Why didn't Sauron lead the attacks?

[bmilder]

Why didn't Sauron come out of the Dark Tower and do battle himself? He could easily have won the War of the Ring by going to war personally. His Nazgul were powerful, useful servants, but their leader was slain by a Hobbit and a woman warrior. Sauron was in the battle at the end of the Second Age. Although he did lose his Ring then, most of his opponents from that war were long gone.

Sauron could have given Gandalf a real challenge. Gandalf's most difficult battle was with another Maia, the Balrog, and he just barely defeated him. Sauron is certainly much more powerful than the Balrog, so he could quite possibly kill Gandalf in single combat. Why didn't he? Too lazy? ;)

[IronParrot]

If he was like me, he'd be basking in the glow/darkness of his power... consolidating and expanding his control right from the top...

But you've brought up a really good question here...

[andustar]

hm... i'll think about this one...

[Darth Tater]

Why doesn't the president lead our country whenever we're at war? He just sits there in the White House, he's not out there in the battle. Why? Because he's not expendable. That sounds sick but that's the only logical reason.

[bmilder]

Yeah, well who could kill Sauron? I don't think he'd have to worry too much about stray arrows ;) . Presidents don't lead people into battle anymore, but there have been plenty of former generals who became President.

[Eruve]

Doesn't it say something somewhere about Sauron knowing fear? Or is that a quote about Morgoth? Anyway, I think it's a possibility, and he would remember being defeated in the Battle of the Last Alliance.

[Michael Martinez]

Every time Sauron took a personal hand in his wars, he got his butt whipped. Staying in the Dark Tower was the practical thing to do. :)

[IronParrot]

Besides... the point of exerting so much power and control in the first place is so other people do your dirty work for you...

[RKittle]

Sauron enjoyed the destruction of his allies as much as his enemies. His greatest pleasure was in creating dissention among Iluvatar's children. If he went around taking care of business himself, directly attacking his enemies, he wouldn't have anyone stab in the back.

[Gandalfer]

The reason my friends may be as simple as this, Sauron was to proud or had to big of an ego to come out and fight. If you were the "Lord of Darkness" who would you fear? Would you waste your time, he was too @#%$y and didnt think he could be defeated, but he took a fall.

[andustar]

i think what most of you have said is true. though he definatley wouldn't have to worry about stray arrows, he still felt fear. withought his Ring he was not all-powerful, and though probably no warrior could kill him, they could do him harm. remember when isildur cut off his finger? like that. it was a lot safer and practical to stay at home. i can't remember who it was that said this, but its true: if he has so much power, he would want to use it to make them do his dirty work!!
his enemies might have some weapon or something he didn't know about, (not likely and we know it is not true). but suppose they had decided to wield the ring, and he came out to battle? he would be defeated. wouldn't he think that it was better that his armies should perish that him himself? apart from any cold logical reason, i'm sure he would be plain scared!

[The One Ring]

And besides, he's an evil genius warlord. One of the requisites for evilgeniuswarlordhood is that you always have to stay behind in your headquarters, and laugh maniacally as you watch your armies advance. You also have to wear dark clothing, be able to smile demonically, and have a big strong lieutenant who says things like "Yes, my master."

[andustar]

:lol: you have a point...

[Darth Tater]

Tor, you nailed it!

[Sharku]

Good points, but, imho, the reason is more simple: the might of the Lidless Eye could have easily destroyed all armies of the free people at once (Gandalf would have been able, too, for that matter), so why should he do the dirty work himself until the very end when his intervention would be crucial and ineviatble? The point is that, in the middle of liosing the decisive battle in front of the Black Gate, the Ring was destroyed, and Lúgburz collapsed and Sauron perished before he could intervent.

[Stiegl]

Another point is that Sauron didn't know the whereabouts of his ring. For all he knew the forces that came from Minas Tirith could have possessed the ring and would then have been strong enough to do him great harm. One of the reasons the Fellowship was able to destroy the ring was because Sauron couldn't fathom someone would want to destroy all of that power.

Sauron may have sent his armies forth with the belief that if the ring was present, it would have to be revealed by the opposition in order to survive such an onslaught. If this was the case, it would give Sauron the time to come up with an alternate plan and maybe with the help of the ring, turn his enemies towards his side. If the ring was not present, then the forces opposing him would stand no chance. Therefore, from Sauron's perspective, there was no need to reveal himself at the Towers of the Teeth.

As Gandalf said, the Fellowship's one chance laid with the arrogance of Sauron and his conviction that no one would conceive to destroy a ring of such power.

[arynetrek]

great point, Steigl!

aryne *

[Gandalfer]

He didnt come out because he was unsure, he had everyone to do his dirty work and if you have the power to control others, why waste your own energy?
However he created the ring with the intention of enslaving everyone when he put it on right, but now someone else has it, he may have been scared, seems highly unlikely but may be true if you have a knife in a fist fight and your opponent gets it, it would make you think twice before looking him in the eye.

[andustar]

i was rereading lotr today, and i found a qupte which reminded me immediately of this thread. denethor is talking to pippin after gandalf comes back with news. gandalf says 'for one has come who i feared' and pippin cries out 'the dark lord?' then denethor says:

'Nay, not yet, master peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, master Halfling.'

there. i think denethor has a very good point ;)

[trevkw]

What would Sauron have done, if he had motivation and opportunity to come out of his tower and open his big, black can o'whoop*ss?

I mean, how, exactly, would he have manifested his power? I'm another one of those people who bought, but never read the Silmarillion, and maybe therein lies the truth.

It seems to me that, without his ring, Sauron was a mere shadow -- a vaguely-defined, malevolent will, who could certainly influence the course of events (and the weather) in Middle-Earth, and keep an "eye" on everything...but would he have been able to, say, blow up half of the good guys with a big fireball?

What was Sauron, exactly, by the time the final battle rolled around?

[arynetrek]

sauron must have had very strange anatomy -
in LotR, he had an eye & a mouth, but no mention of anything else.

aryne *

[Quickbeam]

Didn't Gollum mention his 'black hand'?

[noldo]

I always thought that he could take any form he wanted.

