a new nemesis

[afro-elf]

what are some possible new threats that COULD happen in ME in the 4th age for some good fanfic or rpg?

what about the blue wizards?

what if one turns evil and the other fights against him?

what it BOTH turn evil and radaghast must waken his truer power

was the mouth of sauron killed?


any other ideas?

what if tesseract 12 finally snaps about being called a hobbit and not an Elf and becomes the new dark lord?

oh, the horror!!!!!:)

[afro-elf]

i guess the trollshaws, the withered heath and the area that comprised of angmar could still be dangerous. perhaps moria too.

[Comic Book Guy]

Tolkien once started to make a sequel to the Lord of the rings based in the Fourth Age during the reign of Aragorns son. I've never read it nor do I know what it is about, but its does sound interesting.

[Ñólendil]

Tolkien never got beyond the first few pages. He said a ' "thriller" ' was not worth doing.

It was set in the Hills of Emyn Arnen in Gondor, 220 years into the Fourth Age (100 years after the death of Elessar), the main character (or so I assume he is) was a descendent of Beregond. The 'New Shadow' appears to be something or someone named Herumor ('Dark-lord'), the beginner of a Satanic cult. That name had been used by Tolkien before -- of a rebellious South Gondorian.

What there is of the story I like very much. It has left many to wonder many things, such as what 'the Dark Tree' refers to, or the 'old evil'.

[Comic Book Guy]

Great, now I'll be day dreaming about that for weeks.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
It has left many to wonder many things, such as what 'the Dark Tree' refers to.

Hey, Dylan. remember my Flag of Herumor design?

http://cgi.mevault.ign.com/display/display.cgi?http://mevault.ign.com/features/artwork/BlackTree1_sm.jpg

Edit: Strange... the URL code isn't working.

[Ñólendil]

It works for me.

I've been wondering about that flag. Looks pretty good, though I think the skull could be done better. It would benefit from colour, probably.

[Wayfarer]

I have trouble with skulls. So sue me. Maybe I could get blackheart to do a model for me.

And yes... I'm going to redo it in colour.

Actually... I'll prolly do a real flag render. I did one of the blighted alliance flag... it looks real nice.

[Ñólendil]

Oh yes, you have to send me the revision! I really liked the BA banner. Btw, that old e-mail you sent me; where I had to guess the place -- it won't let me download it.

[Lelondul]

We've pontificated on this extensively in the past at the mevault boards that I regularly haunt. The blue Istari regularly come up as potential antagonists, remember Shelob is still around, and this Huremor is quite interesting too.

A quite extensive peice of fan fiction (the work of over a year's worth of effort of which Wayfarer is quite familiar ;) ) was also written at the Stilted Pony Rp'ing board of the Vault Network regarding the 4th age which took many cues from this new evil which is described in the "Peoples of Middle Earth". It was written with a focus on the unexplored east of Middle-earth, though Pallando the Blue was an aid in fighting the satanic cults of the Mouth of Sauron who, through Necromancy had sustained his life much beyond that of mortal man....

This was later disproven or deemed unlikely but the panel of experts there, but made for an interesting tale no less...

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
that old e-mail you sent me; where I had to guess the place -- it won't let me download it.

Huh?

[Wayfarer]

Sent you the new blight banner... BtB

[afro-elf]

This was later disproven or deemed unlikely but the panel of experts there, but made for an interesting tale no less...

what was the major reason for their decision?

[Ñólendil]

By 'panel of experts' Lelondul meant I think 'most of the people who post there regularly that involved themselves in the survey & debate' concerning the storyline. We had what we called the Middle-earth Charter Council (MC2), that was putting together a charter with concept work we put together for Middle-earth Online -- a MMPORPG if you didn't know, to give to the new developers that Sierra Studios had hired (then unseen and mysterious). The Council was made up of Stewardships that had different responsibilities. Lelondul and one other poster called Morthoron (the Chairman and beginner of the Council) were the Stewards of History & Storyline.

What I have read of that epic story on the Stilted Pony was indeed quite good (for fan fiction, noone claimed to be professional writers, and the Lord of the Rings is difficult to follow up). Personally, my main objection was discord with some of Tolkien's work: the time period the story took place in and the implications of that (in my opinion) huge problem. Since Lelondul mentioned it, I also follow the later Blue Wizard idea of Tolkiens: that they were not corrupted.

The idea was to introduce a lot of the Pony stuff into the Council material, you understand.

