weapons in aman

[afro-elf]

feanor was exiled for drawing his blade

why was there a need for weapons in aman?


i assume elves forged them before the great journey to defend themselves against morogoths creatures

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
feanor was exiled for drawing his blade

why was there a need for weapons in aman?


i assume elves forged them before the great journey to defend themselves against morogoths creatures I believe that after the Elves came to Aman, they were taught this craft by Aule, or at least the Noldor were. I wonder if they may have hunted in Aman. Also, while Morgoth was restricted to Aman, he caused strife between the Elves, so they were always scrapping.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by afro-elf
feanor was exiled for drawing his blade

why was there a need for weapons in aman?


i assume elves forged them before the great journey to defend themselves against morogoths creatures

A bit petty, but Feanor was not really banned just for DRAWING his blade, or?

As for Aman, I think there might have been dangers that needed defending against. For example Ungolianth came from Avathar.

I would guess that Elves had started to learn making swords and use them quite soon after awakening. There where dangers enough also in ME.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Kirinki54 is correct. Feanor's bannishment was for speaking against the Valar. Drawing his sword on Fingolfin was pretty much just the last straw.

[afro-elf]

As for Aman, I think there might have been dangers that needed defending against. For example Ungolianth came from Avathar.


what is avathar

sounds like a avatar with a wisp

[Elvellon]

As it says in the Silmarillion, Avathar means “the Shadows� and is “the forsaken land on the coast of Aman south of the Bay of Eldamar, between the Pelóri (the mountains that protect Aman in it’s East coast ) and the sea, where Melkor met Ungoliant.�
The light of the Two Trees didn´t reach Avathar because the mountains of Pelóri and Ungoliant lived there, in the shadows.

[Ñólendil]

The Elves had some simple weapons that they used on the Great Journey for hunting, and things like that: wooden bows and spears, but weapons of war was something they picked up in Valinor, I believe from Melkor (not Aulë). They had no real need for these things, or they shouldn't have had any need, but Melkor planted his evil seeds in their minds and hearts. The Ñoldor ceased to trust eachother.

[afro-elf]

weren't orcs bred before the great journey?

wouldn't they need weapons to fight?

when then Noldar returned did the elves (the morquendi) have weapons?

[Lelondul]

Interesting to ponder the irony within Melkor's seeds of evil. Sure, the elves commited evil against their own kind, but how many more servants of the enemy were slain at the edge of the very blades that would not have crafted had it not been for Melkor's influence...

[afro-elf]

were the valar blind to melkor's "meddlings"

[Ñólendil]

Good point Lelondul. From the very marring of Melkor great good was born.

The Edhil of Beleriand learned about weapon-craft from the Dwarves, who were a warrior-race.

Melkor's seeds were 'sown in the dark'. When Fëanor drew his sword against his half-brother, it was believed that he himself was the leader of discontent. But when he was brought before the thrones of the Valar, and answered all that was asked of him, it became apparent that Melkor's malice was at work again. Tulkas left the council to lay hands on him immediately, Melkor caught the soonest train out of Valinor and dropped off in a black valley of Avathar, and Feanor was banished from Tirion for a certain amount of time, with his father Finwë, sons, wife and a few others. By this token the lies of Morgoth were made true in seeming: that Fingolfin usurped the rulership of Tirion from the elder line.

The Elves suffered grieviously in their dark days about the lake of Cuiviénen. None the less, the Orcs had greatly declined by the time of the Great Journey, or rather; the servants of Melkor in general had been greatly reduced and had withdrew and the Orcs were in their beginnings. For the Valar had waged war against the Dark Enemy and had felled Utumno, on behalf of the Quendi.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Finwe was not bannished from Tirion. Finwe was upset with the bannishment of Feanor, and joined it, considering himself unkinged. Also, I don't recall Feanor's wife being involved in that either. I thought she had left him before the ban.

[Ñólendil]

I thought someone might say something like that. I was too vague. I meant only that Faenor was banned and some went with him (under no command of the Valar). I was sure about his father, sons and a few others, his wife Nerdanel I was not. You are probably right about her, though the 'leaving' him was only physical, it must be made clear. You and I both know that Elves were not accustomed to short relationships or divorces.

[afro-elf]

For the Valar had waged war against the Dark Enemy and had felled Utumno, on behalf of the Quendi.


who is utumno?

so even though all elves did not go on the great journey the valar kicked some bad guy butt to make ME a litte safer for them?

As it says in the Silmarillion, Avathar means “the Shadows� and is “the forsaken land on the coast of Aman south of the Bay of Eldamar, between the Pelóri (the mountains that protect Aman in it’s East coast ) and the sea, where Melkor met Ungoliant.�

do you think its possibe that the elves COULD have had some battle experience there?

i'm going back to school again this time for genetic engineering

I think I'll get a sample of the prof and rejuvenate him so we can have all of our questions answered :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Utumno was Morgoth's first stronghold, built in the nortern regions of Middle-earth.