[Taimar]

By the time of the War of the Ring, Sauron could not appear in any form he wished. He lost this ability at the end of the Second Age when he was caught in the destruction of Numenor. During the Second Age, he spent much time in Eregion in the guise of Annatar, which, if I remember correctly means `Lord of Gifts`. He also was presumably reasonably pleasing to the eye during his sojourn in Numenor.

To get back to the original thread, I think there are two main factors at work here. The first has been well covered by Stiegl, namely the fact that Sauron would been worried by the prospect of someone, probably Gandalf, using the Ring against him. I don`t doubt for a minute that Gandalf armed with the Ring would have crushed Sauron in any direct confrontation.

The other point is that Sauron had clearly lost a considerable amount of innate power between the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings. In the First Age he often took a direct hand in events, for example his defeat of Finrod and his transformation into wolf form in order to fight Huan. The apparent ease with which he transforms himself into the `most powerful wolf that had yet walked the earth` hints at a level of power which is certainly not apparent in LOTR.

I think that the making of the Ring, a process in which he clearly invested a great deal of his own power, combined with the destruction of his earthly form during the wrack of Numenor reduced his abilities by a large amount. At the end of the Second Age he could be defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil, even though he possessed the Ring. A powerful Maia such as he would surely have dealt with an elf and a man with comparatively little effort if he were at full strength. Compare this with his aforementioned (fairly comfortable) defeat of the powerful elflord Finrod.

[noldo]

Oh.

I'm still reading the Silmarillion.

noldo http://www.earlyng.homestead.com/files/gildor.gif

[RL Zero]

In my opinion Sauron let others do his work. He may have not been defeated if he had, but Gandalf certainly would have put up a good fight. Remember both are limited in their power on middle earth at this time.

Maybe he feared that someone like Gandalf would get the ring and use it against him. Someone powerful enough to wield the ring against him. He could not concieve of anyone wanting to destroy it, nor probally he could not concieve that his enemies would not wish to use it against him.

Also remember Saruman told Gandalf that they would deal with Sauron one way or another. What if two Istari, the two most powerful no less, went up against Sauron? Sauron may fear that.

With out the Ring Sauron was scared plain and simple. Once he got it he would then emerge from Mordor to claim his prize of Middle-Earth. However then the Valar probally would have came over to defeat him and in the process destroy half of Middle Earth

[Carcharoth the Red Maw]

He was a bit knackered after working on the wiring for his lighthouse which looks like a big red eye from a distance...he was busy adding a new 500 watt red lightbulb...

Visit the The Green Dragon (http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/32471) - Keeping the Hobbit population intoxicated since 1167

[Spock1]

Oh, come now. All good generals stay in the rear. Alexander, Ceasar, Hitler, Montgomery, Swartzkopf
ad. infinitum. It's simply strategically and tactically sensible.

[Stiegl]

To Taimar - thanks for the props!!!

Also, I liked the quote of Denethor. I think it shows a bit how he'd begun to go mad as he seems to view the attack on Minas Tirith as a personal vendetta against him by Sauron.

[mhomer4]

He had eye, mouth and hand. Islidur cut off a finger of the Black Hand, he had only four.

Now, if you were a dark lord with 10 powerful rings at your command and thousands of minions who do as you say, would YOU go out and fight, to risk life and limb when you had totally expendable fighters, so much as you gave them away?

Combined, the forces of good could easily defeat Sauron, Aragorn was powerful enough to fight him in the palantir, Galadriel held out his though probing, and Mithrandir could stand up to him. His Nazgul was killed by a Hobbit and a woman, they were supposed to be his strongest. The powers of a wizard, an elf-queen and the heir of Islidur would be too much. Especially if the One Ring was used against him, of which he had no sure belief against.

[Fuor]

as others have said Sauron would ave to be mad to go out and fight when he has the whole of Mordor to do it for him.
Another thing is that the Lord Nazgul has just been killed and that probably would have shaken him a bit (although he wouldn't have let it show).

Although he wouldn't have thought that anyone would destroy the ring surely he would ave put some guard on Mount Doom. I mean Gandalf rode an eagle there from the Black Gate in about five minutes. Thinking of that why didn't someone just fly in the first place. A sort of suicide mission to destroy the ring. Gandalf could have slipped through while the Nazgul were occupied with Saruman or something.

Yet another point. Why didn't the Valar come over and kick Sauron's butt about an age ago ? Were they just lazy or something. (I but an answer to that will be that they had to leave middle-earth to make it's own decisions, its the same sorta thing as God (if there is one) leaving people to die I suppose.)

[easterlinge]

"Yet another point. Why didn't the Valar come over and kick Sauron's butt about an age ago ? Were they just lazy or something. (I but an answer to that will be that they had to leave middle-earth to make it's own decisions, its the same sorta thing as God (if there is one) leaving people to die I suppose.) "

Sauron promised to be good, I think. I get the impression it was a good long while before he started scheming again.

Suppose Sauron had gotten the One Ring? Gandalf said that Sauron's victory would be so complete no one can see the end of it. Would the Valar intervene?

[amylovescarnage]

aryne, you trying to say something? ^_^

I think Saruon was storing up and planning inside of his tower, or he was waiting and stratigizing. He was at the platintir to watch all.

[Niffiwan]

No, he didn't have a mouth; just an eye. Just a huge, lidless, round red eye.

The "mouth" that you are talking about was that Black Numenorian's nickname.

[Michael Martinez]

The Valar refused to take direct action again after the First Age because of the harm they did to the physical world.

[The Black Lieutenant]

Speak of the devil . . .:evil:

When I served as Mouth of Sauron, the Master was nothing but a big red spectral Eye floating in a cloud of darkness. Embarrassed by the fact that he had been rendered bodiless for all time, he did not wish to be seen by anyone but me and the Witchking. The black hand Gollum remembered was mine. I'm the one who got from him where the Ring was hidden, and it was I he remembered with such fear. After all, in case you haven't heard, I am crueller than any orc.

[Mandos]

Sauron probably still remembered his humiliating defeat at the hands of Gil-Galad and Elendil. He also was a big eye, so its hard to fight that way.

