How were Gandalf and Frodo going to enter Mordor?

[bmilder]

If Gandalf hadn't fallen to the Balrog in Moria and the Quest had gone as planned, what was his method for getting into Mordor? Did he even have a plan? Would he go through Cirith Ungol and hope Shelob wasn't noticing?

[Turambar6]

I think Gandalf didn't know what he was going to do, he was probably making it up as he went along.

[Inoldonil]

I don't know about making things up, but I agree Gandalf probably had not planned anything for sure beyond Lothlórien. I can't imagine what way they could have taken though.

I have a suspicion the River Poros when it met the Shadowy Mountains plunged underneath and entered some sort of a cave. But even it had led to the other side, that's much too far south.

[webwizard333]

I bet Gandalf would have made quick work of Shelob. He took out that balrog. Shelob wouldn't have stood a chance. (Gandalf probably has held a grudge against giant spiders since the Ungliant/Melkor/Two Trees incident)

[brownjenkins]

How about the eagles... they seemed to get to Mount Doom quick enough when it was rescue time...

[Shanamir Duntak]

They eagles wouldnt have make it with the "increasing" weight of the ring when nearing Mount Doom.

[SauronDL]

I agree with Wizard, he probably would have taken Cirith Ungol and blew away Shelob. But he definitely wouldn't have had the whole thing planned. He would have had to consider all situations that could affect their succession.

[Shanamir Duntak]

I don't think so.

Gandalf is smarter than that. He knows that you can't plan everything from the start. You have to adjust to the unpredictable flow of time. No one can't accuratly state what everything will be. Altought he must had have a preference for a particular path.

[Finduilas]

I doubt he would have chosen Cirith Ungol, given his reaction when Faramir told them that piece of news, but who knows.

[Inoldonil]

Er, you know, he died slaying the Balrog. I don't think he would have made quick work of her. Gandalf The White probably could have made her run away and hide much sooner than Sam Gamgee, but I don't think he could have had her writhing on the floor with a snap of his fingers.

Eagles wouldn't work either. Besides the inconvenience of Nine Walkers flying to Mordor, it's supposed to be a secret journey. Put your Nine Walkers the Eye are looking for in Eagles' talons, and their goners for sure. There's all sorts of things that could go wrong. I'm not even sure they'd get pass the Woodmen in Mirkwood. Don't like sheep-killers, they don't.

I mean really, Aragorn and Gandalf weren't even willing to walk on the other side of the mountains because it was so infested with spies and more dangerous enemies. Flying is worse.

[Xivigg]

Gandalf wouldn't have fight Shelob

She's too near Sauron and he would have feal it and then send his nine to recover the ring

[webwizard333]

If Sam could beat Shelob I'm quite confident that the Fellowship could have done it (either that or you'd see Gandalf holding a grudge "That was for the Two Trees!").

[Finduilas]

That was a good point about Sauron being more likely to notice them if Gandalf made it that close. This is implied in "The Ring Goes South".

[Inoldonil]

You know in response to my own comment about Gandalf The White, I don't think Shelob could have ever met him. She might have met Gandalf The Grey. The only way Gandalf would have led any part of the Fellowship into Mordor would be if all nine companions were still alive. If they had got through the horror of Moria, Gandalf with them. Then things would be more interesting between Gandalf and Shelob, assuming (which I doubt) that they would have taken the Pass of the Spider. But the Quest probably would have failed if Gandalf hadn't sacrificed himself. As much can be deduced from a couple of Tolkien's letters. The Wizards needed a boost.

I don't know that Sauron could sense Gandalf more than Frodo. Could you quote the passage Finduilas?

[Spock1]

They could take the M1 north. :lol:

[Inoldonil]

Hmmm, I guess bmilder already said that, didn't he? He was talking about Gandalf The Grey. I should pay more attention. :)

[Prince Faramir]

pott of p*ss, without doubt he could have beaten her easily, even though he was cloaked in grey the ease in which he could have killed shelob and quiestly is unquestionable. he did posses a ring of power, so i believe grey or white he would have whipped her!

[Inoldonil]

Narya didn't give its user any special bonuses in combat, except to strengthen quaking heart. The Ring of Fire kindled hope in those hearts of people who needed it, so that they could put aside the imaginations of darkness. It enhanced that ability of his that gave him his name in his youth: Olorin. I don't believe it gave him any sort of extra power in actual flame because this is nowhere suggested, and the power of Nenya is definitely metaphoric.

One of the things I like about Tolkien's powerful heroes is that they aren't invincible. Gandalf can't just blast a bunch of lightning from his fingertips when he feels like it to get rid of the bad guys. He can't just take a trip through Mirkwood and blast spiders out of his path, laughing all the way. Indeed, he and Bilbo were very reluctant to enter it at all on their returning journey, because of its peril.

