were the valar unfair?

[afro-elf]

from my understanding only those who made the trip could go to the west

but didn't cirdan stay behind because the valar asked him to?

which was his orginal group,vanyar, noldar. teleri?

if he stayed behind couldn't anyone sail west who made it to the falas?

but weren't the morquendi AND their descendants forbidden
to go west?

were the valar being unfair?

if no one could go west why was cirdan there?

[Captain Stern]

Any elf was allowed to go to the West any time they wanted to, that's why Cirdan stayed behind so he could build the boats that would carry them to the blessed realm.

Even the exiled Noldor could return if they repented and were willing to be judged by Manwe.

[Bacchus]

which was his orginal group,vanyar, noldar. teleri?

Cirdan was a Telerin Elf


Even the exiled Noldor could return if they repented and were willing to be judged by Manwe

With the possible exception of Galadriel. There are some indications that she was forbidden to return, because of her status as one of the rebellion's leaders. Her refusal to take the Ring seems to have been her redemption, under this theory. Tolkien was ambiguous on the subject.

[Ñólendil]

CS, not all Elves were allowed to take ship, only those belonging to a people that had gone on the Great Journey (the Eldar).

So you see, afro-elf, any Elda could take ship, or being that belonged in the Blessed Realm, or mortal Ringbearers. There was the rare exception of Gimli.

[Wayfarer]

Legolas took ship. And he wasn't of the Eldar, but of the Sindar.

I think it was open to all elves. After all, they got there one way or another.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
CS, not all Elves were allowed to take ship, only those belonging to a people that had gone on the Great Journey (the Eldar).

So you see, afro-elf, any Elda could take ship, or being that belonged in the Blessed Realm, or mortal Ringbearers. There was the rare exception of Gimli. I thought that all Elves were alowed to return to Valinor, even the Exiles that still lived after the ban was lifted with as Bacchus said the acception of Galadriel.

Gimli and the Ringbearers did not go to the Blessed Realm so to speak, but to Tol-Eressea (Sp). It was not in Valinor, but had once been bathed in the light of the Two Trees

[Ñólendil]

I had actually forgotten that they went to Tol Eressea, but I am saved since that island in the Third Age was considered to be a part of Aman. If this is not said in The Silmarillion, then it is most certainly said in letters of Tolkien's.

Certainly the Exiled Noldor could return to Aman after the lifting of the Ban (save those who led them from that land, i.e., Galadriel as you said). All I said was that the Elves who never went on the Great Journey could not. This is said in The History of the Silmarillion, either in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar (which I believe you have access to) or Quendi and Eldar in War of the Jewels. They could not because they (the Avari, the Evair) had only chosen: to stay in Middle-earth, they refused the summons.

[Sister Golden Hair]

So, what happened to the ones that couldn't go to Aman? Did they fade? If they died, would they go to Aman after Mandos?

[Ñólendil]

All Elves who didn't go to Aman eventually do fade, yes.

The spirits of the Elves who 'died' were invited to Mandos, it was open to them to refuse the invitation. I do believe in Laws and Customs it is said that Elves who returned among the living reported many Elves dwelling in Mandos, who had not desired to return. The implications were that many of the Avari did not desire to leave the Halls at all.

[afro-elf]

I personally think its unfair that the descendants of the avari did not get a choice

[Wayfarer]

It's said that, of the avari that died before the summons of orome and the great journey, almost none chose reincarnation.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil

So you see, afro-elf, any Elda could take ship, or being that belonged in the Blessed Realm, or mortal Ringbearers. There was the rare exception of Gimli.


What was his 'ticket' for going? The small note in Appendices seem a bit thin on explanations? :confused:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Kirinki54



What was his 'ticket' for going? The small note in Appendices seem a bit thin on explanations? :confused: I am not sure, but I think it was due to his deeds with the Fellowship, and his great friendship with Legoas.

[rashbold]

Originally posted by Kirinki54



What was his 'ticket' for going? The small note in Appendices seem a bit thin on explanations?
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By Sister Golden Hair

I am not sure, but I think it was due to his deeds with the Fellowship, and his great friendship with Lego(l)as.

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Actually it was actually due to the grace given through Galadriel, who was with the demise of Fëanor, the greatest of the Ñoldor. If you are wondering who was considered the greatest of the Eldar, it was Lúthien.