[Inoldonil]

I don't think he was an Eye. The Eye is said to be the Eye of Sauron, and Gollum notes that he has only nine fingers on The Black Hand (or something like that). I believe there is a reference to his appearing after he was revealed to Celebrimbor and all those folk as being hideous and terrible to behold, but my memory may have failed.

I picture a very tall person (but not giant sized), with ugly skin that looks as though it was burnt or rotting, clad in dark mail from neck to foot, but this being covered by a great cloak of inexorable shadow, a weary and a pain to any eyes that look upon it, with one large eye in the center of his mighty head, and this is fiery around the edges, but glazed and yellow like a cat's, watchful, dreadful, intent and powerful with a black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing. On a black throne I picture him, sitting still, gazing out of Barad-dur with perilous concentration, his thoughts reaching out like iron claws, as cold as the frosts of the Northern Wastes that his master wrought long ago, searching to grip the plots of his enemies and crush them in domination.

This description is in the Mirror of Galadriel, the eye one I mean.

[easterlinge]

Maybe Sauron was afraid someone would give him a black Eye.

[The Black Lieutenant]

:lol:

Well, perhaps it wasn't me after all. My memory's not what it was. I can't even remember my own name. Must be all those drugs I did in the Second Age.

[Inoldonil]

I found the passage I was looking for. Of course it was not after he was revealed to Celebrimbor that he lossed his fair semblance, for such was his appearance afterwards in Numenore. It was after the Akallabeth in the chapter of the same name that it says his form was afterwards black and hideous.

[Mace McClain]

Thats kinda interesting.

But I think Sauron was just being a whip. *sees Sauron attacking him* Maybe not

[mandark20]

it is because sauron does not have a form in the lord of the rings. he was destroyed at the end of the second age. he has no form

[Shanamir Duntak]

He has one.

[Inoldonil]

Indeed he does. He can't not have a form while the Ring lasts.

He had some sort of terrible humanoid form during the War of the Ring, as he is said to have nine fingers on the Black Hand, and to have an Eye (many make the mistake of supposing he is the Eye).

[Fat middle]

hehe, this thread has finished the same than the one about Sauron's death. :)

but here he's got five aditional fingers in one hand :p

[Ring Lord Rules]

I have come to settle the matter of my form... Your debate has reached across the Ephel Duath and down across the plain of Gorgoroth... my spies have brought to me, in Barad-dur the words you have spoken...

I once I had form as the Maiar had form and I could walk among the Eldar and the lesser Men of Middle Earth. But by the end of the Third Age I had become a Shadow that could take the form of a Great Darkness in the likeness of a man, and that likeness could hold a Ring on it hand for those whom I wanted it to appear so... But make no mistake... I am Shadow... With the One Ring, that Shadow could present itself in any form I wished... without the Ring my only Power was in the act of controlling others... bending their minds to my will. Fear is my greatest weapon!

Without the One Ring, I am but a Shadow of my former self, an Eye ever-searching for that which is lost to me.

You do not yet believe? Then lay your own eyes upon my Dark Presence... the Eye of the Dark Tower...

www.thelandofshadow.com/m...e/eye2.htm (http://www.thelandofshadow.com/mordor/sauron/eye/eye2.htm)

[Manwe Sulimo]

IIRC, Sauron lost his ability to change shape as he wanted to in the Downfall of Numenor, long before the Ring was made, or even thought of. So, even if Sauron regained the Ring, with all the power he set into it, I don't think he would ever be able to change shape as he wanted again. After the Akabelleth he could only appear as a menacing, fear-bringing dark precense.

[hiku747]

i didnt read thru all the posts and if i repeat what someone says, dont mind me... sauron wasnt really in physical form was he? he was more of an undying spirit power type thing... he was the eye, not in human form anymore... the way i took it is if he got the ring back he would be restored to human form and "cover all the land in a second darkness". he had a lot of evil power and control over evil beings, but it didnt seem to me like he was a human anymore...:confused: you know?

[Elvellon]

About your question bmilder, I remember reading (somewhere) that orcs had the nasty tendency to start fighting among themselves whenever there wasn’t a focusing will to direct them. I believe that meant that Sauron actually needed to control their wills magically, directing the chaotic, destructive nature of orcs against his (and only his!) enemies. If that is true, then it is likely that he simply could not be fighting his enemies in the battlefield and, at the same time, force his will upon his army.:)

[Fat middle]

welcome to Entmoot, Elvellon !!:) where are you from?

i read somewhere (i think it is in the 5th part of Morgoth's Ring) a quick draft Tolkien was making about creation. he was discussing the differences between the creation acts of Iluvatar, Aulë and Melkor.

what i can remember is that only Iluvatar could create beings both free and able to love him. Aulë created the Dwarfs and he wanted them to love him, but thence they were not free: he needed to "move her by remote control" if i may put it so ;)

Melkor (and then Sauron, i guess) created free Orcs, but they can't love him, only obey him.

Well, i'm not sure Tolkien meant exactly what i've said but i like the idea. Anyway, i think to remember he rejected that draft afterwards.

[Elvellon]

Hi again,

I’m from very near you, Fat middle; I’m from Portugal.
Thanks for the input!:)

[Elvellon]

:) :) :)

[Shanamir Duntak]

Oupsy... double post....

Welcome to the board!

[Ñólendil]

lol Fat Middle!

But haven't you read Letter #954? It remained the chief peculiarity among incarnated Maiar that they would (by, no doubt, the ultimate will of Eru, God, or else the rebellious 'demonic' figure of Melkor/Morgoth) have ten fingers on one hand, but none on the other. This was not the case for the Istari, or Wizards who of course had to look like ordinary Men, although they were always old. This was done, I think, not so much because of genetic 'taste' and theory, but rather to ensure a certain poster on Entmoot would not look like a fool for suggesting it.

At least I think that's what that letter says ... in any case, you see how Sauron would have nine fingers on one hand, his Ring-finger being removed by Isildur.
:p

[Fat middle]

:D :D

well, i think i'll have to look for that quote in Morgoth's Ring, i see you don't trust my memory... nor my interpretation skills :p

yep, letter #954!! sure :p

[LofL]

About Gandalf and the Balrog: I think that after Gandalf defeated the Balrog and went into his trance, he changed. He doesn't even call himself 'Gandalf the Grey', but 'Gandalf the White'. Saruman was 'Saruman the White' before Gandalf was white, and Saruman hoped to defeat Sauron.

