"Sauron knows them not, they are older than he"

[CaranIstar]

Remember the bit when Gandalf the White re-encounters the remnants of the fellowship for the first time? When they were discussing the duel of Gandalf and the Balrog, Gandalf says something about the tunnels in the Abyss below Durin's bridge to be made by creatures older than and unknown by Sauron.

How can this be? I mean, as a Maiar isnt he at least as old as the world?

Forgive my ignorance if my assumption that all Maiar were made before the world is wrong :p

[ann]

You would think that Sauron would know about them since he was with Melkor for so long, but maybe Melkor created some other foul beings before Sauron came along. Just a guess, I do not know if Sauron's kind where there from the beginning or not.

[Ñólendil]

Yes, all the Ainur (Valar, Maiar, and those of this Race that remained with God) were created by the One before the Universe was shaped.

Some Maiar (or Valar) are older than others though. If the nameless things Gandalf speaks of are corrupted Maiar, it would make sense.

This is what Gandalf says: 'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. ...

They could also be members of some unique Race, capable in some mysterious way of being older than Sauron in one sense or another. Beats me.

[Wayfarer]

You could also take it in the sense that they were older than Sauron in Middle Earth i.e. Bombadil was 'the oldest', the supposition being that he was in middle earth before even melkor.

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that these were things that existed in Arda before the coming of the ainur.

[Ñólendil]

Yes, I like that idea better than mine.

Tom was only in the world 'before the Dark Lord came from Outside' according to himself though. I believe his life actually began when Melkor had been driven out and things were beginning to begin again, the beginning of Of the Beginning of Days in The Silmarillion is the right setting, for the first acorn and the first rain drop and all that. Thus when Melkor came back, Tom would naturally think it was his first arrival.

[emplynx]

I always assumed that this was a refrence to the Balrog and Gandalf knew it was in Moria... What do you think?

[bropous]

Okay, let me weigh in here.

I have been trying for a couple of days to delve into LOTR and Silmarillion to set right the quote, "...the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." I've typed post after post, then erased them, as I find yet anoter conflicting quote which destroyed the carefully-wought foundations of the castles of logic I built. I throw down, finally, trowel and mortar, and I am at the end of my labors. here is my take.

This matter cannot be reconciled. I think that this is another one of those "inconsistencies" Tolkien referred to. Now let's think for a moment here: Tolkien himself belabored over LOTR, niggling perfectionist that he was, editing and re-editing the books. However, he did not do the same for the Silmarillion, and it is there that the inconsitency on this issue arises.

Didn't Christopher Tolkien assemble The Silmarillion from his father's disjointed writings after the Master's death? Isn't it true that it was not in complete, nor even near complete form, when Christopher assembled and edited it? If so, then there was a detail overlooked here.

When the Valar and Maiar entered Ea, it was formless, they having been given only a vision of what would come later on as a result of their labors. And labor they did, and formed the Earth. Sauron, as a Maiar in the service of Aule, helped to form the Earth, and in doing so, must have been OLDER than anything that dwelt therein. Also, as a Maiar, he is really ageless, having existed in spirit with Illuvatar from the beginning. However, if one counts his age from the forming of the Earth, the creator must ALWAYS be "older" than the created.

So. Like the cognizant dissonance between Gildor's claim that Tom Bombadil is "eldest, and fatherless" and Gandalf's assertion that Fangorn/Treebeard is "oldest of the living things which walk under the Sun" [paraphrase], which Tokien left in intentionally [such a perfectionist would not have left this unedited and uncorrected except on purpose], this is an inconsistency. I do not say an intentional inconsitency, because the Master did not produce the Silmarillion in its final form, but it is an inconsistency that he might have reconciled in his [forgive me, Master!] anally retentive re-editing of the Silmarillion prior to his intended release of that book.

Just my humble Elven Warrior's opinion...

[bropous]

emplynx, even had Gandalf been referring to the Valaraukar in Moria, the Balrog, the fire-demons of Morgoth the Enemy were Maiar. Sauron also was Maiar, as was Gandalf. Thence, none of the Maiar could be any older than any other, as far as I have been able to discern.

Olorin, known in Middle-Earth as Gandalf, is listed as the "wisest of the Maiar" in the Silmarillion, but Sauron had, apparently, in Middle-Earth the greater strength, and the Valaraukar of Moria was a definite match to the strength of Gandalf as the Grey, at least for the majority of their battle, until the Valaraukar chickened out at Gandalf's mastery, turned tail and ran.

