Are Orcs reincarnated?

[Mandos]

Do Orcs come back in other bodies? Because in LoR Shagrat and Gorbag (I think thats their names) were talking about the Great Siege. Could that be the time when the Last Alliance laid siege to Mordor? After all, Orcs are thought be twisted elves.

[bmilder]

I wonder if they are just immortal, since they are copies of Elves...

[Inoldonil]

Tolkien later seemed to have decided they were corruptions of Men. I like to think both. If they were indeffinitely longeval like the Elves, they would still die some time (if they were slain).

I'm not sure, but I don't think Mordor was under siege exactly. The war was all over the place, wasn't it?

I bet he was talking about an even further time, the Siege of Angband. This wouldn't mean necessarily that he _remembers_ it, but atleast it lived on as a tale of terror. Maybe he did remember, though.

This thread ought rather I think to be under Lord of the Rings Books, or the general Middle-earth forum.

[bmilder]

Agreed.

[Finduilas]

Makes sense, but the orcs predated Men in Middle-Earth. This makes me more inclined to think they are corrupted elves.

[Elsilar]

"...all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves" (Quenta Silmerillion: Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor)

To get to the answer about orcs we have to look at there roots. What happens to elves if they are slain (or surrender their life)? They do not totalyl end. They go and dwell in the Halls of Mandos and are still capable of interaction with the Valar ((just as Luthien Tinuviel sang to Namo, who is Mandos)[Silmarillion Chr 19]) and other Elves ((which was the hope that Finwe had in seeing Elwe again)[Silmarillion Chr 5])

It seems impossible for orcs to be men because the destiny of Men (their inevitable death) was beyond the power Melkor to prevent. He also had all of the easterlings to serve him that he could want.

To the point about reincarnation: Never was the concept of a "loop" or continual rebirth of the same orc being mentioned. The question of what happens to the Orc spirit that would have no place in the Hall of Mandos in the Blessed realm? I supposes the same that happened to other fell being.
Just like Sauron became a mere spirit that would bite itself for ages and like Ungoliant that devoured herself; maybe the orc soul would wander without a place unless they were to return to the place of Utumno or Thangorodrim where their horrid existance began.

[Finduilas]

The debate is that (as far as I can remember) Tolkien changed his mind in some of the later writings.

[Inoldonil]

Finduilas, according to the Quenta Silmarillion. Tolkien's later ideas seem to contradict this, but he never revised that part or struck it out. It would be a radical change, whatever wars between the Eldar of Beleriand and the enemies of Angband that occured before the Sun would not have involved Orcs. That is one of the reasons I like both ideas, that some were corruptions of Men, and others of Elves

'It seems impossible for orcs to be men because the destiny of Men (their inevitable death) was beyond the power Melkor to prevent.'

Why would that matter?

[Finduilas]

I don't think it would matter. And that is a good idea that orcs were both.

[Mace McClain]

So do I...orcs are twisted.

[Roland]

After stumbling upon this topic earlier today I had a quick look for all the references I could find to the origin of the orcs. I found two in the Silmarillion (p.50,93-94 1999 HarperCollins edition) which both claim that the orcs were originally derived from Elves in one way or another. The other reference I found was in Unfinished Tales, and was one of Tolkien's notes concerning the Druedain (p.497-498 1998 HarperCollins edition). This reference claims that the orcs were breed from men, but is really only quoting the opinion of the Eldar.
Does anyone know of any other references to Orc origins? I'm particularly interested to see where else it says that orcs were bred from men.

[Mace McClain]

I cant remember anyother notations about Orc origins.

[Inoldonil]

There are a few in the Tolkien Letters. I don't know how specific they are, but there is much talk on the origins of Orcs.

[Roland]

Interesting. Thanks Inoldonil. I'll have to get a copy.

[Roland]

I managed to get a copy of The Letters of JRR Tolkien, and it does indeed contain some references to orcish origins. Letter 144 describes them as 'corruptions' but doesn't state what exactly orcs were before this took place. Letter 153 goes one step further, calling the orcs 'counterfeit' and actually mentioning 'legends of the Eldar Days' in which some of the earliest elves are 'subjugated and corrupted' by 'Diabolus' (presemably Morgoth). The same letter also briefly touches on the main subect of this thread, but unfortunatly doesn't provide a final answer as to what happens to an orc's soul.
I have only skimmed the book, and I haven't yet read every letter in detail, and I'm yet to find any reference to orcs being corrupted men. Can anyone narrow down my search by giving me a few references?
The idea of orcs being twisted forms of both Men and Elves causes a few problems for me. Why would Morgoth bother twisting the newly arrived men into orcs when the first orcs (the corrupted Elves) are already vastly increasing their numbers?

[Finduilas]

There might be something in Morgoths Ring or The War of The Jewels.
I'm not going looking right now as I am Typing on my lap since our computer desk self-destructed last night.

[Inoldonil]

At the moment I can only cite Unfinished Tales again. Yes, that was from the perspective of Elves, but inevitably from Elves of the First Age. Elves were not familiar with the Druedain in the Third Age. So you have First Age Elves saying it was doubtless Morgoth made Orcs from different kinds of Men. Yet in the Quenta Silmarillion written much earlier it is very clear your First Age Elves think they were made from Avari. Clearly Tolkien changed his conception. In this, there would be no corrupted Elves into Orcs.