[afro-elf]

SGH

concerning finrod, i see where by confusion arose

you made a statement, something like " i don't wanna be his sister"

I took it to mean you did not like him

as opposed to " i don't wanna be his sister cos i wanna be his wife"

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
SGH

concerning finrod, i see where by confusion arose

you made a statement, something like " i don't wanna be his sister"

I took it to mean you did not like him

as opposed to " i don't wanna be his sister cos i wanna be his wife" There ya go!!!!:D

[Bacchus]

Coming back to weapons...

As I recall, Feanor was the first to craft swords. He learned metalsmithing from (?)Mahtar(?), his father in law, who later regretted all that he had taught Feanor regarding the working of metals.

The whispered lies of Melkor convinced Feanor that he needed weapons to defend himself. Working in secret, he crafted fell swords for himself and his sons.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Bacchus
Coming back to weapons...

As I recall, Feanor was the first to craft swords. He learned metalsmithing from (?)Mahtar(?), his father in law, who later regretted all that he had taught Feanor regarding the working of metals.

The whispered lies of Melkor convinced Feanor that he needed weapons to defend himself. Working in secret, he crafted fell swords for himself and his sons. Nice to see you Bacchus. Didn't Feanor and Co. stockpile these weapons in Formenos?

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Nice to see you Bacchus. Didn't Feanor and Co. stockpile these weapons in Formenos?

Hello, SGH, good to see you.

I do believe that you are correct regarding the stockpiling of weapons in Formenos. As I recall, Feanor was there for 12 years of the Trees--not an insignificant length of time.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Bacchus


Hello, SGH, good to see you.

I do believe that you are correct regarding the stockpiling of weapons in Formenos. As I recall, Feanor was there for 12 years of the Trees--not an insignificant length of time. I was wondering what the purpose was? Did he plan on a war with his own people in Aman? Or was it in anticipation of something else. Elves were very forsighted. It never states that Feanor had forsight of the Exile or the battle at Alqualonde?

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I was wondering what the purpose was? Did he plan on a war with his own people in Aman? Or was it in anticipation of something else. Elves were very forsighted. It never states that Feanor had forsight of the Exile or the battle at Alqualonde?

Interesting...

Let's think about this...

We know that Melkor planted the thought that Fingolfin intended to usurp his position. We also know that during the exile at Formenos, Fingolfin governed at Tirion, thus making Melkor's lies seem true. I do not, however think that at this time Feanor forsaw the Kinslaying or the Exile, nor do I think that he truly intended to use the weapons beyond possibly as a means of intimidation.

The loss of the Silmarils and his father, in my opinion, was totally unforseen by Feanor, and was the final deciding factor in Feanor's crossing the line between threatening violence and actually delivering it.

[Ñólendil]

Mahtan is the name you were looking for Bacchus, you were off by one letter. Late in his life Tolkien either forgot about 'Mahtan' or was unhappy with it, as he wondered whether the character's name was Sarmo.

[Bacchus]

Thank you, sir. I couldn't decide between the two, and didn't have the book handy.

[rashbold]

No, Fëanor was not the first to forge weapons, and I believe that applied to swords as well. We have to remember that even even during the Great March from Cuiviénen the servants of Melkor-Morgoth had harried them on the way, and it was Oromë who instructed them with their making and their use. That is why the Eldar had words for certain metals they have had use for, seen in the Common Eldarin roots ANGA "iron", URUN "copper", MALAT "gold" and KJELEP "silver". (Peoples of Middle-earth, p. 366).

[Elvellon]

I may be wrong but wasn’t Feanor the first to create swords? (and not weapons in general).

[Bacchus]

My assertion was that Feanor was the first to forge swords. I also pointed out that I was working from memory. I do not have the books handy at the moment to check this, however.

[Elvellon]

Oh, I misunderstood that, sorry.

[Eru]

I am going to apologize in advance for this lengthy post, but this thread has intrigued me. It is full of so many different facets of a very small part of this history.

The Silmarillion, Of The Silmarils, Page 69:

"And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears. Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and kindreds that vied one with another; and these only they wore abroad, and of other weapons they did not speak for each believed that he alone had received the warning. And Feanor made a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempered fell swords for himself and for his sons, and made tall helms with plumes of red. Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned of Aule."

It is certain from this that the concept of weapons of war and of destruction were learnt from Melkor. The lore of metalwork abetted this knowledge but was not responsible for it. And while it seems obvious that Orome would have taught the Eldar how to defend themselves before or during the march to the West, there is no mention of it in the Silmarillion.

With regard to why the Noldor thought they needed weapons, Inoldonil was right. Melkor played upon the jealousies between Feanor and Fingolfin: "and whispers came to Feanor that Fingolfin and his sons were plotting to usurp the leadership of Finwe and of the elder line of Feanor, and to supplant them by the leave of the Valar; for the Valar were ill-pleased that the Silmarils lay in Tirion and were not committed to their keeping. But to Fingolfin and Finarfin it was said: Beware! Small love has the proud son of Miriel ever had for the children of Indis ... It will not be long before he drives you forth .."