Similarly, Tolkien's powerful evil creatures are rather sophisticated, and interesting. Shelob isn't just some big scary monster that will devour an army should it dare her lair. I don't doubt that if you send a large army through Cirith Ungol, she'd much sooner hide than attack. So If Gandalf, Sam and Frodo were walking through the dark in that pass (which would be very unlikely), I don't doubt Shelob would have a mind to sneak up on them, but flee if she knows she's bit off more than she could chew. Gandalf The Grey would have a time battling and it would be a battle. He would in his dire need reveal some of his inner power, and there would be much fire and light, but it would be a battle.

Gandalf would undoubtedly win, assuming Shelob didn't surprise him sooner than she did Sam and Frodo, and assuming before the battle began Gandalf was in good health. But I can't imagine him destroying her with ease and without fear, it just doesn't fit.

[Prince Faramir]

when he is fighting the balrog he says:

'you cannot pass, i am wielding the secret flame of ..... [forget the name of it, damn!] you cannot pass'
is this secret flame to do with the ring? and also if he wields the flame against shelob she would most probably die...


and we must not forget if he hadn't have fallen he would have escaped unharmed whilst breaking the balrogs sword, being mightier than a balrog AND therefore shelob - suggesting to me the grey gandalf would have made mincemeat out of her....

[Earendilyon]

Why do you say on ground of Gandalf defeating the Balrog that he would be mightier than Shelob?

[Elenna]

good question.....I don't get it?

Explanation, anyone?

Elenna ~

~Forgive the meek, find peace with those who ask too many questions, for only knowledge can destroy evil. ~

[Shanamir Duntak]

Well.. definetly NOT in the good thread.... :p

[webwizard333]

The Balrog is clearly stronger than Shelob.

[anduin]

Did someone hit the "New Topic" button instead of the "Add Reply" button??

[Elenna]

maybe... that would make more sence......maybe...

Elenna ~ lady of the Stars

[Inoldonil]

Do any of the other admin. know how to put topics inside another one? This obviously wasn't meant to stand on it's own.

Flame of Anor (or Anar) were his words. I don't think anyone has any clear idea what exactly he meant, but 'anor' was a name for the Sun. Definitely not anything having to do with Narya. I think it has some connexion with Arien, the Sun-maiden. The Silmarillion says she was of old one of the spirits of fire whom Melkor had not corrupted to his service. This seems to me to imply she is what the other Valaraucar would have been, had they never gone over to Melkor. It may be that Arien was a Maia of Varda (as Gandalf was), and so Gandalf's power of fire was unsullied and in opposition to that of the Balrog.

In December of last year I said to Michael Martinez: There is a part of the Silmarillion that indicates Arien is what Balrogs would have been had they never fallen to Melkor in the beginning. Is this passage to be trusted?

He answered: I think so, but everything in Tolkien can be questioned for one reason or another. I think Tolkien was playing with the Greek idea of primal elements at one point: fire, water, air, earth, and void. Melkor would have been the fire deity, as Manwe was for air, Ulmo was for water, and Aule was for earth. The void would have been their
origin. But if that was ever what he had in mind, he dropped it quick.

I definitely feel the Balrog of Moria and Gandalf The Grey were peers in power, they both died in their battle. If he hadn't fallen? He didn't fall out of exhaustion, the Balrog brought him down with his whip. Even if he hadn't, I would sooner call it a narrow escape than proof he was the better of the two.

I might say again here that there is no indication I know of (as always I could be wrong) that the Ring of Fire had anything to do with actual, elemental fire.

My memory's a bit hazy, I think I decided it's possible, but not for certain. Even so I don't understand how Narya is supposed to come into play with a battle between Gandalf and Shelob (which quite probably would have never happened).

[Elenna]

Concerning Arien.

She was to the best of my memory, A tender in the gardens of Yavanna. The tree of light, The Laurelin, I believe is what she tended, because she was not fearful of the fire and it did not harm her. So, when the Vala put the sun in the sky they chose Arien to guide the sun. Tilion is the mia chosen to guide the moon. This part of the Sil. captivated me! I loved it, soo cool.

Yes, I do believe that Anor is mentioned in reference to the sun. I would feel free to say I agree with you.

Elenna ~ Lady of the Stars

[easterlinge]

Maybe..... Arien is Gandalf's (Olorin's) sweetheart? His "old flame"?

;)


Gandalf: "I wield my girlfriend's flame...."

[Elenna]

I don't recall that! Are you serious?

Either way, Funny :lol:

Gandalf's old flame : Arien

Elenna ~ Lady of the Stars

[Imrahill]

Hello. Im new to this place. This is a test post.