I like to think both because the Mannish conception contradicts so many earlier important writings that people have knowledge about, but explains the especial hatred between the Drugs and the Orcs.

[Roland]

Fair enough. Something that just occured to me. I could be completely wrong about this, as I don't know much about Elves, but is it possible that different First Age Elves believed different things about the Orcs? It would explain the inconsistencies.
As to the Drugs, I'd say the note can be understood either way, as it presents both opinions about their relation to the Orcs.

[Inoldonil]

I wouldn't think so. It would have been possible, but their general opinion was one way or the other. It would be reasonable to suppose that however, if only to be in accord with both the final known word and the mostly known word.

It is important to read the entire note (this is the part from CT):

-- In The Silmarillion the Orcs are said to have been bred by Melkor from captured Elves in the beginning of their days (p. 50; cf. pp. 93-4); but this was only one of several diverse speculations on the origin of the Orcs.

[Roland]

I haven't forgotten that part of the note. Far from it. That particular quote leads me to believe there's more material on Orc origins, which is why I've been asking if anyone knows of any more references.
As far as I can see it, the only place where our opinions on all this differ is that you place one theory ahead of another simply becuase it was conceived later. I don't see the reference from Unfinished Tales as a revision, more as a speculation on the relationship bewteen Drugs and Orcs. The passages in the Silmarillion are really only speculation as well, becuase they are echoing the opinions of the Elves, who don't know for certain where the Orcs came from. So what we end up with, is a lot of speculation and no concrete answer to the question. Perhaps Tolkien hadn't decided and maybe he didn't intend to. The end result is that we'll never know for sure.
I see both the theories we know of (Men or Elves) as being equally valid, but only one can be correct. Unless there's a reference somewhere in which Tolkien's opinion is given, rather than that of the Elves, we'll never know which one that is.

[Inoldonil]

Later words on Orcs: speculations, rather than revisions? Certainly. But I accept later speculations rather than older ones, usually. That's the later known idea of Tolkien's, which logically would replace the older one (if we had record of him finally deciding the original one was the best, I'd go with that).

To explain myself, I should probably give a short summary of my method of cannon. Firstly, anything published in Tolkien's life time on Middle-earth I feel bound by in all but one area, because Tolkien felt bound by anything published in his lifetime as well. The 'one area' are the Appendices, because that was put together in great haste and mistakes have been noted there later: Tolkien accidentally may have omitted a Numenorean King, the extra information about Durin VII was lost, and such things. There are also contradictions. Sam Gamgee, for example, is given two different birth dates.

So what was published in his life time on Middle-earth? The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Road Goes Ever On.

Secondly, one has all the other stuff to deal with. All the stuff published after Tolkien's death. In these instances (my logic is that a later idea replaces the older one or must be accepted to if we haven't heard the even later idea) I go with the latest known word on the subject, unless this contradicts what was published in Tolkien's life, which he felt bound by. That is, if it does without a doubt contradict a work published in his lifetime, it must be an accident on Tolkien's part (the exception being in a few places of the Appendices) because he felt bound by those.

Ofcourse, there is still a bit more to that. I'm not going to go around calling Maedhros Maedron because Tolkien declared (its published in Peoples of Middle-earth) in his last four years that that was what he was going to change his name to, many people would wonder just who I was talking about (as they ought to be expected to). That's just one example of many. Another example: there are later unpublished texts that differ from the older ones (neither differing from published ones) in which it is impossible to tell whether Tolkien changed his mind or had forgotten what he wrote earlier.

Other people do different things, noone agrees on what is cannon, so I try not to be forceful about ' my cannon', as people apparently put it. I'm just telling you how I arrive at conclusions.

But I think it apparent by 'speculations' Christopher Tolkien meant the speculations of his father - even though it concerned the speculations of his characters (it would thus apply to both his father's speculations and the characters').

I mean, in The Quenta Silmarillion and Of Dwarves and Men (this latter was the original essay in which that bit about the Drugs, Orcs and Men appeared) it is the speculation of the Elves, but in parts of the narrative of the former it is the narrator who says Orcs were corruptions of Elves, and after the speculations of the Elves was stated in one of the passages, there is a narrative note saying 'in which they guessed all too near, tis said'. As Tolkien had said in Letters they were made from Children of Iluvatar, the passages in the Quenta convey to me Tolkien's opinion - put into the heads of Elves. So I think the same of the Drug passage, esp. since there is that line about 'still, some thought~'.

It also may be noted that Tolkien in his persona as translator doesn't 'know' anything about what is true, really, he could only study and base his factual conclusions on the perceptions of persons in histories. In this point of view, The Quenta Silmarillion was put together in Numenore, so the narrative views would probably be attributed to them. But that would be true for any point in this view, and if only the other-than-character-ideas were accepted as true, then we couldn't accept anything as true. You have to draw the line somewhere.

Yet I agree we will never know for sure. :)