In trying to resolve the age issue, as stated in my other post, no one in Middle Earth, Ea, could be any older than any of the Valar or Maiar, or even Morgoth. Recall that when the Valar were creating Ea, Morgoth was there to despoil all of their creations. He then withdrew for a time, then re-descended into Ea, but he had been there at the beginning. Therefore, Melkor, AND Sauron as a servant Maiar of Aule, both had a hand in the creation of all things, and again, the creation can never be older than the creator.

[Gandalf The Grey]

I never knew that Sauron was that old

[Gandalf The Grey]

I never knew that Sauron was that old!Did Elrond help create Middle earth to?Because in the lord of the rings movie it states that Elrond is 3000 years old.

[bropous]

No, Elrond did not exist at the beginning of the Earth. That occurred FAR more than 3,000 years prior to the happenings concerning Frodo.

Elrond is the son of Elendil and Elwing. Earendil was the son of Tuor, son of Huor, son of Belegund, son of Bregolas, son of Bregor, son of Beor the Old.

Elwing was the daughter of the union of Dior, Thingol's heir, and Nimloth [of Doriath]. Dior was the son of the union of Beren and Luthien. Luthien was the daughter of Elwe/Thingol and Melian. Elwe/Thingol was one of the first three Elves to leave Cuivienien [the birthplace of the Elves] and come, at the bidding of Orome, The Hunter of the Valar, to Valinor.

Melian was a Maiar spirit who fell in love with Thingol and came to live as his queen in Doriath, the great Elven Kingdom of the First Age.

Elrond is the great-grandson of Beren and Luthien. He was born in, I believe, the First Age. He is VERY old, and of a higborn and quite distinct lineage.

I think I got this genealogy correct.

[bropous]

Correction: Elrond was the son of Earendil and Elwing. Sorry.

[Wayfarer]

Also...

Elrond was speaking of the 3000 years since the Last Alliance.

In actuality, he was far, far older.

i.e, the Last Alliance ended the Second Age, but Elrond was born sometime in the First . So he cou.d conceviebly be something like ten thousand years old.

[UnStashable]

Elrond wasn't Ten thousand years old (at the time of LOTR), he lived through the enitire 2nd age which (i think) was about 3300 years and the 3rd which was about 3000 years so he was a little over 6k years old (substanial yes but not quite 10k). He was born at the end of the 1st age So i don't think he got any substanial number of years from that age.

I also like Wayfarer's response the best. I recently came into possesion of the Illustraited Tolkien Encyclopedia, and A Tolkien Bestoary, both by David Day and was dissapointed how he just tells you that the things are Kracken and other beasts of Melkor which dosent fit reall well.

[bropous]

Only problem with that explanation is, NOTHING in Middle-Earth or Ea existed prior to the coming of the Ainur. The Ainur created the Earth, right from the very beginning, and Melkor fought their every effort from the very beginning. Illuvatar only showed the Ainur a vision of the Earth when he opened their eyes to the Void, and when they decided to enter Ea, they found it wasn't there. They had to create it. Sauron was a Maiar in the service of Aule, and was there at the beginning of all things as well.

Again, no living thing could possibly have existed prior to the coming of the Ainur, because the Earth itself did not exist prior to the coming of the Ainur. Ainur, ergo est. [wink!]

[Elfstone.]

Well it may be that instead of the truth coming straight out to us there is another approach that I will try to portray to you friends now.

When manwe and the others were creating the world it was then that Melkor said this"This shall be my own kingdom ; and I will name it unto myself!" Then manwe told him that tohers had worked on it that he can't have it and what not and at that time then he called unto himself many spirits both greater and less

This shows that there were others in the world than that of just the Valar and Maiar hence the Balrogs could have also been one of these spirits just a spirit that worked for Melkor. So it could be that these spirits were not older than Sauron but older to Middle Earth than he.

Just another thought although I dont' think we'll ever find an answer.

[bropous]

But, Elfstone, the Valaraukar, the Balrogs, were Maiar. Check the Silmarillion, page 26.

[Ñólendil]

"Only problem with that explanation is, NOTHING in Middle-Earth or Ea existed prior to the coming of the Ainur. "

Where is this said at all? Of course the Flame Imperishable at least was there. There's no inconsistency or error with nameless things in the depths of the earth being older than Sauron. There's no reason to suppose that Sauron was the oldest Maia, there could be older Maiar, or 'older' could mean 'older in the world' as Wayfarer suggested. Something could have been in the shapeless Ea before the Valar arrived, being an independent creation of Eru.

Again, no living thing could possibly have existed prior to the coming of the Ainur,

No living thing that required air to breath. Though, I believe the Ainur themselves are considered to be alive. Even so, the nameless things may not be living things. Tom Bombadil, probably, is not considered to be a living thing (for whatever reason). Anyway that's my logic, Tom's Eldest, Treebeard is the oldest living thing, so Tom's not considered to be a living thing.