[Captain Stern]

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If you are wondering who was considered the greatest of the Eldar, it was Lúthien.
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Only if Tolkien would have stuck to his latest ideas, we all know he changed his mind a lot :D

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Only if Tolkien would have stuck to his latest ideas, we all know he changed his mind a lot :D

I think not really; he just discovered the true reasons for what he had written originally. :)

[afro-elf]

didn't eonwe reissue a summons to all elves after the war of wrath

[Artanis]

Not to all Elves, but to the Eldar, that is all the Elves that set out on the great journey from Cuivienen, even if they forsook the march afterwards, and their descendants.

[afro-elf]

That sucks if your bone head ancestors said "no" ages ago without your consent.

[Artanis]

Agree. But that seems to be the deal in Middle-Earth. You bear the status and the consequences of the deeds of your ancestors, good or bad. At the council of Elrond, Aragorn said:And since it seemed fit that Isildur's heir should labour to repair Isildur's fault, I went with Gandalf on the long and hopeless search.And when Elros chose to be reckoned among Men, he chose for his descendants as well.

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by Artanis
Not to all Elves, but to the Eldar, that is all the Elves that set out on the great journey from Cuivienen, even if they forsook the march afterwards, and their descendants.

MM say this

After the War of Wrath Eonwe travelled through Middle-earth and he reissued the summons to all the Elves to pass over Sea to Aman.


Here he mentions ALL. It was taken from a thread about the Avari.

Can you site the source you give were it says only the Eldar.

[Artanis]

The Silmarillion, Akallabêth: When therefore Morgoth had been thrust forth, they held council concerning the ages that should come after. The Eldar they summoned to return into the West, and those that hearkened to the summons dwelt in the Isle of Eressëa; and there is in that land a haven that is named Avallónë, for it is of all cities the nearest to Valinor, and the tower of Avallónë is the first sight that the mariner beholds when at last he draws nigh to the Undying Lands over the leagues of the Sea.
Then there is letter #151: Gone was the 'mythological' time when Valinor (or Valimar), the Land of the Valar (gods if you will) existed physically in the Uttermost West, or the Eldaic (Elvish) immortal Isle of Eressëa; or the Great Isle of Westernesse (Númenor-Atlantis). After the Downfall of Númenor, and its destruction, all this was removed from the 'physical' world, and not reachable by material means. Only the Eldar (or High-Elves) could still sail thither, forsaking time and mortality, but never returning. And finally letter #154:But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves – not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressëa – but so pass out of time and history, never to return.

[afro-elf]

Thanks.

[Ruinel]

If the choice was made for all your decendents, then you better think about the long term! It makes the choice all that much more important. They made their choice for themselves as well as their decendents. Not the best choice, not an informed choice, and not the choice I would have made. Were the Valar unfair to the decendents, maybe... yeah, I think so. But I believe exceptions were made. Legolas made the trip West and he was not a decendent of the Eldar but Moriquendi. However, he had served ME as a member of the Fellowship and did a great service for all of ME.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

He probably batted his eyelashes at Varda. :p

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Legolas made the trip West and he was not a decendent of the Eldar but Moriquendi.As far as I know, Legolas was a Sinda and one of the Eldar. His grandfather Oropher journeyed from Beleriand with some of his people, and established his realm among the Silvan Elves in Greenwood. The Silvan Elves were themselves reckoned among the Teleri, and so they were also in origin Eldar.

There were exceptions, as you said, but Legolas was not among them.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
As far as I know, Legolas was a Sinda and one of the Eldar. His grandfather Oropher journeyed from Beleriand with some of his people, and established his realm among the Silvan Elves in Greenwood. The Silvan Elves were themselves reckoned among the Teleri, and so they were also in origin Eldar.

There were exceptions, as you said, but Legolas was not among them.

You know, I think I'm wrong on this one. :) For whatever reason, I always thought that only the Elves who actually finished the trip were considered Eldar. Now I look back in The Sil and it says that all those that started on the trip, not necessarily those that finished the trip. Only the Avari are not considered Eldar. Oropher didn't have to finish the trip to be considered Eldar. Hmmmm, weren't they called Eglath ("the Forgotten" or "Forsaken", can't recall which).