There was no foresight of the theft of the Silmarils involved. Nor was it ever said that the intent of Feanor/Fingolfin and Co's. were evil and they desired to wage war upon one another. I think it was merely good old fashioned rivalry, warped out of all proportion.

Afro-elf, to help with a couple of your questions:

"Were the Valar blind to Melor's meddlings?" The answer, I believe, lies in the description of Orome's wonder when first he sights the Firstborn: "And Orome looking upon the Elves was filled with wonder, as though they were beings sudden and marvellous and unforeseen; for so it shall ever be with the Valar. From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown invision from afar, to those who enter verily into Ea each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold." In other words, the Valar had no precognition that Melkor would be so deceitful, and as beings of utter goodness, they had no concept of evil and therefore could not begin to guess what Melkor might do.

"So even though all elves did not go on the great journey the valar kicked some bad guy butt to make ME a litte safer for them?"

Not necessarily. Initially the Valar waged war upon the fortresses of Melkor because "Manwe said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Iluvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor.'" After they won, they held another council, to decide the fate of the Quendi , during which some "thought the Quendi should be free to walk Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts. But the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk .." So, the 'kicking of some bad guy butt' was done for the sake of all the Quendi, and not just for those who decided not to take up the march into the West. There is no doubt however, that those left behind still had to deal with many dangers left over from Melkor's reign.

Hope these quotes help in some way.

**PS - can someone with greater computer knowledge than I please tell me how to switch into the second keyboard so I can do all the umlauts and graves and acutes and every other squiggly thing so necessary when writing about Middle-earth? Please?

[afro-elf]

i just read in the SIL that thingol got weapons from the dwarves because they did not need them before the return of melkor


and that the green elves had no "STEEL" being a wood land folk

and that when feanor assaulted the havens that the teleri had mostly bows

it seems that since tolkien's elves were hunters they had hunting weapons spear and bow


it seems that they did not have steel but that still leaves bronze and iron weapons

but i think the noldor and dwarves where the first weapons of war forgers

[Ñólendil]

Welcome Eru! Bold name choice. You can use diacritics by pushing numlock, holding down alt and pressing numbers on the numeric pad on the right of your key-board. Thus, with numlock on, holding down ALT and pressing 132 will get you: ä. Here's a list:

á Alt+160
Ã* Alt+161
ó Alt+162
ú Alt+163
é Alt+130
ä Alt+132
ë Alt+137
ï Alt+139
Ä Alt+142
ö Alt+148
Ö Alt+153
¿ Alt+168
Þ Alt+0222
þ Alt+0254
æ ALT + 145
Æ Alt + 146
É Alt + 144
ê Alt + 136
î Alt + 140
ô Alt + 147
û Alt + 150
ñ Alt + 164
Ñ Alt + 165

[rashbold]

Unfortunately, much of the published Silmarillion is but one of many versions Tolkien wrote over the years. As for weapons, take note of this note in The Peoples of Middle-earth p. 366:

The Eldar had words for some metals, because under Oromë's instruction they had devised weapons against Morgoth's servants especially on the March, but the only ones that appear in all Eldarin languages were iron, copper, gold and silver (ANGA, URUN, MALAT, KJELEP). (Italics mine).

This pretty much makes it explicit in my opinion.

[afro-elf]

thanks that says it all

[Eru]

Originally posted by rashbold
[B]Unfortunately, much of the published Silmarillion is but one of many versions Tolkien wrote over the years.

Thanks for pointing that out, Rashbold. Trouble is, I first read the LoTR and TS when a child and looooooong before any of the HoME series were published (no snide remarks about age, please). And before the Books of Lost Tales were released too. So in my mind, The Silmarillion was the definitive Tolkien life work (albeit posthumously edited and published by CT), and many of the books published since, by CT et al, (excepting the Lost Tales I and II) were simply complilations of notes and essays he wrote whilst struggling to complete The Silmarillion, despite CT himself saying otherwise.

I guess the point is there are so many conflictions between all the books, and Tolkien himself confessed to changing his mind many times about so many aspects of Middle-earth, that it would be hard to say which publication could be entirely relied upon.

And many thanks, Inoldonil, for the tip and the welcome. The name choice stemmed from expediency and a need for something easy to remember. I was surprised to find it had not been taken!

**Edited to add:**

If the name offends, I would be happy to change it.

[Ñólendil]

It certainly doesn't offend me. Naming oneself 'the One' is simply a bit comical, you must admit! Especially since you only wanted a name you could remember. There's another poster on Entmoot named The Dagda, and that's not much different.

[anuvial]

all all

Hello all,
i go by the name of tarumbar,and i was wondering what was the greatest sword ever forged and by whom,where and why is it the greatest?.I am new here so i don't know any one so please reply.
yours curiously,
tarumbar(anuvial).:confused: