Gandalf about to die?

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

Just before the eagles came and saved them, it says that Gandalf was about to jump down and kill as many goblins as he could and die that way. I find it hard to beleive that so few goblins could have killed him. Was this just a mistake made by Biblo?

[Ñólendil]

I don't think so, the narrator's pretty distinct from the main character in The Hobbit. Gandalf wasn't invulnerable, I'm sure the Goblins would have killed him (there were a great many of them there for one thing, and hundreds and hundreds of Wargs). The fall off the tree is painful enough, but they have spears, and numbers, and demonic wolves. He's only human. ;)

[Spock]

I think the numbers and the fact that Gandalf's powers hadn't come into full strength (based upon later works) played a part in the escape .

[Wayfarer]

Somehow, I always imagined him jumping down onto a gorest of spears, and being impaled, but smushing a bunch of orcs as he landed. :)

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

But I mean, come on, this is the Gandalf that killed a Balrog! What are a few goblins and wargs to him? I think that Biblo just didn't realize how powerful Gandalf really was.

[Wayfarer]

A single, skilled opponent can often be easier than a horde of minions all attacking at once.

[Spock]

A point illustrated in Princess Bride where Andre the Giant says he hasn't practiced fighting just one opponent he's used to fighting whole villages.
The fighting principle applies but so does the logic.

[Gandalf The Grey]

Gandalf would not die because of Goblens.

[Ñólendil]

Why not? He was injured by Goblins, after the Battle of Five Armies he had his arm in a cast. The narrative says 'that would have been the end of him'. There was an army of Goblins down there with many weapons, and an army of Wargs. Gandalf wouldn't have stood a chance.

[Wayfarer]

Dylan! Bursting a fanboy's bubble, are we?

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

Yea, it says he was about to die. But remember that it was Biblo who wrote that. Probably before FOTR as a matter of fact. He wasn't really aware of just how powerful Gandalf was.

[Ñólendil]

*begins poking bubbles*

Tolkien translated Bilbo's story, which was written by him _of course_, but in the translation he appears to have altered the point of view. Same with the Lord of the Rings, Frodo is 'Frodo', not 'I' or 'me'. 'That would have been the end of him' may have been a comment from Tolkien, based on his studies (though judging by his Gollum-comments he hadn't yet translated the other parts of his Red Book copy that dealt with the War of the Ring), or it could be Bilbo's impression at the time, as you say. But I think it's reasonable to suppose Gandalf would have died. He was falling off a tall tree, no, leaping off a tall tree in a fiery wreck on top of an army of Wargs and Goblins with spears. He would have killed many of them, as The Hobbit says, but he would have died too. It's not like in Moria Gandalf turned around and started killing off hundreds of Orcs, leaving Aragorn to lead the Fellowship over the bridge. They would have killed him if he had tried, there were just too many. Numbers may not matter if we're talking about smirfs, but these are Orcs.

[Agburanar]

At that point in the hobbit Gandalf is very much the grey. I have no doubt that they would have killed him. By the time the fellowship got to Moria Gandalf had a lot more help and knew of Saruman's treachery so had begun his transformation to the White. When Gandalf and the fellowship encountered wargs going south below Charadras Gandalf only scared them off. Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli killed many more which would have eaten Gandalf had he been alone. Gandalf had to flee from the black riders on Weathertop and there were only nine of them, there were about nine hundred orcs and wargs below those fir trees!

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

Hmm...perhaps y'all have a point, although I'm still not sure about it. I do want to point out though that nine Nazgul are much worse than nine hundred goblins!

[Agburanar]

Yes, but what about 9 black riders? The Nazgul of books 2 and 3 are much more powerful than the ringwraiths of book 1.

[Lightice]

Originally posted by Agburanar
Yes, but what about 9 black riders? The Nazgul of books 2 and 3 are much more powerful than the ringwraiths of book 1.

They weren't less powerful. They were same creatures with same powers. However, their point was secrecy. They didn't want to be noticed at that time, but stay intimidative. They were just as hard to notice, as nazgul could be made. If they would had used their full powers, there might had been minior problems, that could be easily avoided, so they did. It's hard to imagine, why they would be less powerful.

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

They were more powerful when they were closer to Morder.

[Renille]

That, and they had flying steeds in books 2 and 3. They were more "scary" that way.

[Agburanar]

They were more powerful because Sauron was growing in strength all the way through the books and their power grew as his did.

[afro-elf]

Can you state reasons why you feel 9 Nazgul are worse that 900 Goblins

[Lightice]

I'd say, that nine Nazgul would be darm much harder to kill than 900 goblins, plus their special powers and aura of fear.

