The two towers

[ArwenEvenstar]

What does the title mean? Something like Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith...?

[Legolas]

Minas Morgul and Orthank.
The book's plot is set in the area between these towers.

[Comic Book Guy]

The Title 'The Two Towers' refers to Minas Tirith and Minas Ithil (Morgul).

[Legolas]

Tirith and Morgul? Strange... In my version, it is said that "the book represents events which happened in the area between Minas Morgul and Orthank".

[galadriel]

I'm pretty sure it's Minas Morgul and Orthanc.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by galadriel
I'm pretty sure it's Minas Morgul and Orthanc.
*ditto*

[KGamgee]

Yep, Minas Morgul and Orthanc.

[Lightice]

Really? I always taught, that it was referring to Narchost and Carchost, the Fang Towers at Morannon...

[Comic Book Guy]

The Title does refer to Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith, firstly the name 'The Two Towers' fits in to the fact that the two towers are actually twins, some of the events take place near these towers and the orignal designs for the book (designed by Tolkien) clearly show Tirith and Morgul, It shows a white tower with a tree above it and to its right it shows a black tower.

[Ñólendil]

I think Tolkien changed his mind a bit about which towers the Two Towers applied to. But I know that in the final version of the jacket design, the two Towers depicted are indeed Minas Morgul and Orthanc. Minas Morgul has the Nine Rings illustrated on it, with a moon in a Ring above it and a 'Winged Nazgul', and Orthanc has a White Hand design above it. Minas Tirith would be little odd, don't you think? It doesn't appear in Volume II, Treason of Isengard ends with Pippin and Gandalf on their way to it.

[CardenIAntauraNauco]

I think it is Morgul and Tirith
In the Quenyan texts the title is
"I Atta Mindu " I = the, Atta = two, Mindu - this is towers in dual form. Meaning they have to be associated with one another. Their are two types of plural one for two unassociated objects and one fore related,the aforementioned "dual form".

So I hold with the The Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith belief.

[CardenIAntauraNauco]

but i think your right that their was some indesciveness on the part of Tolkien- I think he originally meant Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul but considering changed the meaning.

[Ñólendil]

Orthanc and Morgul are connected by the PalantÃ*ri, aren't they? I mean, there PalantÃ*r of Ithil at the time of the LotR resided in Barad-dûr, but it used to be in Ithil. And there were the Nazgûl going back and forth between the two during the book. Look at this way: the only towers seen in Book III include the tower in the Burg of the Hornburg, and Orthanc. The only towers seen in Book IV are the Towers of the Teeth on the Black Gate, Minas Morgul, and (briefly) the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Minas Tirith isn't seen at all.

We can all agree I'm sure that the tower in the Hornburg is out of the question, so we should have these options: Orthanc and Ungol, Orthanc and Morgul or the Towers of the Teeth. But 'Two Towers' was invented to link the two (really unrelated plot-wise) Books together. So I think we can rule out the towers on the Morannon, which only are seen in Book IV. So we have Orthanc and Ungol or Orthanc and Morgul. Orthanc and Morgul makes more sense to me.

Minas Tirith isn't in the Two Towers!

[CardenIAntauraNauco]

that sounds right; it would make sense for the comparison to be that of the palantir

[KGamgee]

Look at the VERY VERY VERY end of book one, and it will mention Minas Morgul and Orthanc.

[Michael Martinez]

Tolkien proposed the title in Letter 140 (written on August 17, 1953):

"The Fellowship of the Ring will do, I think; it fits well with the fact that the last chapter of the Volume is The Breaking of the Fellowship. The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title over the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous -- it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol. On reflection I prefer fo Vol. III The War of the Ring, since it gets in the Ring again; and also is more non-committal, and gives less hint about the turn of the story: the chapter titles have been chosen also to give away as little as possible in advance. But I am not set in my choice."

[Gimly]

I'm just thinking, if the title is supposed to link between the books then It's surely not Orthanc, since it's not in the fourth book.