[Ñólendil]

Welcome!

Yes, he changed drastically. Indeed he fell into more than a trance, he actually died in slaying the Balrog - and returned.

[Lord_Ov_The_Thunder]

Originally posted by bmilder
Why didn't Sauron come out of the Dark Tower and do battle himself? He could easily have won the War of the Ring by going to war personally. His Nazgul were powerful, useful servants, but their leader was slain by a Hobbit and a woman warrior. Sauron was in the battle at the end of the Second Age. Although he did lose his Ring then, most of his opponents from that war were long gone.

Sauron could have given Gandalf a real challenge. Gandalf's most difficult battle was with another Maia, the Balrog, and he just barely defeated him. Sauron is certainly much more powerful than the Balrog, so he could quite possibly kill Gandalf in single combat. Why didn't he? Too lazy? ;)


He couldn't fight gandalf yet, for gandalf is originally Olorin, and he used to live in Lorien in Valinor, Gandalf wouldn't have been defeated because he was forbidden to match sauron's power with power but only to rally his enemies together... besides if gandalf used his full power he would kick sauron's butt..

[Comic Book Guy]

OlorÃ*n was the wisest of the maiar, but probally not the most powerful because if he was he would have probally been the head of the Istari and Melkor would have attemped to corrupt him in the beginning. As for Gandalf defeating Sauron while using his full power, Of course he may won, But only becoause sauron had lost a lot of his orignal power.

[Agburanar]

I had another interesting thought. It's always been my suspicion that Sauron had no actual form at the end. He was embodied in the remains of the Nazgul and held together only by the power of the Great eye. I am a firm believer that the eye was somehow manifested in a huge statue in one of the highest chambers. It's just an image that appeals to me, he'd be a suitable candidate for some kind of Idolatry.

[ringbearer]

For some reason, while reading LotR, I never formed a "mind picture" of Sauron. The descriptions(in LotR only) were vague(perhaps because his form was vague at this stage). Therefore, I think he was a disembodied spirit. The "red eye thingie" is a symbol of his ability to see long distances through whatever means he used, and how whoever sensed his probing would picture it in their mind. Remember at the last battle...his emisary was called " the Mouth of Sauron"...because Sauron had no mouth of his own!

[Agburanar]

Well said.
Of course it's possible that the mouth WAS Sauron, however I think this unlikely. Had Sauron passed away and his minions were held in his 'imaginary' command only because the one Ring still remained? Had Sauron's spirit retreated into the ring giving it it's power to move between carriers and, finally tiring of life on middle earth, chose to have his spirit perish in the fires of Orodruin?

[Finmandos12]

Well, I can't see Sauron allowing himself to perish and giving up his plans of world domination so easily, if he was in the ring.

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by Agburanar
Well said.
Of course it's possible that the mouth WAS Sauron, however I think this unlikely. Had Sauron passed away and his minions were held in his 'imaginary' command only because the one Ring still remained? Had Sauron's spirit retreated into the ring giving it it's power to move between carriers and, finally tiring of life on middle earth, chose to have his spirit perish in the fires of Orodruin?

Sauron's spirit was not in the ring, only much of his power.

[Galadriel2002]

Also remember Saruman told Gandalf that they would deal with Sauron one way or another. What if two Istari, the two most powerful no less, went up against Sauron? Sauron may fear that.



going back to this i would be thinking if sauraman didn't becaome saurons helper and he remained good i think he and gandalf could have whipped saurons @ss!!:):D

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by Galadriel2002
Also remember Saruman told Gandalf that they would deal with Sauron one way or another. What if two Istari, the two most powerful no less, went up against Sauron? Sauron may fear that.



going back to this i would be thinking if sauraman didn't becaome saurons helper and he remained good i think he and gandalf could have whipped saurons @ss!!:):D

Gandalf was not allowed to contest Sauron with power and he would not violate this!

[Agburanar]

Gandalf wouldn't have, but what about the other Istari? Radagast is supposed to have given into the lure of Nature and Alatar and Pallando strayed as well didn't they? If these were directed by Saruman against Sauron (Assuming Sauron lessened his hold on Saruman) That would be four Istari and surely Sauron would fear that!:eek:

[olorin]

If I remember from the Sil, I think, Sauron was a Maia of higher order than the Istari were, more along the lines of Eonwe, the herald of Manwe. Also, after the Last Alliance, Sauron was vanquished (for the third time, if I remember correctly) and fled shapeless to widerness, so maybe the eye was the final shape he could take

[Agburanar]

So Sauron was the victim of a macabre game of 'Heads, shoulders, knees and toes'? He lost a bit each time! (Like several of the orcs at Cirith Ungol, hahaha!)

[Gandalf]

First regarding your Gandalf comment:
Gandalf the White and Gandalf the Grey are not the same. The Gandalf that whitstood the Witch King could have easily whooped the Balrog's arse. And besides, if it hadn't been for that whip Gandalf wouldn't have fallen in the first place.

Secondly:
Sauron has no body. It's quite hard to fight without one of those.

Third:
He did lead the attack, mentally.

- Bram;

[Gandalf]

Originally posted by olorin
If I remember from the Sil, I think, Sauron was a Maia of higher order than the Istari were, more along the lines of Eonwe, the herald of Manwe. Also, after the Last Alliance, Sauron was vanquished (for the third time, if I remember correctly) and fled shapeless to widerness, so maybe the eye was the final shape he could take

That's not quite true ... I can't find it in my notes at the moment (will look later), but the Istari - or at least Gandalf - outranked Sauron.

[Tar-Elenion]

Sauron had no body?
Thats odd Gollum describes him as having a hand. JRRT drew a picture of Sauron and Sauron looks reasonably 'humanoid' (the picture was drawn for a cover of RotK). Sauron, in the Third Age, took a 'human' form. He was not a disembodied 'Eye' (that was merely his symbol).

Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf.