[Spock]

For one, the goblins were scared stiff of the Nazgul. They held more power; magical; whereas goblins have mere strength; stamina; to go on.

[Lightice]

Originally posted by Spock
For one, the goblins were scared stiff of the Nazgul. They held more power; magical; whereas goblins have mere strength; stamina; to go on.

And nazgul can propably keep on fighting forever against lesser foes, at least in place where sun does not shine, as I can't imagine them getting tired.

[afro-elf]

However, 900 spears, swords and arrows would do a lot of damage.

And being mauled by Wargs is kinda tough too.

[Agburanar]

I simply meant it's harder to keep your eyes on 900 goblins than it is to keep track of 9 nazgul.

[Wayfarer]

I think it would be easier to stay alive with the nazgul, but not nescessarily easier to defeat them.

After all, they have some pretty glaring weaknesses. (fire, water, light)

[afro-elf]

Thank you for articulating what I failed to verbalize.

[Wayfarer]

Any Time. ;)

[nobody]

I can`t imagine a maia being killed by all the goblins in the world, so much for 900.

[afro-elf]

When Maia become incarnate they can be harmed.("killed")

Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar and Fingolfin caused him seven wounds that NEVER healed.

Sauron was "killed " by Gil Galad and Elendil.

Glorfindel and Ecthelion slew Maia.

Saruman was killed by wormtongue.

Finrod slew a great werewolf ( an Maia)


This is Tolkien's world not one like DnD or other high fantasy worlds.

[Twilight]

I think that the most imporntant part on Afro-elf's list is Sauruman. I was an Istari, the same as Gandalf. All it takes is one good strike to take an Istari. Surrounded on all sides, the dwarves would die fairly quickly. Then Galdalf would be surrounded and alone. He can't guard all sides at once. That is why one oponent is sometimes easyer. You know where all of him is. You don't know where every threat is while surrounded.

[Christiana]

I agree.

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by afro elf
Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar and Fingolfin caused him seven wounds that NEVER healed. you're right, but Glorfindel can't kill vala, even if he's ncarnate.
I guess that maia could been killed, as Saruman, but if they get out of their "body" they can't be defited. Sauron got out of his body after he lost to Huan in the bottle and when he got in to a new body he was still heart.

[SamwiseGamgeeOTS]

don't you think that if Gandalf is a wizard that he could do something like cast a spell or something. He barely does any magic. I should think that there would be some kind of spell to save them if the eagles had not come.

[Christiana]

Hes not really an hp wizard.

[SamwiseGamgeeOTS]

so...he has some power doesn't he? he doesn't have to be a high powered wizard.

[Christiana]

hp-harry potter.

They were forbidden to come forth in their power as Maia.They were limited to the form of Men.

[Radagast The Brown]

Gandalf was a maia. The Valar wanted to bring to ME someone who could fight and win Sauron. They brang the maiar in bodies and because they were in a body they were wicker then usaully. Saruman, Radagast, Sauron and Gandalf were all maiar.

[Radagast The Brown]

for SamwiseGamgeeOTS:

Gandalf was a maia. The Valar wanted to bring to ME someone who could fight and win Sauron. They brang the maiar in bodies and because they were in a body they were wicker then usaully. Saruman, Radagast, Sauron and Gandalf were all maiar.
Gandalf could have been die becaus ehe was in a body.

[SamwiseGamgeeOTS]

sorry.......I didn't know that. I'm relatively new at all this...my bad.:rolleyes:

[Christiana]

its ok.

[Radagast The Brown]

you have to read The Silmarilion. :) it's all there.

[SamwiseGamgeeOTS]

I'm getting there. I'm just not ready yet.:)

[Tessar]

You guys also forget the fact that the hobbit is a completely different writing style then LOTR is.

The Hobbit is a cute little book about a little guy running off to get some gold.

LOTR is a harrowing journey full of fear, death, and poetry. The style is more poetic and the perils are more "perilous".

Except for the fact that LOTR stemmed from TH you could almost say the TH was an alternate ME.

[Radagast The Brown]

So what you are saying is.... your point is that.....

what you're saying not refute to the fact that Gandalf could die.

[webwizard333]

:eek: I put it in the wrong thread, thanks for pointing this out.

[Radagast The Brown]

okay...... but what with that and with the subject?? :confused:

[Thorir Orcbane]

Then if Maiar could not use there power as men how come when the Balrog was attacking the door in Moria, Gandalf put a sealing spell on the door and cursed the Balrog? What does that say?