[ArwenEvenstar]

well thanks for the help even if we are still undecided

[FrodoFriend]

hey, if tolkien didn't know himself, how is anyone else supposed to? :cool:

[TinuvielChild]

yeah, what KGamgee said: at the EXTREME END of my copy of FotR, it says:

Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring.
The second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of Minas Morgul that guards the secret entrance to Mordor

guess that about settles it, huh?:)

[olsonm]

The reason it's confusing is simple. It's the word dominated. Orthanc clearly dominates Book III. Everything in the story revolves around it. That's why Tolkien thought of calling B-III 'The Treason of Isengard'. Book IV, however, is not dominated by any one focal point. Tolkien thought of calling B-IV 'The Ring Goes East'. The reason they chose Minas Morgul is because it means 'Tower of Sorcery', so it connects with Two TOWERS. It's still a stretch to say that it dominates the story more than any other part (Dead Marshes, Henneth Annun, the Stairs, Shelob's Lair, etc.).

[Khamûl]

I'm with Orthanc and Minas Morgul.

[Durin]

I'm pretty sure it's Orthanc and Minas Morgul.

[The White Rider]

Viva de la Orthanc et la Minas Morgul!!

[Brimvalir]

How many different towers are there in Lord of the Rings??? - add any if I miss any :D

1. Minas Tirith
2. Minas Morgul
3. Orthanc
4. The Golden Hall

[Radagast The Brown]

I'm almost sure that the two towers are Minas Morgul and Orthanc... and I have nothing to add Brimvalir.

[Earniel]

Minas Morgul and Orthanc? Really? Drat, I was always convinced it was Orthanc and Minas Tirith! Well, I thought there's all the action... Guess not then...

[bropous]

I also thought it was the tower at Cirith Ungol and Orthanc.

[Pailan]

I have always thought it was Orthanc and Barad-dur. The two principle locations of the forces trying to obtain the ring. But what the heck, there are enough towers to pick your own set and be right enough. ;)

[BeardofPants]

Tolkien probably changed his focus while writing the book: but he explicitly said that it referred to both Orthanc, and Minas Morgul. This makes much more sense, because TT shifts focus alternately from Saruman, to Sauron.

[Ñólendil]

The Golden Hall isn't a tower Brimvalir. As I said above the only towers seen in The Two Towers are the tower in the Burg of the Hornburg, Orthanc, the Towers of the Teeth, Minas Morgul and (very briefly) the Tower of Cirith Ungol.

[Christiana]

Orthanc&MMorgul l MT&MM
16 l 6
l







So there!:D :D :D :D

[Snowdog]

My opinion and what I always thought since the first time I read the books was the Two Towers of Barad-Dur & Orthanc. Of course the defining battle with Sarumann happens and the Ents trash the place except Orthanc, and Strider battles Sauron via the Palantir, which is a defining moment that turns the coming battle and in my opinion changes Strider to Aragorn.

[Christiana]

Aragorn looks into the Pal. in ROTK:rolleyes:

[cassiopeia]

In the letters Tolkien is undecided, so there is no right or wrong answer, in my opinion. If I were to guess, I would say Orthanc and Barad-Dur because Saruman and Sauron are the enemy: everything depends in some way on them. Plus the book (LOTR) was named after the enemy, so there is no reason why books 3 and 4 not refer to evil places.

[Snowdog]

Well, in the 8 readings I have done of the Lord Of The Rings since 1976, it all flows together with me as one big book, so go ahead and roll your eyes. :D :p :cool:
Guess I should read it again and note where the 'Book1, Book2, etc. pages are this time. :D

[Nienna Grey]

My understanding is that the two towers in question are Orthanc and Minus Morgul.

I think the TT movie trailer refers to them as being Orthanc and Barad-dur though but that's just for the purposes of the movie.

