An easier, less costly way to get the Ring to Oroduin...

[IronParrot]

At Rivendell, they should have decided to call up the Eagles.

Eagles bear Frodo, etc. to Mount Doom.

Frodo chucks the Ring in.

End of story

[Ñólendil]

Except there's the whole problem of secrecy being thrown out the window and Sauron's servants destroying all the Nine Walkers (or Flyers) before you can say 'bad idea', not to mention Eagles getting tired after a few thousand miles.

[emplynx]

I have often thought about this...
but,
Getting killed, maybe. Tiring, no. It was only about 700 miles from Rivendell to Mt. Doom, the eagles could do it easily.

[webwizard333]

Two Reasons that couldn't happen:

1. Tolkien wanted a good story with lots of excitmement, adventure, lessons, . . .
2. Wouldn't the Eagles be capable of corruption from the ring too?

[Comic Book Guy]

Not to mention that the Great Eye would have the eagles, the Weight of the ring would have been too great for the eagles to carry and the eagles can't just be called up upon to deal with the problems of other people.

[easterlinge]

A lesser writer (like Robert Jordan) would have had them discover a magic portal in Minas Morgul and teleport them to Mt. Doom. Or maybe Frodo and Sam get captured, took to Barar-dur, escape, discover a magic portal somewhere in the Dark Tower, and teleport to Orodruin.

I just don't like the idea of magical teleportation in fantasy. Too easy.

[Michael Martinez]

The biggest problem with all Eagle theories is that they don't take into consideration the fact that the Council of Elrond was not in a position to make any plans based on availability of resources not represented in Rivendell. They had to go forth with what they had, and they didn't have any Eagles.

And, on top of that, since Frodo proved incapable of destroying the Ring anyway, whatever poor Eagle got saddled with him would eventually have had to dump him off its back.

[Gimly]

It's impossible because:

1)No eagle, even Great Eye, can survive all that it would get for getting even close to Mordor, not to mention flying over it. As it was said at the meeting in Rivendell (not a quote though)- No one can beat Sauron at his own land.

2)The eagles won't agree to do such, only, maybe, if Radagast the Brown would ask them to. And to contact him and ask for his help would take the time they didn't have.

3)There would be no secrets with the eagles. Sauron's Eye would easily locate them, and then, BOOM! Middle Earth is conquered by the dark powers!

4)It would ruin the greatest story ever written!

[andustar]

damn, there was a whole HOF over at TOR.N about this a while ago... If I could just find it... hang on a second... if anyone wants to help me find it go here (http://www.theonering.net/barlimans/hall.html) please... thanks. It may have been just part of a general Tolkien Q&A... but I swear they had a long discussion about it. If you can bear chat logs, that is, which I have only been able to tolerate after getting into mbs :)

[andustar]

okay, I found it, but as it's not the whole log, should I post it here? attach it? or what?

.... I'll... post it here. but WARNING it's going to be long, and confusing. Sorry people, but it IS a chat log. People talk in half-sentances or by the time they've finished typing no one knows what they're talking about :)

here goes. My next post then. The URL for the chat log is
http://www.theonering.net/barlimans/hall_logs/012200.html
and incidentaly, I only went to two of these chat things (under another name, I didn't have andustar then!) and this is the one I met Tater at who invited me to entmoot :) so this has historic significance, people! I would never have heard of entmoot otherwise!

[andustar]

Here it is. And I still swear there was a WHOLE HOF on this, but I never went to it... oh well, good luck finding it.

here it is. I warned you.

