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afro-elf
11-22-2001, 08:54 PM
elves that fade become "invisible" to the real world

BUT are faded elves visible to each other

are there communites of faded ones?

Lightice
11-23-2001, 09:37 AM
Isn't that "fading" symbolic? That they leave Middle Earth and their culture fades away from sight of mortals. Not that they actually would become invisible or shadowlike.
And yes, hello. I'm new on these forums. Looks more interesting than most of LOTR forums.

Sister Golden Hair
11-23-2001, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by afro-elf
elves that fade become "invisible" to the real world

BUT are faded elves visible to each other

are there communites of faded ones? I do not know if they are visible to each other, but I don't think they had communities. They were unhappy, and they wanted to be visible and would attempt to occupy other things. Not sure if Tolkien states it, but the Borrow Weights in LOTRs could have been such a thing.

Sister Golden Hair
11-23-2001, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Lightice
Isn't that "fading" symbolic? That they leave Middle Earth and their culture fades away from sight of mortals. Not that they actually would become invisible or shadowlike.
And yes, hello. I'm new on these forums. Looks more interesting than most of LOTR forums. No Lightice, the word fading is used literally. Our local scholar Inoldonil could probably explain it better, but the Elves were consumed from within by their spirits. That was the whole purpose of the rings was to ward off the effects of time. If they remained in Middle-earth, they would fade.

afro-elf
11-23-2001, 10:42 AM
well i'm thinking about the elves who still "flourished" in the early 4th age

the woodland realm and EAST lorien

they all lived in a REALM. so say by the 5th age did these faded REALMS exist unto them selves?

Ñólendil
11-23-2001, 05:44 PM
Welcome Lightice! Don't let them fool you with that 'scholar' business, I couldn't explain it any better than Sister Golden Hair.

Lightice
11-25-2001, 02:42 PM
Umm...I don't ever remember seeing any references into literal fading...where can they be found?
And wan't it so, that when elf dies, he/she rebirths at Immortal Lands, so if "faded" elf dies, is he still faded at Valinor?

Wayfarer
11-25-2001, 04:08 PM
Nope. The eventual result of fading was that the elf became disincarnate, basically a ghost. When the went to aman, they stayed in Mandos, as 'ghosts' until they were deemed worthy of reincarnation. Then they got a new body.

Ñólendil
11-25-2001, 04:29 PM
The best information on the subject Lightice can be found in an essay called Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, published in Part One of the History of the Silmarillion, in the History of Middle-earth (HoMe) series. It is Volume X and is called Morgoth's Ring.

I would not say that they were disincarnate Shannon. I mean: there were Elvish spirits who remained in Middle-earth after 'death', refusing the summons to Aman, these are really the disincarnates. Fades Elves just sort of faded away; their bodies became invisable to our eyes.

afro-elf
11-25-2001, 06:36 PM
but could the faded elves see each other

Ñólendil
11-26-2001, 01:08 AM
Yes. As much as one Ringwraith sees another without the aid of physical clothes.

Elvellon
11-30-2001, 09:11 AM
One of Tolkien early ideas was that the Fading started when the number of humans became greater that the number of elves. This is curious, and implies that the human numbers were starting to became greater that those of elves during the late Third Era.

Finmandos12
12-01-2001, 10:29 PM
One of Tolkien early ideas was that the Fading started when the number of humans became greater that the number of elves. This is curious, and implies that the human numbers were starting to became greater that those of elves during the late Third Era.

What's "curious" about that? There is no dispute that there were more men than elves by then.

Wayfarer
12-02-2001, 04:32 PM
Yes, anbd prolly before then.

Also, there are elves implied to have faded in the second and third ages. Daeron and Maglor (but do depressed minstrels count?)