[Samwise Gamgee]

Fraid I hav 2 disagree, Grey. I don't think it is just for the purposes of the film. From the good guys point of view in the book there are two towers to fear ultimately, Orthanc & Barad-Dur. I no Sam&Frodo are scared silly when they see the Nazgul leaving MMorgul, but ultimately the real tower to fear is Barad Dur. Furthermore, these two make an alliance (fragile, given, but nonetheless an alliance), forming 'Two Towers' to be feared by the good guys. The reason I refer so often (well-twice) to the good guys is that it is always from their viewpoint we get the narrative, so it is fair to assume that the titles should come from their view.
Also, sum1 sed B-D & Orthanc cuz of the pal, well Denethor had 1 too, so that seems illogical.
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[Snowdog]

Most definitly not 'just' for the film. Like I said, my mind interpreted it as Barad Dur and Orthanc when I first read it in 1976.... WAY before even the cartoons and the release of the Silmarillion (not that those things have ant bearing on the discussion). My images will always be supreme and the movie just someone elses vision and adaptation of the Books.

[BeardofPants]

Lucky!

I've been reading 'em for 8 years or so, but my imagination is not that great when it comes to visualising characters and places, so I'll probably be doomed to a lifetime of imagining Orlando Bloom nancing around as Legolas. Ergh. :mad:

[Christiana]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Lucky!
I'll probably be doomed to a lifetime of imagining Orlando Bloom nancing around as Legolas. Ergh. :mad:

Hey, r u dissing Legolas?

[BeardofPants]

No. Read it carefully. I'm dissing "Orli". What are you going to do? Hurt me? :p Oooh... Pity I live all the way over here.... ;)

[Samwise Gamgee]

Ok, jus quickly bout t film- Orlando Bloom is awesum! Did you not see his facial expressions first when Gandalf sed 'It is a fell demon of the ancient world... A BALRRRRRRROG!' He looked like he'd dun a wee elf-present in his pants. And then, when the BIg G passes to shadow, his facial expression. He actually looks as tho he is struggling to find sufficient oxygen in the air (I dunno if that fits in w/elf physiology, don't know of the Prof sayin air was ne diffrent in M.E.), phenom!
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[Christiana]

Thats naughty Sammie.*shakes finger*;)

[Aragorn_iz_cool]

I think orthendoc and burendur. You know some Lunitics want to change the title of the movie becouse of 9/11?:rolleyes: :mad:

[cassiopeia]

Umm do you mean Orthanc and Barad-dur? See the thread called Interesting about the petiton.

[entss89]

I CANT HELP YOU THERE BECAUSE I DONT EVEN KNOW.

[markedel]

I always favored the orthanc/cirith ungol party!

[SlowBeam]

Click Here or Copy the one Below (http://www.users.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/2towers.htm)
http://www.users.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/2towers.htm

See the above link which was posted by a user on a different thread (same subject).

I was always of the opinion reading the novels that the Two Towers refered to Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul because they were originally the Tower of the Moon and the Tower of the Setting Sun.

There is definitely that note at the end of Fellowship indicating Orthanc and Morgul, and upon reflection that makes the most sense in terms of the plot.

The work is so rich, it should really be called the four towers. Orthanc, Minias Tirith, Minas Morgul, and Barad-Dur.:)

[Caleb]

It refers to Barad-dur and Orthanc because Peter Jackson says so on the Two toweres preview on the fellowship of the ring DVD. He said clearly that in LOTR that the two towers refer to Barad-dur and Orthanc.

[Comic Book Guy]

It refers to Barad-dur and Orthanc because Peter Jackson says so on the Two toweres preview on the fellowship of the ring DVD. He said clearly that in LOTR that the two towers refer to Barad-dur and Orthanc.

Peter Jackson is not Tolkien, his words mean nothing.

[Cirdan]

It will always be Isengard (Orthanc) and Cirith Ungol for me because those are the paths of the plots of books 3 and 4. Barad Dur is only mentioned as it is throughout the story as saron makes his disembodoed presence known. The Tower appears only because Sauron can't.

[Agburanar]

Orthanc and Minas Tirith. That's where most of the action revolves and also where the two palantiri seen in the books are kept.