[Ñólendil]

Gandalf, in Of the Istari in Unfinished Tales it is said that the Istari were not necessarily of the same rank as the other Maiar (they themselves were certainly Maiar), but it is not stated whether they were lesser or greater. I would be inclined to say lesser rather than greater, as Curumo (Saruman, if you didn't know) was a Maia of Aulë and Sauron was stated to be the greatest of that people.

Olórin was stated to be coeval with Manwë, but I think this just means they were of the same age.

[Gandalf]

That indeed was mentioned, yes, but both your as my version are possible, as neither of them are denied nor confirmed.


Perhaps Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf yes, but only in an Evil way. As we all (should) know, Sauron was Morgoth's apprentice and not a bit less evil than him. Gandalf however (note: I am referring to Gandalf the White here) is powerful as well. It is certain that Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey, but whether the same goes for Gandalf the White is a whole other issue ... I don't know the answer, but think that if Gandalf would have used his Ring (which he wasn't supposed to, but anyway) he might've nuked Sauron.

[Tar-Elenion]

Remember Gandalf's (as the White) own comment on the matter. He told Gimli that he was more dangerous than anything in Middle-earth except Sauron.

[Gandalf]

"Except" can also mean "along with" ... But anyway, let's not argue about that. Gandalf and Sauron are both fascinating, regardless of who was the best.

[samwise of the shire]

It said at the beggining that the Ring drew the will of Sauron to it,so during the times of quiet would'nt the Ring be able to call strong enough to draw Saurons mind to it?What happened? Did Frodos will cover it or was Sauron an idiot as well as a coward(which is the reason why I think he stayed in the tower)?
Sam

[Finmandos12]

Obviously, Sauron is more powerful than Saruman, who was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey (don't know about the White). If Saruman was more powerful than Sauron, he would've wiped him out when he turned to evil.

[Gandalf]

Saruman wasn't more powerful than Gandalf the White, I believe book III Chapter XI - or was it X? - explains that in great detail ;).

BTW: you will never see me refer to a chapter's title, because I read LOTR in Dutch, and therefor do not know the English names of the chapters.

- Bram

[fatclown]

I belive you are overlooking the strategic element behind sauron's thinking. Alright. Sauron and Gandalf would not have been able to defeat eachother because neither presented a distinct advantage. Sauron's principal goal was to retreive his ring. In his current form as the lidless eye, all he was trying to do was find the ring. Only with the ring would he be able to defeat everything. I also think sauron didn't require a presence at that battle. Besides he had the Witch King of Angmar, an immensly powerful captain leading his forces, and gothmog, the luietenant of minas morgul.

Another thing, gandalf is very modest in his power. Both he and the balrog are of the same race, the maiar. But gandalf merely needed to die to unleash some of his power. As the white nothing the balrog could do could have defeated gandalf and was actually slain without difficulty, just a lot of effort on gandalf's part. Gandalf wasn't supposed to control people, he was merely a guider. He was supposed to help the people of middle earth, not exercise his power and do the job for them.

As for the battle of dagorlad, sauron is a spirit that inhabits BODIES he cannot be slain, but the flesh he had his ring on was cut off, forcing his spirit to flee. Like melkor, sauron can't die, he is merely banished to another realm. Also, the nazgul cannot be harmed by common steel, so they were definately worthy represenatives to lead his forces as he concentrated his efforts on retreiving the ring and keeping a vigil on mt. doom.

Another possibliity is the fact that if sauron was defeated in his physical form and banished to search for a new body, Mt. Doom would be left wide open for his ring's destruction

[Agburanar]

That is a good thought. The books say clearly that Sauron was not all-seeing and faced with that situation he would have seemed well-protected. I believe you have the answer!

[Comic Book Guy]

Doesn't it say somewhere that the Nazgûl are the apple of Saurons eye?

[Michael Martinez]

Grishnakh, leader of the Mordor Orcs who help the Uruk-hai try to escape with Merry and Pippin, says that the Nazgul are the apple of Sauron's eye when he rebukes Ugluk. See "The Uruk-hai" in The Two Towers.

[Comic Book Guy]

What did Grishnakh he mean by saying that the Nazgûl are the apple of the great eye?

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy
What did Grishnakh he mean by saying that the Nazgûl are the apple of the great eye?

That usually means favorite.

[Michael Martinez]

"Apple of my eye", or something similar, is a Biblical expression.

[afro-elf]

there was one power sauron feared more than any other

a force so powerful that the war of wrath would seem like slap on the wrist

he feared .... tolkien fans

never has there walked in any age a more fierce power than the wings/no wings balrog warriors

he would have been CRUSHED in between the forces and then smoked like pipe weed

[Metus_of_Morgul]

Soron (as pronounced by Rhun soldiers in BFME) was in a conflict...

1.As many said,he had no clue where is his precious...
2. Why the hell is a small army of men attacking the massive black gate where he have dozens of army's?
3. Who is the spy who's male the orc brought to Barad Dur and why did he even survived?
4. And an all time fear for his faith,not to be as the faith of hist master ...to be banished to the void " There is no life in the void...only...death"
5. How did they killed his favorite Nazgul?
6. Iz d army of d dead still with Aragorn?

All in all the sinister Dark Lord was very nervous,I bet he felt the ring in some way...only he didn't (as many told) thought 2 hobbits are going to case it into the fire (Isildur didn't)

About his form I am in a confusion ... if he is an eye,he would NOT need a Palantir...or the eye is something that stares all time long in that Palantir and is connected to his brainz...and he just sits there on the top of Barad Dur wondering when will it rain in Nurn so he could feed his orcs...:D

[Serenoli]

By the way, somewhat incidental to this thread, have any of you seen the youtube parody 'How the Lord of the Rings should have ended'?

If you haven't, quick summary, it basically just shows Gandalf and Frodo riding Gwaihir into Mordor, dropping the ring into the fire, and then flying off quick and easy.

A friend of mine (who only watched the movies and whom I therefore count as uninformed on LotR :P) showed me the video, and we both had a laugh, but then he was like, 'yes, seriously, why didnt they do it this way?'

and though I came up with a few reasons (the necessity of being stealthy, the Cracks of Doom not open to the air etc.) it was still a bit difficult to argue it out esp since I haven't read the book in a while.

