The "Lost" White Council Members

[bmilder]

What ever happened to Alatar and Pallandro? Why were they not mentioned by name in LotR? Hernalt hinted at the answers in that trivia thread...

[Elanor]

Who knows? They got eaten by balfrogs maybe. Here's my new look!

[Darth Tater]

Let's just wait for Hernalt to come and tell us the answer...

[Loopy]

Where's Hernalt been anyway? Well, it says (more or less) why Alatar and Pallandro weren't in LOTR in one of the books of Lost Tales. (I can't remember whether or not I posted anything about it in the trivia thread) Let's see if I can remember correctly... Of the five wizards, Gandalf was the only one who kept to his mission. Saruman lusted for power and eventually turned to evil; Radagast (being favored by Yavanna) was so enamoured of birds and beasts that he forgot about everything else; Alatar and Pallandro travelled East (I think they went with Saruman) and never came back, which is why they were not involved in the War of the Ring. Maybe they died. Maybe they started cults of magic. There's probably more info about them at this website (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm). I can't tell you for sure though, because I haven't checked there yet. BTW, are you sure they were part of the White Council? I didn't think they were for some reason. Love the new icon, Elanor. It's very fitting :)

[bmilder]

Hmm, maybe they weren't. But I was always under the impression that there were 5 White Council members...

[Loopy]

I *think* it was... Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan... I'll try and find out for sure

[bmilder]

Really? I thought "White Council" was synonomous with "Istari."

[Loopy]

Nope. It was formed by the leaders of the Eldar and the Istari I'm not sure how many Elf lords were there. For some reason I think Glorfindel or someone might've been, but.....that may be my memory playing tricks

[Darth Tater]

Hmm, I'm trying to think but it isn't working.

[ArwenUndomiel02]

isn't that 6? are you sure it's galadriel? and not celeborn?(no offense g24&g1)

[Elanor]

Either Cirdan or Radagast was not on the list, because I know the other 4 were.

[galadriel1]

I believe it was Galadriel that called the White Council together, wasn`t it? I can`t remember what part of the trilogy says something to that effect? Perhaps when they were in Lothlorien? I remember Galadriel saying something about calling the White Concil together.

[galadriel1]

Hernalt, we need your expertise.

[anduin]

as quoted in The Sil.... But at length the Shadow returned and it's power increased: and in that time was first made the council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunir. And Curunir ( that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old. But that still doesn't answer the question: What happened to Alatar and Pallandro?

[Loopy]

I guess they were already long gone by that time

[galadriel1]

In Chapter VII of FOTR (the Mirror of Galadriel), Galadriel says, "I it was who first summoned the White Council, and if my designs had not gone amiss, it would have been governed by Gandalf the Grey, and then mayhap things would have gone otherwise. But even now there is hope left." It still doesn`t shed any light on the missing Istari, though. Just thought I`d share that. Hernalt, we`re still waiting! :-)

[anduin]

Well, Hernalt came to this forum this morning and posted in LiC's Somebody encourage me thread, but didn't post here, even though we paged him. :P Do you think he doesn't know the answer? I for one don't believe it :)

[galadriel1]

I guess there`s a first time for everything! :-) Hernalt, where are you? Perhaps he`s already begun his Thanksgiving festivities! hehe Speaking of which, Happy Turkey Day to all that are celebrating. Have Fun And Don`t Eat Too Much! -G.

[ArwenUndomiel02]

I guess I was wrong. Oh well, it's happened before! :)

[Hernalt]