[Radagast The Brown]

It refers to Minas Morgul and Orthank. it's written in my book in a letter Tolkien send to another writer.

[Grey_Wolf]

I think the title refers to Minas Tirith and The Dark Tower of Mordor.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy
Peter Jackson is not Tolkien, his words mean nothing.

Incorrect. He made the films. His words mean lots, whether you like it or not. Doesn't mean you have to believe them, just that lots of other people will.

I always thought it was Orthanc and Barad-dur. Minas Morgul isn't really a tower: a walled city like Minas Tirith. The driving force of Books 3&4 is the politics played out between Saruman and Sauron via the Palantir.

D.

[Radagast The Brown]

Incorrect. He made the films. His words mean lots, whether you like it or not. Doesn't mean you have to believe them, just that lots of other people will.He is correct. Peter Jackson did the movie, but didn't write the book. The writer is the only person who could say what the title is. It's not right to say that because lots of people believe of something it is right.
I always thought it was Orthanc and Barad-dur. Minas Morgul isn't really a tower: a walled city like Minas Tirith. The driving force of Books 3&4 is the politics played out between Saruman and Sauron via the Palantir.Minas Morgul was a city behind walls but in the middle of it there was a tower. It called Minas Morgul - The dark turret. Turret is a small tower. Like Minas Tirith.

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown

He is correct. Peter Jackson did the movie, but didn't write the book. The writer is the only person who could say what the title is. It's not right to say that because lots of people believe of something it is right. Well said Radagast.

[olsonm]

PJ was talking about which Two Towers are being refered to in his movie. He can't be wrong about that.

As for the book, the title can refer to any two towers you want it to. It's just a title the publisher (with Tolkien's acceptance) slapped on the book so they wouldn't have to call it Lord of the Rings: Part II.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Incorrect. He made the films. His words mean lots, whether you like it or not. Doesn't mean you have to believe them, just that lots of other people will.

Radagast said it well, but just because PJ says that the two towers are Orthanc and Barad-dur doesn't mean that is true. This is the book forum, PJ is irrelevent here. What Tolkien has to say is what matters.

I think someone has said this, but I saw on the cover of TTT a sketch drawn of Orthanc and Minas Morgul.

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by cass
I think someone has said this, but I saw on the cover of TTT a sketch drawn of Orthanc and Minas Morgul.I think so too. I'm almost sure.

[Christiana]

yep.i used to have the same book,until it fell apart from so much reading.

[Starr Polish]

In "Letters", Tolkien first says he chose the name "The Two Towers" because it is so ambiguous and could relate to many things. Later, though, he says he isn't pleased with the title at all, because it is too ambiguos. According to that letter (and I'm too lazy to go get the book and look up the number) the two towers are Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.

[Radagast The Brown]

I think you're wrong, though I can't be sure. Cirith Ungol? well, it's near Minas Morgul. :rolleyes: But was that a tower/turret? I can't remeber. I didn't read tolkien awhile... (forgive me...)

[Agburanar]

This is becoming a movie question, but if Tolkien said (and he did) that it refers to Orthanc and Minas Morgul and PJ says something dofferent it just shows how much research he's done. Do not believe the word of a fool... (unless it's Shakespearian)

[samwise909]

It is the alliance between Orthanc and Baradur. I believe.
Do you?

-Sam-

[Cirdan]

Orthanc has fallen under the power of Mordor via the palantir. Remember, Saruman was the head of the council of wizards and helped to drive "the necromancer" from Dol Guldur. He was corrupted by Sauron because his hubris led him to believe he could engage Sauron sucessfully.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by Agburanar
This is becoming a movie question, but if Tolkien said (and he did) that it refers to Orthanc and Minas Morgul and PJ says something dofferent it just shows how much research he's done. Do not believe the word of a fool... (unless it's Shakespearian) Tolkien also said it was Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. And Minas Tirith and Barad-dur. He never really figured it out because the title has nothing to do with the book. PJ is refering to the the towers in his movie. He can't be wrong about that. And yes, he's done quite a bit of research.