<Elendil_> Tom Bombadil and Gwahir could've done it!!!
<Gandalf> very nice point pallando!
<Pallando> thanks
<Gandalf> maybe
<Eledhwen> get rid of the ring?
<Gandalf> maybe they wouldnt though
<Gandalf> they could have but just wouldnt
<Elendil_> Wouldn't yes
<Eledhwen> Bombadil didn't care
<Gandalf> i dont think they would
<Elendil_> but they had the ability
<Gandalf> yes
<Gandalf> i believe so
<Eledhwen> rings were not important to him
<Elendil_> between them
<Gandalf> but they were following the rules in gwaihirs case
<Gandalf> tom i think just didnt care
<Elendil_> I still think it's crazy Gwahir wasn't used for the quest
<Eledhwen> rules?
<Gandalf> there is a reason elendil
<cirdan> but how much did the maiar remember when they came to ME, pallando? tolkein said there was much they had to relearn
<Gandalf> you have to read between the lines to see it though
<Pallando> good point
<Gandalf> but gwaihir wouldnt have done it
<Eledhwen> how much did the ring concern animals and birds?
<Elendil_> I know. I was merely musing upon their ability
<Gandalf> yeah
<Gandalf> ive thought that before elendil
<Palpatine> if they had used Gwaihir Sauron would have known when and where they were coming
<Elendil_> Woudln't have made for such a good story anyhoo!!
<Gandalf> yeah
<Palpatine> remember the idea was to travel in secret
<cirdan> the eagles are special
<Gandalf> but tolkien even covered that little detail
<Gandalf> tolkien was amazing
<Pallando> But let's go simplistic style. You could tell Gandalf knew what was going to happen to Bilbo.
<Frode> Elendil: I think that would 'lessen' the free peoples, besides Gwaihir might have been spotted and killed by Sauron
<Pallando> In the Hobbit.
<Elendil_> Yes, true Ford
<Elendil_> Frode I mean
<Palpatine> Frode: or at least have given them away
<Gandalf> maybe
<Frode> nothing could avoid detection by Sauron I think
<Gandalf> but at that time the nazgul were on horses...no match for the eagles
<Palpatine> Gwaihir had already played his part by saving Gandalf
<Frode> in the end
<Elendil_> Ok, lets go further back...
<Gandalf> he could have taken frodo right to mt. doom and done it
<Gandalf> that easy
<Elendil_> now, I haven't read The Hobbit in ages, but/...
<Gandalf> but he would have done it
<Eledhwen> but boring!
<Gandalf> wouldnt
<Palpatine> Gan: I don't think it would have worked
<Frode> I mean that Sauron would have killed Gwaihir personally
<Gandalf> i know it wouldnt have
<Elendil_> Why DID Gan choose Bilbo???
<Eledhwen> how, Frode?
<Gandalf> he didnt elendil
<Gandalf> the ring did
<Pallando> my point above
<Frode> Eledwhen: when he can errupt volcanoes and direct the weather I think this is a small feat
<Eledhwen> Doesn't Elendil mean when he banged on Bilbo's door?
<Pallando> But Gandalf chose Bilbo for the quest
<Elendil_> Yes, but - that can be said of the entire scenario!
<Palpatine> because he liked Hobbits. he had more faith in them than all of Middle Earth
<Palpatine> he knew they were made of strong stuff
<Elendil_> Yes Eled!
<Eledhwen> where does he erupt volcanoes?
<Gandalf> on the eagles thing: the eagles were also known as the "eagles of manwe"
<Gandalf> manwe wouldnt have allowed
<Eledhwen> or direct weather?
<Gandalf> the ring was left up to men
<Frode> Eledwhen: the great signal
<Gandalf> the valar had already sent aid via the istari
<Eledhwen> now I'm lost!
<Gandalf> thats all they would get


and you shoulf thank me for putting all the [b] tags in! ;)

actually, on reading it over again, I can promise you there was another, more serious one... damn, where is it?

[Michael Martinez]

There are a lot of assumptions and erroneous statements in that exchange.

[IronParrot]

Heh, I actually started this thread as a joke... but hey, the Eagles DO appear pretty conveniently sometimes, don't they?

[Kirinki54]

Well Iron Eagle... Sorry, Iron Parrot... it might have been a joke, but the issue is as interesting as many other WHAT-IFs...