There's not a whole lot on those two, since Tolkien himself kept them fashionably ethereal. Grey Havens - Two Istari (http://tolkien.cro.net/else/othertwo.html) Arda - Alatar: (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/alatar.html) Tolkien tells us 'What success they [Alatar and Pallando] had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 211). (Arda - Pallando. (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/p/pallando.html))<HR WIDTH=50% ALIGN=CENTER>ME: Wizards Guide: (http://non.com/metw/history/) Very little has been written about Alatar and Pallando. We know that Pallando was not actually bidden to go to Middle Earth by the Valar, but went with Alatar out of friendship (maybe this is why ICE made him the weakest of the five in METW). We also know that in the story, they went into the eastern portion of Middle Earth and hence did not enter into the story told in the Lord of the Rings, which centers around the west. Finally, it was Tolkien's opinion that all of the wizards except Gandalf were ultimately corrupted. While not turning to evil, Radagast 'went native', tending the birds and beasts of the wilderness, but doing very little to bring about the downfall of Sauron. Alatar and Pallando went into the eastern and southern regions of Middle Earth and did not return. According to the Unfinished Tales [HC, Houghton Mifflin, p.393], only Saruman, Gandalf, and Alatar were chosen to oppose Sauron. Pallando was taken by Alatar out of friendship, and Radagast was taken by Saruman because Yavanna, Aule's wife, begged him to do so. The Istari Revisited: (http://www.hu.mtu.edu/~jdcolman/istari.html) Relatively soon after the first millennium of the Third Age of Middle Earth came to pass, the Istari first appeared at the Grey Havens, having sailed from the Undying Lands. Their mission was to aid the Free Peoples in defeating Sauron, the Lieutenant of Morgoth (who had been banished to the Void by the Valar). The five Istari were Curomo, Olorin, Aiwendil, Alatar, and Pallando (in the Quenya tongue). They were chosen by various Valar during a council held to decide what to do about Sauron's might in Middle Earth, for Morgoth laid heavy chains of evil upon his Lieutenant. Curomo (Saruman, Curunir) was chosen by the Valar Aule while Alatar (one of the Ithryn Luin) was sent by Orome. Manwe himself chose Olorin (Gandalf, Mithrandir) for the Quest, and Yavanna begged Curomo to take Aiwendil (Radagast) with him. Finally, Alatar chose Pallando (the other Ithryn Luin) to go with him as a friend, and the number of the Istari was set at five. (UT, 393) It would seem that the choices of the Valar reflect on the innate characteristics of each Maiar. For instance, Aule chose Curomo, yet we are told that Sauron was once a Maiar of Aule and see very clearly in Lord of the Rings that, in his failure, Saruman is greedy and lustful just like Sauron. Aule is also the "smith and maker of crafts," (S, 318) just as both Sauron and Saruman are skilled in the creation of tools and technologies. Manwe chooses Olorin, yet would Nienna have not stood forth and recommended him in Manwe's stead? Manwe was the greatest among the Valar, just as Olorin was greatest among the Istari, yet Olorin also possessed the pity and selflessness of Nienna. Yavanna is the "Giver of Fruits," (S, 354) and loves the land and growing things of the world, just as Radagast does in Lord of the Rings. Alatar chose Pallando to go with him, and of these Blue Wizards and their corresponding Valar, we know nothing more. (UT 392-3)

[anduin]

Well, there you have it folks. Thanks Hernalt :)

[galadriel1]

Our fave Tolkien scholar made it back! hehe I knew he`d have a few words on the subject. Good to see you again.

[Fuor]

Who are they and what book ??

[Inoldonil]

Actually Tolkien revised the idea. In the latest writing they were not Alatar and Pallando but Morinehtar and Romenstamo, Darkness-slayer and East-helper. In this tale they came to Middle-earth at the same time as Glorfindel back from the dead, in the Second Age of the Sun. They went into the far East. Their mission was to aid the few Easterling tribes who had resisted Sauron and stir up rebellion in the rest. In this revised version they were largely successful, except in discovering the old fastness of Barad-dur. The information is found in the Peoples of Middle-earth, Late Writings.

[Inoldonil]

Alatar and Pallando ('Great [large of size] Day' and 'Wide [open] Woven Night') are the Ithryn Luin, the Blue Wizards in Tolkien's Essay, Of The Istari, found in Unfinished Tales, Part Four. Near the end of that essay where Wizards other than Gandalf were concerned, Christopher Tolkien said there was more written, but he couldn't make it out. Some time later before 1996 (or during that year) he made out the words and published them in The People's of Middle-earth. At this point they became Morinehtar and Romenstamo, and their success and history is changed. It is not said whether in this version (as the former one) that they were of the people of Orome.