[afro-elf]

i actually like the idea of NOT having the blue wizards corrupted

it gives the elves dwarves and men of eastern and southern ME a chance to have

heroes of their own


actually with the down fall of Sauron they can now move west and north


in another thread which I don't recall

you mention

1) the blue wizards came with glorfindel in the second age
2) there mission was different
3) they were going to different parts


my questions are

wasn't there something about them going east with sarauman and not returning

is that just an earlier idea?

any idea what their mission was?

or which parts they left for?


and finally where is this info located?


a thanks before hand

[afro-elf]

with what you posted and wayfarer's rhosglawellon

i've got the parts that i need

the grey elves were called so because they were tutored by melian, thingol, and osse via via cirdan

there could be a tribe of rhosglawellon that have been tutored under the blue wizards so they may more along the lines of the sindar

and have with the fall of sauron have sought to explore the west or north

thanks my friends

my 4th age character is now set. i just have to wait for decipher to get it out in the spring

[Comic Book Guy]

The blue wizards mission was most probally to aid the lands east of Mordor, Tolkien's early idea was that the Blue Wizards abandoned their mission and started up magic cults that outlasted the fall of Sauron, later Sauron decided that they would become 'Darkness Slayer' and 'East helper' and they stayed faithful to their Mission. The best information on the Blue Istari is the the essay on the Istari in Unfinished tales.

The fact that Shelob is still alive probally caused the Army of Gondor to kill her during Aragorns reign or Eldarions, with a bit of difficulty. Also she could still breed offspring.

Inoldonil, what do you mean by a 'Thriller' would be worth doing?

[afro-elf]

, later Sauron decided that they would become 'Darkness Slayer' and 'East helper' and they stayed faithful to their Mission.

tolkien is sauron

wow :)

a funny typo

thanks for the info

which was which

pallando and i forgot the other ones name

[Comic Book Guy]

Thank you afro elf, I'll think i'll keep the typo for humurous purposes. The other Wizards name is Alatar.

[afro-elf]

thanks

was alatar darkness slayer or east helper?

[Ñólendil]

in another thread which I don't recall

you mention

1) the blue wizards came with glorfindel in the second age
2) there mission was different
3) they were going to different parts


my questions are

wasn't there something about them going east with sarauman and not returning

is that just an earlier idea?

any idea what their mission was?

or which parts they left for?


and finally where is this info located?

You'll find the info. about Alatar and Pallando as Blue Wizards in Unfinished Tales, Of the Istari. The Blue Wizards as Morinehtar and Romenstámo (or Rome(n)star) can be found in The Peoples of Middle-earth; Late Writings, Last Writings, the Blue Wizards. I have assumed that Alatar corresponds to Morinehtar and Pallando to Romenstámo since they end in the same elements, but that's just a foolish guess and all the more unlikely since the form 'Rome(n)star' was also given. I don't think it matters much, so little is known about either.

Gilthalion, master of fan-fiction, Robert Gardner, was also curious about the Blue Wizards. Since he has posted my posted answer here on Entmoot to his forum on his website, I have found it easily: ". (In the revised version, Pallando and Alatar were actually Romenstamo and Morinehtar, and they came in the Second Age and were successful, save in finding Sauron's hiding place after his first death)."

Alatar and Pallando were successful? In what? What did they accomplish? I'm really curious.

Here's the revised notes on the Blue Wizards: "No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said. [note from Inoldonil: Gandalf says in the Hobbit that Radagast is his cousin] ... (what is most probable) ... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.

[Note from Christopher Tolkien: The reference of the last sentence is to Saruman's violent retort to Gandalf at the door of Orthanc, in which he spoke of 'the rods of the Five Wizards' (The Two Towers p. 188.) Another note is even rougher and more difficult:]

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age [note 26]. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador [note 27]. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romenstamo [note 28]. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding place (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

Note 26: [These notes go with the text Glorfindel II, when my father had determined that Glorfindel came to Middle-earth in the Second Age, probably about the year 1600 (p. 382).]

Note 27: [With this reference to Glorfindel's part in the war in Eriador cf. the note cited on pp. 378-9.]

Note 28: [Elsewhere on this page this name is written Rome(n)star.]"

Gilthalion also posted a quick quote from a Tolkien letter, speaking of the Blue Wizards before Tolkien had discovered their names (or their hues in fact, this was before even that):

"I think", he wrote, "they
went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of
Númenórean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What
success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman
did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were
founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that
outlasted the fall of Sauron."

The Saruman passed into the East with the Blue Wizards and returned I believe is said in Unfinished Tales. Accepting the latest idea of the Blue Wzrds. doesn't mean you still can't keep this notion though.

the grey elves were called so because they were tutored by melian, thingol, and osse via via cirdan

Actually they were called the Sindar ('the Grey') by the Noldor because the first Elves of that people the Exiles came in contact with were the Mithrim, the Grey-host, called so because they lived in the grey land of Hithlum and wore cloaks that blended in with their surroundings (these sort of cloaks were much later used by the Elves of Lórien, or anyway in my opinion). So the Noldor called all that people 'the Grey'. It was later held to refer to Thingol ('Greycloak', he also had silver hair, a common trait in his house) as High King in Beleriand.

Inoldonil, what do you mean by a 'Thriller' would not be worth doing?