I think another reason might have been that the eagles had a special bond to Manwe. And the Valar had chosen (or been imposed by Eru Iluvatar) the Istari as their strategy for interfering with the Sauron problem. Having the eagles giving to much direct help might have been too much of a deus ex machina.

[Michael Martinez]

Kirinki54, that was very well put.

[Kevin McIntyre]

of course Tolkien has been called the king of



deus ex machina. However this goes along with his view that God (Eru) does play a part in the matters of the world.

______________________________________________
"Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that maybe an encouraging thought."

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Kevin McIntyre
of course Tolkien has been called the king of deus ex machina. However this goes along with his view that God (Eru) does play a part in the matters of the world.

Was Tolkien called that? Would be interesting to know by whom?

Anyway I am certain you are right. I have often pondered that the existence of the Hobbits and their keeping of the Ring was some of Eru´s mayor trump cards.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Michael Martinez
Kirinki54, that was very well put.

Why thank you, Elven Loremaster! :)

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally posted by Kirinki54


Was Tolkien called that? Would be interesting to know by whom?

Anyway I am certain you are right. I have often pondered that the existence of the Hobbits and their keeping of the Ring was some of Eru´s mayor trump cards.

not sure were I read that, but it was a criticism and not a compliment.

[Michael Martinez]

Tolkien was very aware of his use of deus ex machina devices, such as the eagles. He felt the eagles should not be used more than he did use them precisely for that reason. I don't know if he has been called the king of DEM but it is certainly an apt description of some of his literary style. I see how it could be used as both an insult and a compliment.

Fortuitous events and encounters are a staple of the Tolkien literary diet. That doesn't mean they are necessarily bad, but some people will appreciate them better than others.

[Kevin McIntyre]

I agree Michael. I think Tolkien used DEM very judicously.

[Thorongil]

Oh if only Federal Express existed back in the thirties,

Just Imagine........

The Truck pulls up to Oroduin, Saurons in the shower, and shouts down ,
"Just leave it on the step"

The Ring rolls out of the package, teeters on the Edge of the Cracks of Doom and then rolls in,

Next scene Sauron gets to the Office and says to Witchy

"You wouldn't believe the morning ive had.... Oh Sh....."

[Ñólendil]

You know, I think afterall the whole 'The Fellowship should have used Eagles to get to Mordor' idea is about as logical as saying 'Sauron should have sent Dragons to the Shire instead of the Ringwraiths'.

[afro-elf]

Well since you said it, what if Sauron had sent Dragons to the Shire.

Would the Dragons in the Withered Heath have obeyed him.

Would they be able to carry the ring back with their claws being rather large?

Would they eat Frode and then regurgitate his remains with the ring?

Maybe the Nazgul would have rode the dragon's to the Shire.


If a fleet of Dragons came towards the Shire would the Eagles interfere then?

Maybe they would pick up Gandalf, Glorfindel, Elladan, Elrohir, Aragorn and four more to fight the Dragon riding Nazgul.


I jest here or do I? :)

[ChildofEru]

imho...
the use of Eagles was meant only to correct mistakes made and other unexpected events. Saruman became a servant of Sauron, captured Gandalf, Eagles came. (true Radagast helped in this but he wasn't the one who flew up there.) Im most likly wrong. but that is my theroy

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
You know, I think afterall the whole 'The Fellowship should have used Eagles to get to Mordor' idea is about as logical as saying 'Sauron should have sent Dragons to the Shire instead of the Ringwraiths'.

Good point. Besides both sides were relying on secrecy and stealth. Both of them didn't want the other side to find out what they were doing. They could have taken the eagle express, and Sauron could have brought on the dragons. But the both of them would have known immediatly what the other was up about. Wars are only won and lost for that matter by unexpected strategies.

[Earenya]

My best friend suggested the same idea- At Rivendell, they should have decided to call up the Eagles. But of course, we'd have been denied such wonderful stories...

[Laurelyn]

Aye, but if the eagles had flown Frodo to Mount Doom, would it not be posssible for them to be felled by some orc-arrow? Or did I miss something about them that would make that impossible?

The Eagle bearing Frodo in this Alternate Universe wouldn't have felt the weight of the Ring, though. Sam didn't when he carried Frodo, so why should the Eagle?

[Comic Book Guy]

Aye, but if the eagles had flown Frodo to Mount Doom, would it not be posssible for them to be felled by some orc-arrow? Or did I miss something about them that would make that impossible?

The Eagle bearing Frodo in this Alternate Universe wouldn't have felt the weight of the Ring, though. Sam didn't when he carried Frodo, so why should the Eagle?

The possibility of an Arrow striking a speeding Eagle hundreds of feet in the air is practically Zero. The Lord of the Rings is not based in an alternate universe, it is a history of this world, this has been touched in another thread elsewhere.

[markedel]

I think it has more to do with eagles being divine intervention-intervention that was only limited in scope by decree.

[Menelvagor]

I agree with all of your main points, but there's one thing I don't understand here. Why would Sauron be immediately aware of their tactics if they used the eagles? I would think that would be an unexpected strategy.

[olsonm]

The Eagles would be hard to miss! Besides, Sauron had a palantir.

[Menelvagor]

Well I think the eagles were pretty good at not being noticed, but I forgot about the palantir. Thanks Olsonm.:)

[Arathorn]

My take is that Olorin found out from Bilbo's and Frodo's actions how relatively resistant they were to the One Ring's effects and, of course, they already bore it.

Also it might have been less risky for a hobbit to bear it. Imagine if a great eagle were used and suddenly it went baddy on you and attacked. That would not only bring havoc to the allies but would have alerted Sauron at the very least as well.

This is assuming, of course, that Manwe allowed any of his beloved to take on such a task. He already sent Olorin, didn't he?

In Sauron's case, I think it would be like looking for a moving needle in a haystack. Every once in a while he gets to see the needle blinking but the needle also knows that it's been seen and quickly hides.

[olsonm]

Thanks for the thanks Menelvagor!:)
I think with a palantir Sauron would notice even a single eagle with Frodo on it and would have felt the Ring. Maybe if the eagle pulled a kamakazi (w/Frodo:( ) it might have succeded. But as others have pointed out, an eagle would be unlikely to do that.

[Menelvagor]

Thanks for the thanks for the thanks Olsonm! (sheesh, this could go on for a while...)

I am of the gerneral opinion that ChildofEru posted, that question had just been bugging me.

Feel free to ignore me, it's late and I'm half asleep, I porbably won't notice.

[olsonm]

Whether on foot or on air secrecy was a given. Frodo fell into the hands of the orcs and this was reported to Sauron. The fool! He knew Frodo was in Mordor but it never occured to him that he had the Ring. He assumed Frodo was a spy. If, however, he should happen to have noticed an eagle(he knew what they were)flying into Mordor he might have put 2 and 2 together.
Objections?

P.S. I would never ignore a fellow Entmootineer!:)

[Arathorn]

No objections.

I would like to add that seeing Pippin and later Aragorn on the live Isengard channel was the perfect smoke-screen. Seeing Isengard fall, then seeing his Captain fall in the Pelanor gave him the jitters.

Also, assuming Smeagol was also a hobbit, it would look like only hobbits and men were stupid enough to bear the ring from Sauron's POV. When Frodo was captured and the ring was not found on him, it was reported that an elf was still loose. It might have been less likely for him to think of that elf (Sam in actuality) as having the ring.

(Oh boy, I no longer rhyme)

[olsonm]

Yeah, Arathorn.
I always loved the way all the verious threads of the story came together. Perfection.

[Laurelyn]

Originally posted by olsonm

I always loved the way all the verious threads of the story came together. Perfection.
*Nods head* True . . .
Originally Posted by Comic Book GuyThe Lord of the Rings is not based in an alternate universe, it is a history of this world, this has been touched in another thread elsewhere.
Unfortunately for newbie-hating folk such as yourself, CBG, it has never occured to me that I should search the threads for something under a completely different topic as what I'm posting on before I add my own thoughts to another thread.
I see your point about the arrow having zip chance of hitting the Eagle. Sorry, I'm just in the sixth grade, I haven't studied physics or whatever, I don't know the textbook back-to-front. However, I get it once you point it out. ;) But what does that have to do with an AU?
Olsonm: If the Eagle carrying Frodo went down, then yes, Frodo would also go down. Wouldn't that kinda end a lot of the mission, since he's the Ringbearer?

[Nibs]

An eagle or two flying toward Mordor would have caused quite a hubbub, I'd think. Sauron would realize something was awry, somehow.

The Eagles were under Manwe himself, and he sends them only when he sees fit. Well, I think we can assume that, since it's not directly mentioned. The Silmarillion didn't mention whether or not the Valar were cognizant of the predicament Middle-Earth was in, but I think they were, especially Manwe.

In other words, I think it makes perfect sense that the Eagles weren't sent... oh, and there would have only been maybe one book. Not cool. Uncool, even.

[Comic Book Guy]

But what does that have to do with an AU?

I was correcting a previous post in which you said...

The Eagle bearing Frodo in this Alternate Universe wouldn't have felt the weight of the Ring, though. Sam didn't when he carried Frodo, so why should the Eagle?

I'm becoming skeptical about cynicism.

[Earniel]

A thought just struck me (auw) and I'll probably be branded as an heretic for this. But did it never cross your mind that Tolkien just didn't want to use the eagles because it would be cheap? Or that perhaps he decided to draw a paralel to the Hobbit where the eagles came soaring in at the end just to save the day? *hides quickly under her computer*

[Nibs]

Actually, that's been alluded to several times... it would have made for a quick, rather uneventful story. However, I think there are plenty of good reasons for not having the Eagles just swoop them to Orodruin, as aforementioned.

[Menelvagor]

Yes, I think the eagles, like the istari, were just here to help in direst (is that even a word?) need and were not supposed to intervene unless absolutely necessary.

[IronParrot]

Maybe they were afraid the Eagles would be lured by the power of the Ring and try to seize it themselves.

[Laurelyn]

. . .Eagle bearing Frodo in this Alternate Universe wouldn't have . . .
HEY!!! I don't remember typing that!!!
But anyways, if I really did say that, here's what I meant:
The Lord of the Rings is not based in an alternate universe, this is most definitely correct. But if you go and pull a "What-if?" then it's not really the same universe anymore, is it, because the What-If never happened in reality. Wouldn't that be true, or am I being an idiot newbie again?

[Nibs]

Even the most seasoned admins have a little newbie in them.

[Thrain]

Hey there I'm new on this thread.
I don't think the Eagles could have done it because it would have been even harder. Especially if the King of the Nazgul got on his flying horse thingy and started flying at them. You don't think sauron had a command of flying thing a ma bobs. He would have found them, killed them, Sauron gets ring everyone in world dead.
Also there would be no plot we would have a book the size of the size of the hobbit and noone would read it. I think that if they hadn't gone through all the adventure the races wouldn't have started forming bonds like the dwarves and elves and the hobbits with everyone else.
Later,
Thrain

[tolkienfan]

Here is an interesting idea I'd never considered.

http://www.tickld.com/x/this-guy-just-changed-the-way-we-see-lord-of-the-rings-mind-blown

It's an argument that Gandalf secretly planned all along for the Eagles to take them to Mordor, but the secret died with him in Moria. "Fly you fools" was a last-minute attempt to inform the Fellowship of his plan.