[Wayfarer]

An interesting theory I heard said that tom bombadil was the rational incarnation of the music of illuvatar, while creatures such as ungoliant arose from the dischord of melkor.

In that case... they, and anything else that arose fromt he music, could have existed prior to the coming of the ainur.

[Ñólendil]

An interesting theory I heard was that Tom Bombadil is a Vala (either Tulkas or Aulë) so in that sense he could be older than Sauron too. *stomps on Shannon's foot* Go to school, dolt!

[ChildofEru]

An interesting theory I heard was that Tom Bombadil is a Vala (either Tulkas or Aulë)
I've heard this as well.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
*stomps on Shannon's foot* Go to school, dolt!

I'll be a senior pretty quick (before the end of the semester). What are you talking about?

[Gandalf the White]

Originally posted by ChildofEru

I've heard this as well.

I read that too - it seems like quite a strong opinion with all the evidences :). But there are many other strong opinions. Who knows what Tolkein intended?

About the creatures that Sauron may not know about, the following quote might be helpful (from the Silmarillion):

"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into the darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valarauko, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror."

So that was in the time of Morgorth. Tolkein only mentions the Balrogs, but there could be Maiar who turned out worse than them and Sauron never knew of them ...

[Ñólendil]

Gandalf, I was being sarcastic. That Tom is Aulë or Tulkas or a Vala at all is one of the more absurd theories I've heard. Even besides Tolkien's comment that he was an aborigine and the strong implication his life began in Arda, there's common sense. Tom Bombadil cannot be two people at once. There are the Valar outside the Circles of the World in the Unseen, and there's Tom in Middle-earth. You can't be both. I refuse to believe that the Maker of the Dwarf-fathers or the Champion of the Valar was living by the Withywindle. Tom is not Aule or Tulkas anymore then he is Gimli or Éomer, Goldberry isn't Yavanna or Nessa anymore then she is Galadriel or Éowyn. It makes no sense whatsoever.

What are you talking about?

I was making fun of the theory you heard of. I exaggerated, it's not all that bad. But think of the Music of the Ainur. Everything in there came from the Ainur (whether the uncorrupt ones, Melkor's followers or Melkor himself) or direct from Eru. But the stuff that came direct from Eru entered in with the Third Theme, which had much to do with the Children of Ilúvatar. But the Children weren't considered older than Sauron because they arose from the Music. Sauron like every other Ainu after all took part in the Music. There's arguments against my arguments [for instance you probably meant that Tom could have arose immediately from the Music, could have been created in that instant in Ea before the Ainur arrived there. One of the problems is that Eru hadn't said 'Ea' yet] , yours isn't nearly as bad as 'Tom's a Vala', but I like making fun of you.

[Gandalf the White]

Well thats fair enough - I said there are lots of opinions! :)

I've only read 2 or 3 essays on the topic, so I dont know and I'm not a Tolkein scholar of any level...

I read the article at http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

and thought it was quite good.

:D

[bropous]

As the "head" of my order, the
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO [thanks for the "promotion", O Site Gods!], "bropous the plaid", I'll wade in on the whole "Bombadil as Aule/Tulkas" debate.

Quite simply, it may be rumored, but has no basis in the witings of Tolkien. To tell you the thruth, the idea of either Aule or Tuklas telling ANYONE "don't crush my lillies!" just don't fit, especially for Tulkas!

No, Bombadil is a separate being, not Elf, nor Man, nor Ent, nor Hobbit. He is separate, "the Eldest and Fatherless", and is the oldest being in Middle-Earth, but then again, here is the "inconsitency" Tolkien himself purposely left in to see if we were paying attention. Tolkien says later in the books that it is Fangorn/Treebeard who is "oldest of living beings walking under the Sun".

I thought for a moment that Bombadil had awakened in the twilight, and that Treebeard had awakened at the rising of the New Sun. However, even the Elves awoke prior to the Sun. Theory dashed.

It's just an inconsistency. And we ARE paying attention, O Master!

Also, Gandalf the Grey, as Morgoth/Melkor's chief lieutenant, Sauron/Gorthaur the Cruel knew ALL of Morgoth's servants, and none were older than he nor unknown to him. Hey may have FORGOTTEN about them, but he knew them at least back i nthe First Age. And, it is impossible to reconcile LotR and the Silmarillion on this issue. Another inconsistency.

[bropous]

Not Only...But Also...

When the Ainur "went into the World", they found it wasn't even in existence, they were only shown a VISION of the world to come. They had to create it themselves. Therefore, no thing IN or ON the Earth could be older than any Valar or Maiar. A creation cannot be "older" than the creator.