It is something Tolkien wrote. He said 'I could have written a "thriller" about the discovery of the plot, and it's overthrow, but it would be just that. Not worth doing.' The plot being that of the Satanic cult to usurp the Kingship of Gondor. Interestingly, in that same letter he described The New Shadow as a story 'supposed to refer to the end of the reign of Eldarion'. Herumor's cult and Eldarion perhaps were to be destroyed during the narrative.

[afro-elf]

hey kid thanks for the info

as for the sindar


the 1st place the idea i had of them being call grey was from a copy of the complete guide to middle earth

not calaiquendi BUT above the avari and silvan due the reason I mentioned above

[afro-elf]

here i'll still disagree

also in the ency of arda it states


Though Tolkien doesn't state this explicitly, 'grey' here clearly has a secondary meaning related to 'twilight'. With the unique exception of Thingol himself, the Grey-elves are technically Dark Elves, Moriquendi, but they are also Eldar of the Great Journey who almost came to the Blessed Realm, and who spent millennia with a Maia as their Queen. Of all the Elven kinds who remained in Middle-earth, the Grey-elves were the highest: it was partly for this reason that they are normally called 'Elves of the Twilight' rather than 'Dark Elves'.


i'll try to hunt around for some more support

actually you're the 1st person i've encountered who has said something different

[afro-elf]

besides

it can make my rhosglawellon a step above the avari/silvan but not quite noldar

[afro-elf]

i think that i will use the term

baranevair

rhosglawellon cool but

but i need a personal touch for my own rpg pc


baran [] n. brown, swart, dark brown, golden brown, yellow brown



evair [] n. pl. an elf, one of the Avari

This plural name was known to the loremasters, but went out of daily use at the time of the Exile

[Ñólendil]

Though Tolkien doesn't state this explicitly, 'grey' here clearly has a secondary meaning related to 'twilight'. With the unique exception of Thingol himself, the Grey-elves are technically Dark Elves, Moriquendi, but they are also Eldar of the Great Journey who almost came to the Blessed Realm, and who spent millennia with a Maia as their Queen. Of all the Elven kinds who remained in Middle-earth, the Grey-elves were the highest: it was partly for this reason that they are normally called 'Elves of the Twilight' rather than 'Dark Elves'.

I have found that the folks who have made the Encyclopedia of Arda have obviously never read The History of the Silmarillion Parts 1 and 2 in the History of Middle-earth, nor Vol. XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth.. As such they don't have all the information. For example, look up 'Maedhros'. They will tell you that the meaning of the name is 'Glitter of Metal', and they attach the following note: This meaning appears in The Etymologies, but there are some indications that Tolkien may not have meant to retain this derivation. Other possibilities include 'Spray of Light' or (according to some sources) 'Well-formed One', but 'Glint of Metal' seems to be the only derivation attested to by Tolkien himself. (The History of Middle-earth Volume 5, The Lost Road and Other Writings III The Etymologies).

It appears that whoever wrote this remembers someone telling them the name meant 'Well-formed One', but did not inquire as to why someone would think such a thing. An essay called The Shibboleth of Fëanor in the Peoples of Middle-earth (written in '68 or later) reveals that Maedhros's name in Valinor was Nelyafinwë Maitimo Russandol. 'Nelyafinwë' meant 'Third Finwë' (in succession), 'Maitimo' meant 'Well-shaped One', and Russandol 'Copper-top' in reference to his red-brown hair derived from his mother. Maedhros is explained as being the Sindarin equivalent of an element from two of his names: maiti and russ, so you get Maedhros. This explanation obsoletes the old one found in The Lost Road.

The explanation they give for 'Grey Elves' is derived from an entry in the Index of the Silmarillion, itself derived from a note by Tolkien, which was written before he decided on the explanation I gave you. The new idea comes from Part II of the Silmarillion History, The War of the Jewels, in an essay called Quendi and Eldar: Lake Mithrim, meaning originally 'Lake of the Mithrim'. Mithrim was a name given to them by the southern-dwellers, because of the cooler climate and greyer skies, and the mists of the North. It was probably because the Ñoldor first came into contact with this northerly branch that they gave in Quenya the name Sindar or Sindeldi 'Grey-elves' to all the Telerin inhabitants of the Westlands who spoke the Sindarin language.[note 36] Though this name was also later held to refer to Elwe's name Thingol (Sindikollo) 'Grey-cloak', since he was acknowledged as high-king of all the land and its peoples. It is said also that the folk of the North were clad much in grey, especially after the return of Morgoth when secrecy became needed; and the Mithrim had an art of weaving a grey cloth that made its wearers almost invisible in shadowy places or in a stony land. This art was later used even in the southern lands as the dangers of the War increased.

Note 36 from Christopher Tolkien: Neither the interpretation of Mithrim as the name of a people (for the old etymology see V.383-4, stem RINGI) nor this explanation of the name Sindar have been met before.

[afro-elf]

**** :)

there goes that story line