elven bloodshed

[afro-elf]

besides the kinslaying did the elves ever war upon one another

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
besides the kinslaying did the elves ever war upon one another Not that I can think of. The sons of Feanor of course were always going at it with someone, and that little group was the cause of the Kinslaying. I know that there was strife between the Nandor and the Noldor over the Kinslaying as witnessed between Turgon and Eol. Then we have the battle between (agian those fine fellows) Feanor's sons and Dior in Doriath to take the Silmaril. I do not recall any major battles on a large scale of Elves against Elves.

[Kirinki54]

In later days I think the Elves were never divided in a hostile manner.

"All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad." The Sil 'Of the Rings of Power'

BTW I always found this passage to be one of very intrigueing and fantasy-evoking nature! One would love to know more details of these followers on each side of good and evil!:)

[afro-elf]

thanks guys

[Ñólendil]

Don't forget that there were three Kinslayings: Alqualondë, Doriath and the Havens of Sirion.

[afro-elf]

I am aware of the first can you elaborate on the other two


how many people involved?( in all 3)

[Wayfarer]

doriath = the sons of feanor killed dior, and a lot of other people in menegroth.

Sirion = same people attacked, threw elwen into the sea, and maedhros captured Elros and Elrond.

[afro-elf]

were the sons of feanor so feirce that none would stand against them?

didn't people of doraith and sirion try to defend themselves

or when you say sons of feanor do you include their followers also?

[Ñólendil]

He includes their followers. All the Kinslayings were battles.

I have no idea about the numbers. The Second Kinslaying was when the remaining six sons of Fëanáro (if you ask me) assailed Doriath with strength of war. This was after the death of Thingol and the flight of Melian, when Dior son of Lúthien was ruling there, he had refused to give up his Silmaril. So the sons of Faenor (Fëanor, as he is called in The Silmarillion) attacked Doriath and brought about it's ruin, even left two of Dior's three children alone in the woods to starve. Maedhros the Tall, eldest of the Sons, repented of this and searched long for them, but did not find them. Three of the Sons died in that battle: Celegorm the Fair, Curufin the Crafty and Caranthir the Dark. None the less, the inhabitants of Doriath were driven out, and found haven at the Mouths of Sirion, where also the refuges from Gondolin had come. In fact, that's pretty much where all the Free Peoples ended up, before the War of Wrath.

The third battle was once again over the Silmaril. Elwing, daughter of Dior, had it in her possession, and the remaining three sons of Faenor (whose names were Maedros, Maelor and Amros, if you ask me) took council with eachother, and decided to attack the Havens. It was in that battle that Elwing leaped into the Sea with her Silmaril, and was saved by Ulmo, she reached Earendil her husband, and with the Silmaril he made it to Valinor. In this last Kinslaying Amros perished, and Maelor and Maedros live on to steal the last two Silmarilli from Eonwë after the War of Wrath.

I believe in all three battles it was the Fëanorians that prevailed.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
doriath = the sons of feanor killed dior, and a lot of other people in menegroth.

Sirion = same people attacked, threw elwen into the sea, and maedhros captured Elros and Elrond. Elros and Elrond were orphaned and Maglor took them in and cared for them.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Elros and Elrond were orphaned and Maglor took them in and cared for them.

To me one of the few redeeming features in any of the sons of Feanor.

Cannot speak for his singing... :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Kirinki54


To me one of the few redeeming features in any of the sons of Feanor.

Cannot speak for his singing... :) Indeed. Next to Daeron (Sp), he was supposed to have the most beautiful of voices. Feanor's two eldest children were the most mild mannored of the seven

[Ñólendil]

I don't know about that. The youngest to my mind was the most pure. But you need the Peoples of Middle-earth to suppose that, I guess.

[Wayfarer]

I was wrong... maglor, not maedhros.


Maglor was to my mind the best of the bunch. He was all for giving up the silmarils in the end.

Maedhros was also a good guy, but he felt he had to stick by his oath. And he died for it.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
I don't know about that. The youngest to my mind was the most pure. But you need the Peoples of Middle-earth to suppose that, I guess.

That would be Amras, no? Can you explain why?

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think as far as the published Sil. Amrod and Amras were not mentioned to any great lengths. They seemed to keep to themselves. However, all of the children of Feanor were bound by the Oath, including Maglor ad Meadhros.

[Ñólendil]

I think I've typed out the relevent passages before, I'll see if I can find it. It's from Vol. XII of HoMe. Tolkien decided that both of the two youngest children, the twins, were named Amros, and that one died shortly after reaching Middle-earth. ... Ah, bother, I can't find it. It's in The Shibboleth of Feanor.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
I think I've typed out the relevent passages before, I'll see if I can find it. It's from Vol. XII of HoMe. Tolkien decided that both of the two youngest children, the twins, were named Amros, and that one died shortly after reaching Middle-earth. ... Ah, bother, I can't find it. It's in The Shibboleth of Feanor.