[Inoldonil]

Elenna, small niggle, she tended the golden flowers in Vána's garden.

lol easterlinge!

Welcome Imrahil! Post looks okay ( :) ), hope you stay and enjoy the Moot.

[Elenna]

Oopps, Vana's, Yavanna'a ? ::shrug:: 8o

So many names, as I have said before, It can be difficult to keep track of them all. I am still in my first year of Tolkien as wel, so maybe time will help.

;0 ~ Thanks for the niggle

Welcome Imrahil! Are you really a prince?!

Elenna ~ Lady of the Stars

[Finmandos12]

I have returned!

[Elenna]

Were you lost in Mordor or perhaps the Old forest then...?


;) WB ~ I think?

Elenna ~ Lady of the Stars

[Finmandos12]

No, I don't think you were here when I used to be here. I used to be called Mandos, but I forgot my password. (Sigh)

[Elenna]

Ah, so sad. Back to a sapling then..rh? Sorry.

Yes, I am new here. But I really like it here. Lots of fun things to talk about and lots to learn.

Elenna ~ Lady of the Stars

[Gothmoga]

How then has the message from the mighty Melko becom diluted, here we are the creatures of the night, the true inheritors, skulking around the boards with names such as, Barrow Downs The prancing Pony!!!!! Death to the enemies of the darkness, visit them with Havoc and Fire, or number yourselves among the elves and Men The thieves of the world and stealers of our gift.

"Best wishes from Minas Morgul. THE only place to Holiday.."

[Finmandos12]

How disturbing.

[Darth Tater]

(inoldonil, it can't be done)

[Inoldonil]

Thanks for letting me know :)

[Imrahill]

Hello Elenna. Yes, Now I am a Prince, but Im reincarnated. In my prior lifetime, you knew me as the Captain of the Dwarfs. But, after a herioc death, Ive come back in a higher status, and on a mission by my King discuss the Master Tolkien and his storys, and not the politics of the land. *S* (Imrahill twirls his royal purple cape as he bows before those in the EntMoot.)

[Elenna]

Hello to you Imrahill! Good to see you.

:) I love the little smiley faces that are really smiley faces!

Ya know, that Prince Imrahill was one of my favorite characters. Even though he didn't have too big of a part in the war of the ring, He struck me with awe, I wish that there was more of him, and not that he was rounder! You know what I mean.

See ya later Prince,

Elenna ~ Lady of the Stars :rollin:

[Prince Faramir]

i started this all off, its meant to be in the post asking how frodo and gandalf would enter mordor, sorry...

and i stand by my point, gandals would have killed shelob quickly and relatively easily.

[bmilder]

Yeah, I've renamed this topic correctly, so hopefully confusion will stop now. I'm not sure, but I believe we will be able to merge the two topics together when we move to vBulletin.

[Elenna]

Hello Bmilder! I am a lil new here.

When are we moving to Vbulliten? Is there a specific reason why?


Elenna

[bmilder]

The move will probably occur sometime next month. Don't worry, all the posts will be imported to the new board, and we can manually transfer all your user information, so you'll hardly notice the change at all.

Check out this thread (http://pub2.ezboard.com/fbenjaminstolkienboardgeneralmessages.showMessage? topicID=979.topic) for more information. In a nutshell, we are doing it for more control over the board - notice the board is located at ezboard.com. With a VBulletin, it will be located on our own server at tolkientrail.com and we don't have to rely on any remote hosts.

[Elenna]

Looks Good! Now I am excited all over again.

I liked Entmoot the moment I saw it, and I hope to stay. I will follow wherever you go.


Elenna ~ Lady of the Stars

[Prince Faramir]

the links still be the same? or will we have to update our bookmarks?

also i hate it when people say:

"(which quite probably would have never happened)."

whats the point of a discussion forum if 'it probably would never have happened' we're debating and guessing here Inoldonil, shall i say that to every post when someone ponders what might have happend? write it off and forget it shall we? what a smashing board that would be then...

:|

[bmilder]

Depends what your bookmarks are set to. If they're set to the ezboard url, then yes, you will need to change it to the new url. However, if you're using one of the re-direction URLs - entmoot.cjb.net (http://entmoot.cjb.net) or www.entmoot.com (http://www.entmoot.com) for example - those will be pointed in the direction of the new board and you need not worry.

The move will probably be this week and it will be nearly seamless... all the posts will be imported and a good chunk of the members will be pre-registered for your convenience (as a guarantee you can keep your username).

[Ben]

Woohoo! I was able to successfully merge the two threads - so now everything makes sense. VBulletin Rules! :D

[ringbearer]

I don't think Mithrandir needed the Ring of Fire for his magic, but it concentrated his power. All of Gandalf's "magic" had something to do with fire...just my two cents!