK, App. A, pg. 358):

The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it. All the more did Sauron hat the possesors and desire to dispossess them.

The rest of the text then describes Thrain's desire to return to Erebor and his capture, which eventually lead to Thorin's journey. So, in a sense, Sauron's capture of the last dwarf ring lead to his own downfall.

[Michael Martinez]

Whether Durin III got a Ring is questionable. Tolkien says that the Dwarves believed his Ring was given to him by Celebrimbor, but the only detailed accounts of the Rings' history indicate that Sauron gave out all seven of the Rings. Durin III, on the other hand, fought against Sauron.

That the Dwarves of the late Third Age/early Fourth Age believed their ancient king possessed a Ring of Power doesn't mean he really did. They had lost many records, and forgotten much lore. And the Dwarven Ringbearers seldom told anyone about their Rings anyway.

[Butterburr]

Thanks Michael. From what I read in App. A of ROTK though, it was very clear that one of the rings went to Durin III (I think), who gave it to Thror, who in turn gave it to Thrain who evidently was captured by Sauron. Is there any more mention of the other rings elsewhere? I'm only familiar with LoTR, Hobbit and Sil, and am interested out of pure curiosity, since Tolkien was clear about what happened to the other rings (the one, the three and the nine). Cheers!

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Butterburr
Thanks Michael. From what I read in App. A of ROTK though, it was very clear that one of the rings went to Durin III (I think), who gave it to Thror, who in turn gave it to Thrain who evidently was captured by Sauron. Is there any more mention of the other rings elsewhere? I'm only familiar with LoTR, Hobbit and Sil, and am interested out of pure curiosity, since Tolkien was clear about what happened to the other rings (the one, the three and the nine). Cheers!

Durin III lived several thousand years before Thror. Thror inherited his Ring from his father, Dain I. It is really not clear who got the Ring first in Durin's Line.

Some Ring history is provided in Unfinished Tales, and some Ring details are also provided in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

I wrote an essay last year called "Shhh! It's a secret ring!" It recaps as much as I know and can deduce about Ring history as possible.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/58090

[Butterburr]

Thanks for the link and the clarifications Michael.

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

What I've always wondered is what powers the rings gave the dwarfs. Anybody know?

[Butterburr]

The only one I know about is the one Dain I gave to Thror and then to Thrain, which is written about in appendix A of RoTK. If I remember correctly, it says there that this ring could "create" gold as long as you had some gold lying around. It also sounds like the rings made the dwarfs who carried them lust for more wealth. I'm going to check out the link Michael posted, and take a look at HoME when I have a chance. Hopefully there is more there.

[Michael Martinez]

The Ring didn't actually create gold. Thror told Thrain that "it needs gold to breed gold". This is an old truism. "It takes money to make money". Tolkien, however. may have been having one of his private little jokes when he wrote the "it needs gold to breed gold" line, as Norse mythology held that Odin's ring (given to him by a dwarf) would spawn 8 or 9 identical copies of itself every 8 or 9 nights.

[Ñólendil]

9, representing the Nine Worlds. Odin cast it away onto his son Baldr's funeral pyre in an extravagant gesture of grief, but it was returned to him by his other son Hermod, after the latter visited his dead brother in cold Niflheim, land of the unworthy dead.



Basking in the joy of knowing something Michael Martinez didn't,

[luinilwen]

Originally posted by Butterburr
[B]...It was interesting to read about how uncoruptable the dwarfs were (ROTK, App. A, pg. 358):
i just want to add (IMHO) that material greed is a corruption that equals the lust for power. in a way, the two go hand in hand. although i suppose by "incorruptible" you mean the dwarves wouldn't come under sauron's control and become evil. but "evil" is a subjective term... not so much in tolkien, i guess. *shrug*

[Butterburr]

Ok, ya got me. I agree that greed for material things is evil, although it sort of seems like this is something that was a fundamental part of being a dwarf - they were getting into spats with others early on over things like necklaces.

What I really meant was that it was interesting their rings didn't compel them to support Sauron in any direct way, or turn them into ringwraiths. If Sauron were really smart, he should have made use of this, but I guess he couldn't really trick people anymore the way he did early on.

I also don't think that the good/evil division in ME was always that clearly defined. For example, I certainly wouldn't call Boromir evil, but his actions at the end of FoTR almost resulted in Sauron or Saruman gaining The Ring.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Michael Martinez
Tolkien, however. may have been having one of his private little jokes when he wrote the "it needs gold to breed gold" line, as Norse mythology held that Odin's ring (given to him by a dwarf) would spawn 8 or 9 identical copies of itself every 8 or 9 nights.

That ring of Odin could that be the ring Draupnir? I'm sure I read something about that, somewhere...

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Butterburr
What I really meant was that it was interesting their rings didn't compel them to support Sauron in any direct way, or turn them into ringwraiths. If Sauron were really smart, he should have made use of this, but I guess he couldn't really trick people anymore the way he did early on.

Sauron's intent was indeed to create Dwarven Ringwraiths. He just didn't understand their nature well enough to achieve that end. In fact, the texts say that the Dwarves could not be turned into wraiths. Aule had made them unyielding to other wills.

[luinilwen]

Originally posted by Butterburr
I also don't think that the good/evil division in ME was always that clearly defined. For example, I certainly wouldn't call Boromir evil, but his actions at the end of FoTR almost resulted in Sauron or Saruman gaining The Ring.

perhaps i should have been more careful with my wording! by "not so much" i meant that of course LOTR isn't completely black and white, but one cannot deny that there are definite "good" and "evil" sides present, sides that are no longer applicable today.

i'm certainly no tolkien expert, although i would probably attribute the whole good vs. evil thing to the biblical aspects of LOTR. perhaps after the destruction of sauron and the departure of elves, both good and evil were attributes left to men.

sorry if that doesn't make complete sense, but i didn't want to be too long-winded. :)