You guys have any thoughts?

[barrelrider110]

By the way, somewhat incidental to this thread, have any of you seen the youtube parody 'How the Lord of the Rings should have ended'?

If you haven't, quick summary, it basically just shows Gandalf and Frodo riding Gwaihir into Mordor, dropping the ring into the fire, and then flying off quick and easy.

A friend of mine (who only watched the movies and whom I therefore count as uninformed on LotR :P) showed me the video, and we both had a laugh, but then he was like, 'yes, seriously, why didnt they do it this way?'

and though I came up with a few reasons (the necessity of being stealthy, the Cracks of Doom not open to the air etc.) it was still a bit difficult to argue it out esp since I haven't read the book in a while.

You guys have any thoughts?
The aerial drop would have been too open and too risky. You hit upon it Serenoli - stealth was required. That is the kind of attack Sauron would have expected. The eye never sleeps, so they would have been seen from far away, the ringwraiths would have attacked. And what if Frodo missed the crack? Then what? (The visual brings to mind Star Wars and the Death Star). Your friend had a good thought there. I myself have often wondered why two hobbits had the best chance. :confused:

[Attalus]

Every time Sauron took a personal hand in his wars, he got his butt whipped. Staying in the Dark Tower was the practical thing to do. :)Quoted for truth!

[Attalus]

The aerial drop would have been too open and too risky. You hit upon it Serenoli - stealth was required. That is the kind of attack Sauron would have expected. The eye never sleeps, so they would have been seen from far away, the ringwraiths would have attacked. And what if Frodo missed the crack? Then what? (The visual brings to mind Star Wars and the Death Star). Your friend had a good thought there. I myself have often wondered why two hobbits had the best chance. :confused:Besides, Tolkien explicitly states that the Ring could only be destroyed at the Sammath Naur. Orodruin didn't have a caldera, anyway! :)

[Telcontar87]

I remember Tolkien saying in one of his letters that there would have been no point in just having someone fly an eagle with the Ring to Mordor. Basically because the characters needed the meaning of the journey, to grow, etc. (Makes total sense from a writer´s point of view :)

As for Sauron I believe he actually had a physical form during the War of the Ring and that it still was, as described elsewhere, of man shape but somewhat bigger (perhaps smaller than Morgoth). As he was when the Battle of the Last Alliance. Now with 9 fingers though :) He could not adopt any other form anymore, true, but I don´t think he was just "an eye". Gollum saw him. The elves may have seen him flight from Dol Guldur when they attacked him too?

Why not come out and fight? As many of you said, strategy and caution (and a bit of fear too)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Sauron had apparrently decided that overwhelming numbers, massing on every front, and massive reserves, so that the west would be pinned and attritted in place, unable to manuever and unable to support each other, was his route to victory. In his prior wars, he often wound up short an army or two in critical places. Controlling, manuevering, supplying, and supporting these millions of troops all over the continent, including huge forces to prevent rebellions, took up his constant attention.

[Attalus]

I remember Tolkien saying in one of his letters that there would have been no point in just having someone fly an eagle with the Ring to Mordor. Basically because the characters needed the meaning of the journey, to grow, etc. (Makes total sense from a writer´s point of view :)

As for Sauron I believe he actually had a physical form during the War of the Ring and that it still was, as described elsewhere, of man shape but somewhat bigger (perhaps smaller than Morgoth). As he was when the Battle of the Last Alliance. Now with 9 fingers though :) He could not adopt any other form anymore, true, but I don´t think he was just "an eye". Gollum saw him. The elves may have seen him flight from Dol Guldur when they attacked him too?

Why not come out and fight? As many of you said, strategy and caution (and a bit of fear too)
Which letter? I don't recall that.

[Telcontar87]

I don't have the book with me at the moment. All I could find (through online research) is a reference to letter 210, where Tolkien comments on the story-line of a script of LOTR submitted to him, and its treatment.

He says there: "The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness."

And again later: "At the bottom of the page, the Eagles are again introduced. I feel this to be a wholly unacceptable tampering with the tale. 'Nine Walkers' and they immediately go up in the air! The intrusion achieves nothing but incredibility, and the staling of the device of the Eagles when at last they are really needed."

Although this is not what I said I remembered. Once I get hold of the book I will have a good look!

[Attalus]

What is being ignored here is that Orodruin had no caldera; no open crater at the summit. The only access to the Fire that could alone destroy the Ruling Ring was at the Sammath Naur, where Sauron forged it in the first place, a cave in the side of Orodruin.

[GrayMouser]

What is being ignored here is that Orodruin had no caldera; no open crater at the summit. The only access to the Fire that could alone destroy the Ruling Ring was at the Sammath Naur, where Sauron forged it in the first place, a cave in the side of Orodruin.

Still, an eagle could have carried someone to the entrance, no?

[Lefty Scaevola]

As paranoid about security and spies as Sauron was, I am confident that he would have invested in defense against known agencies of his foes, the eagles, other flying creatures of Radaghast, etc and had means to defend his stronghold area against flying spies and incursions. Such, of course, were never mentioned or tested in the books, the eagles not entering Modror until after Sauron's fall. Not having mentioned anywhere such as at the council of Elrond or the meeting of Gandalf and Radagast any sort of arial intelligence of Mordor, when obviously it would have been of crucial importance, is some indicia that it was not practically available (Whereas we do have mention of Radgast's birds tracking the movements of some of Sauron's forces to the East). If arial intelligence is unavailable, arial insertion is less so. Sauron has large flying beasties large enough to carry armored Nazghul, and Saruman has the service of large flocks of crows, it is reasonable to believe that Sauron has forces of flying birds and beasties to defend his critical airspace (I have always imagined killer bats for night patrol, among others). Keep in mind that Sauron controlled a majority of the populations and resources of a Eurasia+Africa size continent.

[Attalus]

Well put, Lefty! I can imagine fewer things that would alarm Sauron more than an i
ncursion by his ancient enemies the Eagles. And, of course, just one troop of Orcs in or around the Sammath Naur would have brought the whole quest to an end. Gandalf and Elrond both stressed the need for secrecy.

