Dwarves: tolkien vs modern fantasy/rpg

[afro-elf]

Though I've always been a fan of elves i've had a great respect for dwarves.

if I went to war I'd want them for allies

however, my view is probably tainted by modern fantasy/rpg

which make dwarves short vikings with great at the forge



what are the differences between tolkien's dwarves and the ones i just menstioned?


how many times did elves had dwarves fight againt one another?

what was the out come?

[Bacchus]

Modern fantasy and RPGs borrowed heavily from Tolkien's dwarves.

Tolkien's dwarves were staunch allies and implacable foes. They were gifted smiths and miners, owing to their relationship with Aule. They had great physical strength and stamina. They were rather materialistic and clannish. They were stubborn and often unwilling to compromise. They lived approximately 200-250 years. Their women were a mystery, as only one was named, and she was never directly seen.

Vikings is probably not a good descriptor, as I do not believe that dwarves ever had interest in seafaring.

On the enmity with the elves, I've gone round and round with Michael Martinez on this subject on another board (Xenite.Org). My assertion is that the two races didn't care for each other much, although they were allied more often than they were at war. He is of the opinion that the enmity is more of a myth than anything else. The Green-Elves hunted the Naugrim before they realized that they were incarnates. There was the conflict at Doriath, although it is not clear exactly what occurred.

Hope this helps

[afro-elf]

thanks

the viking image was more of the ale guzzling, axe wielding, horned helm, war mongering type

not the sea faring type

i'm sorta in between you and mike on the elves/ dwarves issue

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Bacchus
My assertion is that the two races didn't care for each other much, although they were allied more often than they were at war.

Eregion/Moria was an example almost of a twin co-habitation Elves/Dwarves. They got along fine when they had mutual interests (mining and smithying). And there are other examples from the Sil.

Especially there was this Elf with a Dwarf name in Nargothrond, whatsisname?

Do you remember, Sister Golden Hair? :D

[Ñólendil]

I don't think Elves and Dwarves in general hated eachother as Elves and Dwarves. A lot of RPGs offer the lame excuse of their hatred with 'their great differences'. Mountain people simply hate the forest people.

The enmity between the Dwarves and Elves was historical, and not, as far as can be told, world-wide. It is certainly not taken for granted and Elves may make friends with Dwarves, or have relations with them (personal friendship was rare).

As far as the Eldar go it did start, as Bacchus said, when the Petty-dwarves were hunted by the Elves of Beleriand, mistakenly taken for beasts and creatures of Morgoth. This idea was revealed to be false when the Elves met the more friendly Dwarrows of the Blue Mountains, whom they allied with, but the Dwarves never really forgave them or forgot the hurt that was done to their exiled kin. The second big conflict was the sack of Doriath, which made some long-lasting Racism, but I don't think anything big happened between the Races in the West until the Balrog awoke and slew Durin, unleashing the terrible evil of that blasted thing on the surrounding countries. The Silvan folk of the Vales of Anduin blamed the Dwarves for their misfortune.

The only battle between the two peoples I remember were the events at Doriath. There was a natural strife between the First and Second Children and the Dwarves, owing to their strange beginning. Still, it's not as though a Dwarf would hack the head off the first Elf he sees in his afternoon walk. I think there were just some uneasy interrelations among some because of old grudges.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
There was a natural strife between the First and Second Children and the Dwarves, owing to their strange beginning

Dwarves were the read headed stepchildren of eru, so to speak? ;)

[Comic Book Guy]

Vikings is probably not a good descriptor, as I do not believe that dwarves ever had interest in seafaring.

The Vikings norse language was the basis for the Dwarf Tongue, Khuzdul.

[Varda]

what about dwarves in fairy tales? for instance snow white and the seven dwarves? that was a long time before tolkien, i would assume, and they are also portrayed as miners although it did not necessarily seem to such a lavish extent. those dwarves did not actually live in a cave, for instance... they lived in a house...

does anyone know about the portrayal of dwarves in works that predate tolkien?

[easterlinge]

In Norse legends, Dwarves were very clever at metalworking and the forge. In one tale, Dvalin made a wig of gold thread to replace Sif's hair (she had been shaved bald by naughty Loki, and her husband Thor was FURIOUS), that was so fine it was indistinguishable from the real thing.

They lived mostly alone, like Eol the Elf, were greedy, deceitful, jealous of other Dwarves (a dwarf challenged Dvalin into a smithying contest when Loki praised Dvalin above all Dwarves for the wig). Capable of making magical artifactss.

But they weren't warriors.

[Lightice]

Originally posted by afro-elf
thanks

the viking image was more of the ale guzzling, axe wielding, horned helm, war mongering type

not the sea faring type

i'm sorta in between you and mike on the elves/ dwarves issue

My good man, very rare vikings ever used horned helmet. Their mostly used weapons were sword and spear. Axes were mostly used only by the poorest. There were some valuable axes as well, but they were mostly exeptions.
And I don't remember, that Tolkien had too usually (if ever) referred dwarven horned helmets.

[afro-elf]

thanks for the input but i was not saying that vikings were that way just comparing the stereotype of both.