[Radagast The Brown]

I think it's Orthank and Minas Morgul. still. prove it's not!!! :eek:

[olsonm]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I think it's Orthank and Minas Morgul. still. prove it's not!!! :eek: That's just it. It can't be 'proved' either way because Tolkien himself was unsure. He changed his mind several times. I think it's alright to choose any towers you would like.

[Blackboar]

Its says in the preview to TTT in the extended version of LotR!|!

[BeardofPants]

So? This is the book forum, BB. :rolleyes:

[Wayfarer]

Well, book three is 'the treaon of isengard' i.e. Orthanc. And book five is centered around the towers of morgul and ungol

[Radagast The Brown]

Orthank and Barad-dur, that's what they said in the movie. (I don't think it's right, and I don't think that the movie can tell who are the right towers).

Wayfarer could be right... it sounds like Orthank and Minas Morgul...

[Curunír]

Why can't it be Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul? I always thought that... :confused:

[Entlover]

This is a book comment, although it happened cause I went to (the movie):
I recommended the Two Towers to the garage attendant - just across the street from where several hundred people were going to (the movie), and he asked if it was about Sept 11. I guess not everyone is tuned in to Tolkien. It surprised me.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Oh, yeah, I found a link a while ago to a petition circling where people were asking PJ to change the name of TTT, because it was obviously an attempt to get rich off of September 11th. I don't remember the exact number, but there were a LOT of signatures.

[Arathorn]

I remember that petition. Most of those who signed actually just wanted to yell at and diss the guy who started the petition for being so stupid. I think most computer literate people are also Tolkien-fans. I'm not sure if he started it as a joke, though.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by CurunÃ*r
Why can't it be Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul? I always thought that... :confused:

Because Minas Tirith doesn't technically come into the story until Return of the King.

[Elf Girl]

It says in the Letters that the towers were Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
It says in the Letters that the towers were Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.

While it *does* mention that, if you actually look further, you will see that even Tolkien can't decide:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
"The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 & 4; and can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol (1)." [Letter #140]

And in the footnote to the above (1):

"In a subsequent letter to Ranyer Unwin (#143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are 'Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of The Two Towers (see #151) the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-horned (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name, Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon (FotR p. 257). Between the two towers a Nazgul flies."

"I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading." [Letter #143]

From here. (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6205&perpage=20&pagenumber=1)

[Artanis]

Hm, BoP you beat me. :)

[BeardofPants]

:p

[Laurelyn]

Originally posted by CardenIAntauraNauco
I think it is Morgul and Tirith
In the Quenyan texts the title is
"I Atta Mindu " I = the, Atta = two, Mindu - this is towers in dual form. Meaning they have to be associated with one another. Their are two types of plural one for two unassociated objects and one fore related,the aforementioned "dual form".

So I hold with the The Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith belief.
Couldn't you just say "Mindu" and have the dual form hold the number in place?

[markedel]

But Cirith Ungol and Orthanc are linked too-Numenorian watchtowers abandoned and seized by the Enemy.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

What are the dates of those letters?

It sounds to me like Tolkien is still trying to persuade them to change the title in those letters. Afterall, why would Tolkien be writing those kinds of letters to his publisher after he had supplied them with the paragraph and cover art for the book and it had already been published?

It seems like there is an initial debate over the title itself, and then a subsequent debate over which towers, which would fit because at some point Unwin would have asked for an illustration which would have resulted in a debate over which towers to depict.

If those letters pre-date the publication then they need to be viewed in light of the fact that Tolkien is trying to get the title changed (by pointing out it's ambiguity) and if they predate the paragraph, then we know he came to a decision after they were written.

He also attempted to have the third book entitled The War of the Ring, because he felt The Return of the King gave too much away. He lost that battle also.

[Nurvingiel]

The Lord of the Rings was origionally one book, and Tolkien reluctantly split them into three on the urgings of the publishers. I don't think he was 100% sure of which towers either.