[Olmer]

But, maybe Sauron was not that much interested in the Ring?
How come that he never did an extensive search, when he knew very well an aproximate location where to took for his lost jewelry?
How come Saruman (who was really interested in attaining the Ring) sent twice more of his limited "special forces" to ambush all potential ringbearers , while Sauron, having at his hands a limitless troops, sent a "task force' of just 40 inept uruks and did not even bother to secure his border area with patrols to make sure no one try to escape the trap?

[Amanda]

Yeah, Sauron didn't have a magnificent track record when it came to going into battle. He hid from his master as Angband fell, and although he presented himself at the end of the Second Age, he met with a miserable (yet not total) defeat. Sauron's like this kind of person everyone's afraid of, but when you get to know him, you eventually realize that he's more like an angry house cat on steroids. Yeah, he's got an awesome mace and the one ring and can kill about 20 to 50 men in one swing of his mace, but he makes some of the worst mistakes in the history of evil beings bent on world domination. He gains the fear of the people through not much more than his minions -- trolls, the biting flies of Mordor, his current residence which looks to have quite the evil aura about it, the orcs who fight and die just for Sauron's amusement, and last but definitely not least, his Nazgul. It's just something that a being as old and strong as Sauron didn't have much hands-on experience in combat.

[Attalus]

I always think of Sauron as something like an evil bureaucrat: everything has to be just so, like he likes it,a and if it isn't, he throws a hissy-fit/

[Lefty Scaevola]

How come that he never did an extensive search, when he knew very well an aproximate location where to took for his lost jewery? He apparently tried, when he had his HQ at Dol Guldar, but whatever information he had obtained on Isildur's end (apparently less than Saruman had, per a bit from UT), he had no idea that some Hobbits named Smeagol had already found it and was hidning under the Mysty Mountains. He did not learn that part until shortly before the War of the Ring. It would not occur to him that some little person had found it and was using it to occaisionally ambush a goblin in deep caverns. Without it making a more spetacular appearance on the hands of a warrior or king, he would think it was still lost in some swamp somewhere.

[Attalus]

Yes, and here the movie led many people into error, by making it seem that Sauron had loosed the Nine before Bilbo had given the Ring to Frodo. Canonically, it was 17 years before Gandalf returned to Hobbiton to tell Frodo the true nature of his trove. The Nine, Sauron's mightiest servants and some of the few trusty enough to bear the Ring were not sent abroad until about the time of the events related in "The Shadow of the Past" and spent the summer blundering around in the Wild, to Sauron's mounting impatience and wrath. It is hard to remember in these days of GPS and Mapquest that Sauron (and Gollum,!) had little idea where the Shire lay.

[Olmer]

It's just something that a being as old and strong as Sauron didn't have much hands-on experience in combat.
He didn't have to. Only a moron leader would go to the battle ahead of his army.
The art of successful management is to plan strategic moves and let others to accomplish this plans. As I see, Sauron was much wiser than edain. Galadriel, by the way, used the same tactic.
I always think of Sauron as something like an evil bureaucrat: everything has to be just so, like he likes it,a and if it isn't,
He was a perfectionist.:evil: As opposite to his teacher. He tried to create an order on a god forsaken land. But the law of nature (the nature of Valar) to create a chaos. So he have had full hands.
He apparently tried, when he had his HQ at Dol Guldar, but whatever information he had obtained on Isildur's end (apparently less than Saruman had, per a bit from UT),
Something says to me that he didn't try too hard.:evil: But, maybe, because he already had found it?
The reason of such thinking is in the strangeness of a Dol Guldur's account.
Sauron's movements in and out of Dol Guldur are quite interesting. For a thousand years he stayed there, right in the middle of an elves domain an nobody ever bothered him, even knowing that " the power of Dol Guldur grows"(LOTR)
Then a curious Gandalf paid a visit to the fort.
I think that Gandalf's story of this venture is a bit prevaricated; they recognised each other and had some talk. Othervise why the heck Sauron suddenly decided to leave Dol Guldur if he have had a peacefull life over there and did not have any treat?
So, they talked...Probably found that they are sharing related agendas. They made a plan and after a frienly hands (or whatever:rolleyes:)shake each went on their own way. And, seemingly, for 400 years both sides did not make any moves.
Then, suddenly, Sauron comes back to Dol Guldur and - voila!- 3 years later Deagol dived in the gushing flow of the river and found a Ring, which for (suposedly) 2460 years had lain on the riverbed's sand in a plain view. Lay as it fell in the water!
Seems the Ring turned out in a quite unnatural way. Who planted it?:eek:

[Attalus]

Why on Middle-earth would Sauron want to give away the R
ing, his Achilles' heel?

[Olmer]

Why on Middle-earth would Sauron want to give away the Ring, his Achilles' heel?
Who said it was his Achilles heel? Sauron did not say that.
Seems he was quite all right staying without it: travelling around, getting back to his previous healthy shape (he is an ainu after all), redecorating Barad Dur, building up the army, looking for new aliases, ruling the world (most of it)...
Probably after the defeat at Orodruin he came to realization that his idea with rings was like a dud - wouldn't not work (elves refused to use the rings despite having a great loss), but too dangerous for commonners on ME.
So he was wrapping up the project, collecting loose ends and loose rings. After all one never know, what if his homely Barad Dur and Mordor will be turned into another Numenor disaster if he will continue to pursue his
agenda using modifying the law of nature devises.
Besides, probally it downed to him - to rule the word you don't need a magic artifacts. The art of persuasion will make you reach your goals without sacrifices, and this was not a problem, because he was a smooth talker.

So, he needed to start with a clean slate and with such makeover that nobody would suspect a former Dark Lord in a new charming stranger. He needs to leave the stage with a big bang and a lot of witnesses, so nobody forever would have a doubt about his departure.
It could be done only if you will stage the destruction of the Ring. But he couldn't do it all by himself. He needed a help. And here comes Gandalf...

[CAB]

Attalus is absolutely right in referring to the Ring as Sauron's Achilles' heel. It was Sauron's one fatal weakness...the only way he could be destroyed.