Clearly, the author wrote this argument based on the movies. It is Aragorn, not Gandalf who is hesitant to travel through Moria in the book. Also, I can't imagine why Gandalf wouldn't inform Aragorn at the very least of the real plan.

Can anyone point to more evidence for or against this theory based on material in the books or movies?

[Beren3000]

Here is an interesting idea I'd never considered.
http://www.tickld.com/x/this-guy-just-changed-the-way-we-see-lord-of-the-rings-mind-blown
...
Can anyone point to more evidence for or against this theory based on material in the books or movies?

It is indeed interesting, but your question has prompted me to look and I think I can provide a quote to refute it.

From The White Rider chapter (emphasis mine):


'What do you wish to know?' said Aragorn. 'All that has happened since we parted on the bridge would be a long tale. Will you not first give us news of the hobbits? Did you find them, and are they safe?'
'No, I did not find them,' said Gandalf. 'There was a darkness over the valleys of the Emyn Muil, and I did not know of their captivity, until the eagle told me.'
'The eagle!' said Legolas. 'I have seen an eagle high and far off: the last time was three days ago, above the Emy Muil.'
'Yes,' said Gandalf, 'that was Gwaihir the Windlord, who rescued me from Orthanc. I sent him before me to watch the River and gather tidings. His sight is keen, but he cannot see all that passes under hill and tree. Some things he has seen, and others I have seen myself. The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.'


So Gandalf sent Gwaihir to gather news of the Company and their fate while he stayed at Lothlorien. It seems to me, if his plan were to enlist the eagles to help, the logical step would have been to have Gwaihir fly him to the Company instead and reveal himself to them so that Gwaihir would be there and help them with the last stage of the journey. Instead, he only sent Gwaihir to "gather tidings". Moreover, he played "some part" in the Ring not being revealed to Sauron. I assume this means that he was the voice in Frodo's head that told him to take the Ring off. If he could influence things this way, it seems to me he would have chosen to reveal himself to Frodo so that Frodo wouldn't take any action that would put the Ring "beyond [Gandalf's] help".

[Lefty Scaevola]

I am confident that Sauron, who was fully aware of the Eagles, and more so, the innumerable flying creatures available to Rhadagst as spies, had stout air defenses available for Mordor, which would defeat flying animal incursions, and that it was not practical to penetrate his airpace with creatures armored only with feathers until after his power was destroyed.

[Alcuin]

You know, part of the reason might be the Mordor Special Mission Flying Corps (MSMFC). We don’t know a lot about them, but Tolkien did design an emblem for them (published in Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator). The Nazgûl were probably part of the MSMFC, but perhaps there were other units as well. Part of their mission might well have been to prevent the Eagles of the Misty Mountains, who were descendents of Manwë’s servant Thorondor (of the First Age), from spying out his territory.
http://zarkanya.net/Tolkien/pix/msmfc.gif

[Butterbeer]

Great "Nearly ideas" of History:



http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/funny/1/funny-two-legged-horse-smiley-emoticon.gif

With Two legs, i'll get there in half the time!

[Nerwen]

Whoever was picked to carry The Ring wouldn't be any more able to destroy it than Frodo or Isildur did. That's why Gollum is crucial to the story.

[Alcuin]

Whoever was picked to carry The Ring wouldn't be any more able to destroy it than Frodo or Isildur did. That's why Gollum is crucial to the story.That’s a very good point, Nerwen! I don’t believe I’ve ever seen anyone make that point before, and this is topic discussed with some regularity in many boards.

Welcome to Entmoot!

[tolkienfan]

Whoever was picked to carry The Ring wouldn't be any more able to destroy it than Frodo or Isildur did. That's why Gollum is crucial to the story.
True, but the Council couldn't have known that. I don't think Gollum was part of the plan, besides some vague feelings that he had "some part to play yet".

We had a thread awhile back about whether Eagles could be corrupted. I wonder whether the Council would have known the answer to that question?
http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=12633&highlight=eagles+corrupted