Twins with the same name? How utterly confusing! :confused:

[Wayfarer]

It actually makes sense.

Elves were given one name at birth (usually based on some outstanding feature) and took another when they reached maturity. So identical twins could easily have the same birth name, but they would most likely take different Adult names, based on their personalities.

[Ñólendil]

Well, they did have different names in Aman. The elder of the two (the more dear to his father) was Nityafinwë Ambarussa, and the younger was Telufinwë Ambarussa. There's a story with it of course that would explain my opinion, but their father called the youngest Ambarto, and they called eachother Ambarussa. They could be distinguished: as they grew older the elder's hair grew darker, though both's were red-brown.

Ah, bother, here's the story as I remember it, near the end I've actually bothered to get my book out and use some of the actual dialogue.

There are father-names and mother-names among the Eldar of Aman. The father-name is given by the father, the mother-name by the mother. Fëanáro named the two youngest twins Nityafinwe and Telufinwe. 'Nityafinwe' meant 'Little Finwe' and 'Telufinwe' meant 'Last Finwe'. Nerdanel wife of Fëanáro named them both Ambarussa 'top-russet', because of their red-brown hair which they inherited from her. Mother-names are often prophetic, it must be remembered. When Feanáro begged that at least their names should be different, Nerdanel became troubled and said 'Then let one be called Umbarto, but which, time will tell'. Umbarto means 'Fated'.

Feanáro was either deeply troubled by this ominous name, or he heard her wrongly, but he either altered the name to or thought she had said Ambarto, 'upwards-exalted'. Nerdanel said 'Umbarto I chose, but it will not matter', or something along those lines. As they grew up, the elder, Nityafinwe, grew to look more like his father as his hair grew darker. He was more dear to Fëanáro. Anyway the Silmarillion tells about the estrangement of Fëanáro and Nerdanel, and the Oath and all that. Before Faenor's Host set out on the Great Journey, Nerdanel came to him and begged that he wouldn't go, but when it became plain that he would, he begged that one at least would never go to Middle-earth. He said 'Were you a true wife you would keep all of them and go with us. They are resolved to go with their father. Take your dark omens to the Valar, who will delight in them. I defy them.' So they parted. The Silmarillion tells of the Kinslaying at Alqualonde.

As the legend goes (and this part differs from the earlier versions), after Faenor had landed in Middle-earth, he waked his son Curufinwë (=Curufin) and some of his most trusted men, and they burned the white ships together in the night. In the morning most of the host (after they were roused) were upset, for many dear things that they loved were on those ships, and they wished to sail further down the coast. But Nityafinwë spoke in anger to his father: 'Did you not then wake Ambarussa my brother, whom you call Ambarto? He would not come ashore to sleep (he said) in discomfort.' But it was thought, and guessed by his father, that Telufinwe had it in his mind to sail his ship back to join Nerdanel, being horrified by the deeds of his father at Alqualonde. 'That was the first one I destroyed' said Fëanáro, hiding his own dismay. 'Then rightly you gave the name to the youngest of your children' said Ambarussa, 'and Umbarto "the Fated" was its true form. Fell and fey are you become.'

So Telufinwe died before his name was translated. Nityafinwe adapted his mother-name to Sindarin as Amros. Since his late young brother preferred his mother-name as well, I guess that is why he was also called 'Amros' in memory.

[Wayfarer]

*/wipes a tear from his eye.

Feanor has got to be the most pathetic figure ever written.

[Captain Stern]

WOW thanks Inoldonil for posting that, which HOME was that in?

That shows how far Feanor had fallen. Don't get me wrong about Feanor, it's not that I 'like' him as a person, ( few would ) it's just that I love reading about him and so he, shortly followed by Hurin Thallion is my favourite character of Tolkien's world.

[Ñólendil]

You can read it in the last Volume, Vol. XII, Peoples of Middle-earth.

[afro-elf]

feanor seems to be a !@#$%^&*

[Wayfarer]

Your propensity for apt characterization truly astounds me, Afro elf.

]:)

[Galin]

So Telufinwe died before his name was translated. Nityafinwe adapted his mother-name to Sindarin as Amros. Since his late young brother preferred his mother-name as well, I guess that is why he was also called 'Amros' in memory.

To add: published in Vinyar Tengwar 41, JRRT noted:

6) 'Amros Sindarin for Ambarussa. Had Amros Ambarto lived, it [i.e. the name Ambarto] would probably have been [Sindarized] as Amrod, but when[?encountered] at all in Sindarin form it was [?] Amarthan Fated One. S. ambart-> ammarth, amarth 'fate' = Umbarto'

Maedros, Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir, Amros, Amarthan

I take it that 'encountered' refers to encountered 'in text' but I suppose this name could refer to speech too, after all, Nerdanel's Umbarto had proven to be true.

Old thread, I know.

So the twins called each other Ambarussa, but 'Others called them Minyarussa and Atyarussa' ; i.e, 'First-russa and 'Second-russa'.

This from VT 41 again.