Olmer, I always enjoy reading your ideas and look forward to you expanding on this one. I guess you are suggesting that Gandalf and Sauron struck a deal whereby Gandalf could return to Valinor as the hero who defeated Sauron while Sauron would be able to avoid a “Numenor disaster� and take up a new identity? Is that right?

A few starting questions: You speak of the plan involving many witnesses but as I see it there were only two. Was this a failure of the plan?

Was Gollum, the actual destroyer of the Ring, in on the plan?

Wasn't Sauron stuck in his then current form? How could he expect to have a “clean slate� while still residing in such a body?

It seems to me that the Ring must have truly been destroyed. The Nazgul vanished, Orodruin blew up, the holders of the Three surely felt the removal of the influence of the One, Frodo's mind was released, Bilbo suddenly got old, etc. How does this fit with your idea?

[Olmer]

Thanks, Thurin for your interest in my ramblings. This is my way to study Tolkien - you are getting an idea, and then you are poring through the books looking for facts to prove it, or for quotes to disaprove it. Either way it makes reading more interesting.

It was Sauron's one fatal weakness...the only way he could be destroyed.
He can't be destroyed. He was a Maia, one of the original Ainur - the spirits, who shaped Arda by manipulating the physical world.
Though reduced to his raw state, he would still have an ability of creation. Obviously, Sauron put some of his power into the Ring to preserve his created body, but after the destruction of the body his spirit was affected only by a temporal weakness, just like you are geting tired after a hard work day.
So, the destruction of the Ring could reduce him to the spirit, which is, after some recuperation, will be as powerful, as ever.
...you are suggesting that Gandalf and Sauron struck a deal whereby Gandalf could return to Valinor as the hero who defeated Sauron while Sauron would be able to avoid a “Numenor disaster� and take up a new identity?
You've got that right!:thumb:
You speak of the plan involving many witnesses but as I see it there were only two.
Is 7000 of Aragorn's men and "ten times and more than ten times" of Sauron's soldiers at Morannon not enough?:D
Was Gollum, the actual destroyer of the Ring, in on the plan?

No in some way. By the plan the ringbearer should be a hobbit, any hobbit, who can be easily manipulated. So, Deagol was a first choice, but "*** happens". Nobody forsaw the Ring would end up with Smeagol, sly and distrustful fellow, who just disappeared from everybody's field of view, screwing up such a good scheme.
This is why good old Gandalf was periodically sending hobbits on "mad adventures" in hope that kind will find kind. And eventually it worked out.

[Attalus]

After the destruction of the Ring, Tolkien specifically states that Sauron would remain a spirit, unable to take form again.

[Olmer]

After the destruction of the Ring, Tolkien specifically states that Sauron would remain a spirit, unable to take form again.
He just said that Sauron would be ..diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow (Let.#131) He did not say "forever" and he did not say "disappears completely".
Actually, according to Tolkien, he is indestructable.
So, he became a spirit. It his natural form, and with lost of his temporary "body" he is not loosing any knowledge or abilities, he just taking a longer time for recovery of his capacity to act physically .
Note, Gandalf said that Sauron put a great part of his own former power in the Ring, but not ALL his power. He was not such an idiot to trust all his existence into an artifact with dubious qualities (like looking for a new and stronger owner).
The story was greatly exaggerated by Gandalf, who, by the way, at the council of Elrond was talking about any kind of things which this awfull ring can do, but Sauron's destruction was never among them. Maybe the sly old man knew better?
Maybe with destruction of the Ring all Sauron's power was not diminished, but released, and he was able to get it back?
After all Tolkien gives a suggestion of Sauron's return in the future.:eek:

[mithrand1r]

Maybe we can wait for Tolkien to write about Sauron's return. ;)

I enjoy your take on things Olmer. One day, I'll have to look at other works to see if I can do the same as you have done with LOTR.

He just said that Sauron would be ..diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow (Let.#131) He did not say "forever" and he did not say "disappears completely".
Actually, according to Tolkien, he is indestructable.
So, he became a spirit. It his natural form, and with lost of his temporary "body" he is not loosing any knowledge or abilities, he just taking a longer time for recovery of his capacity to act physically .
Note, Gandalf said that Sauron put a great part of his own former power in the Ring, but not ALL his power. He was not such an idiot to trust all his existence into an artifact with dubious qualities (like looking for a new and stronger owner).
The story was greatly exaggerated by Gandalf, who, by the way, at the council of Elrond was talking about any kind of things which this awfull ring can do, but Sauron's destruction was never among them. Maybe the sly old man knew better?
Maybe with destruction of the Ring all Sauron's power was not diminished, but released, and he was able to get it back?
After all Tolkien gives a suggestion of Sauron's return in the future.:eek:

[Olmer]

Thanks, mithrand1r You have to try to look deeper into the story. Ask questions. Makes a lot more interesting to read. :)

Maybe we can wait for Tolkien to write about Sauron's return
Unfortunately, it will be a long wait.:rolleyes:
But, fortunately, at least he left to us some suggestions about upcoming events.:evil: So, we will know what to expect and won't be kept in the dark.

[GrayMouser]

Maybe we can wait for Tolkien to write about Sauron's return. ;)

I enjoy your take on things Olmer. One day, I'll have to look at other works to see if I can do the same as you have done with LOTR.

One interesting case of a writer doing that to her own work is Ursula K. LeGuin in her Earthsea series. The first three -an actual trilogy- show a pretty standard patriarchal fantasy world; 'Tehannu', written 20 years later 'deconstructs' (Oh no, the "D" word!) the earlier world from a feminist viewpoint.

She basically makes the case that all the great and good wizards she wrote about in the first series are just a bunch of narrow-minded power-hungry jerks.

[SonOfSamWise]

I don't know if anyone suggested this yet, but, separated from the one ring, Sauron was in many ways impotent.
What power would a Ringwraith have if separated from his ring?
After Isildur lost the ring, it took Sauron a couple thousand years to cobble together enough of his prostrate energy to even muster together the Ringwraiths for a search and pursuit.
Without the One Ring, Sauron was like the crazy quadraplegic, Mason Verger, from Hannibal, ordering from a wheel chair his slaves, the Nazgul, to do his bidding.