[Christiana]

Hmmm.... Gandalf did use spells before in both the Hobbit and FotR. Maybe a sealing spell was permitted because it didn't require him to reveal his full power? And maybe when he cursed the Balrog the power lay more in what he said than any 'spell,' akin to how "the name of Elbereth" drove off the Nazgul? Any thoughts?

[Noble Elf Lord]

I'd say, that nine Nazgul would be darm much harder to kill than 900 goblins, plus their special powers and aura of fear.

The point is not whether you can kill them, but whether you can get out of the situation alive. Where do you think you have better chances - in the middle of a 900-headed Orc thrall, or in front of nine fire-, water- and Elf-fearing Nazgûl?

(And as a side note, truly has the Númenorian blood grown thin if the Men of Minas Anor fear those wretched shadows.)

[Tinman]

I first off am one to believe that gandalf was powerful, but not super man. He was just as easily killed by a stray arrow as any random soldier.

That being said, I think Gandalf maybe could have escaped the burning tree's that night, but I dont think that was his goal. Gandalf had a mission that was bigger than himself, and his job was to get those dwarves across middle earth, and to set them up with the means to defeat a potentially undefeatable ally to sauron. Sure, maybe gandalf could make it out alive, but what about the dwarves? What about the poor bumbling burglar he hired? If they failed their missing, the siege of dol goldur would have been impossible, as no doubt, smaug would have recruited to Sauron's agenda.

Gandalf was planning to go off like a bomb, take out as many of the goblins and wargs in the area that he could, so that the dwarves mission might be a success. Their fate determined the fate of the White Council's next move.

[Valandil]

Besides - at the time Bilbo wrote down this adventure, he didn't know that Gandalf was a Maia. Or maybe even what a Maia was! :)

[Pitchike12]

I don't think Gandalf died because of that. Actually Gandalf jumped because he is I think going to ride a dragon? That what I just remembered.:rolleyes:

[Huorn]

I've read the Hobbit. I didn't get the impression that Gandalf died at all. This is news to me.

[Varnafindë]

If you read the first post of this thread, you'll see that we're just discussing what might have happened.
Gandalf was rescued, so he didn't have to risk dying there and then after all.
You're quite right that he didn't die in The Hobbit.

[the insane one]

Going back to the main point about Gandalf, it wasnt until Bilbo saw him blowing smoke rings in Beorns house he saw how great he was, So he may have underestimated him.
But Gandalf still takes the form of 'an old man' and despite "magic" powers he could still be physically broken (just like his arm) or killed biophysically

[Mark of Cenla]

In my humble opinion, he would have died. I have no deep analysis, but based on reading The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings many times, I believe they could have killed him.

[Torongil]

Yea, he probably would have blasted a lot of the goblins and wargs with all of the strength he had in a lightning bolt or something but in the end I believe he would have been cut into threads...

[Thorir Orcbane]

Honestly, and with all due respect to the numerous opinions of all here, I don't think the great Gandalf would have been defeated just yet. I realise that he was not the White yet, and may have not been able to access that amount of power, but remember he was only second to Saruman the White, and as an Istari and Maia, he was still extremely powerful and not a force to be reckoned with. Not saying he would escape from a few hundred Orcs and Wargs unscathed, but he would probably escape nonetheless.

[barrelrider110]

I first off am one to believe that gandalf was powerful, but not super man. He was just as easily killed by a stray arrow as any random soldier.

That being said, I think Gandalf maybe could have escaped the burning tree's that night, but I dont think that was his goal. Gandalf had a mission that was bigger than himself, and his job was to get those dwarves across middle earth, and to set them up with the means to defeat a potentially undefeatable ally to sauron. Sure, maybe gandalf could make it out alive, but what about the dwarves? What about the poor bumbling burglar he hired? If they failed their missing, the siege of dol goldur would have been impossible, as no doubt, smaug would have recruited to Sauron's agenda.

Gandalf was planning to go off like a bomb, take out as many of the goblins and wargs in the area that he could, so that the dwarves mission might be a success. Their fate determined the fate of the White Council's next move.


I agree with Tinman. As a Maia, Gandalf's spirit may have been immortal but his body was not. They were facing unbeatable odds, and to stay in the trees would have meant certain death for all. His plan was a desperate attempt to use his subtle arts to save the Dwarves and Bilbo. To do that he would have needed to occupy all the Goblins and Wargs and until he was sure his charges were out of harm's way. A fighting retreat would have been out of the question.

[Tinman]

A great quote from the appendices, when gandalf is speaking of the importance of the quest for erebor:

"Yet things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valour of Durin's Folk. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted – because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth."

It really puts into perspective how important the dwarves mission was, and I think Gandalf truely believed at that second their fate was tied to the fate of middle earth.