What about Gil-Galad????????

[ArwenEvenstar]

On the Elf reincarnation thing (that's how I refer to the Elves feas coming back....) What about Gil-Galad? Wasn't he just as good as Glorfindel? or did he choose to stay there... Or did Manwe or Mandos (can't remember which at the moment) find out about a scandel or something.... How come he didn't come back? Or is that just how Tolkien decided it...... Because he came back to ME that would totally be a BIG help to the Free Peoples of Middle Earth!!!

I'm open to everyones theorys:)

[Sister Golden Hair]

I can't be positive, but I would think that Gil-galad was probably re- embodied and returned to Valinor as did most of the Elves that died or were slain. Glorfindel is the only one that ever returned to Middle-earth. I do not know if it was a choice not to return, or if it was forbidden by the Valar once they were released from Mandos. But, Tolkien says in the Silmarillion I believe, that none of the ones that lived in Middle-earth, with the acception of Glorfindel, chose to return to the outer lands because of their prior lifes griefs. This statement was made in reference to the Great Battle at the end of the First Age. The Hosts of the Valar came to overthrow Morgoth. That was mostly Vanyarin Elves that had never been to Middle-earth, but none of the re-embodied Elves wished to return.

[Ñólendil]

Was this topic perhaps meant to be a response to another post in a thread?

Glorfindel was not the only Elf to return to Middle-earth from Aman. All Elves could return, if their home had been there (and if they 'passed the judgement' as one might say). I suppose it's quite possible that Glorfindel was the only Elf to return during the Second Age, but I don't think this is certainly said. Probably in the Third Age none did.

Many of the Elves who had died before the Great Journey did not desire to return, not even to the Living, and remained in Mandos. (I think this sort of info. can be found in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, published in Morgoth's Ring). In fact it appears that all Elves before the Journey did this. In the long Ages after the Journey and before the Ñoldorin Rebellion, there were probably Eldar returning to Middle-earth after 'death'.

Other wise I'd say you're right on the money Sister.

It is important to remember I think that Gil-Galad died after Glorfindel returned. Glorfindel returned to Middle-earth in II 1600 (the Year of Dread when the One Ring was forged), while Gil-galad died in the War of the Last Alliance, which marked the ending of that Age. This was after the Change of the World, when it was highly unlikely (as said above) that any Elves would return to Middle-earth from Aman. Gil-galad thus was perhaps not given a choice to return.

[Agburanar]

If I were Gil-Galad I'd stay away from Middle Earth, too many bad vibes. He probably stayed in Mandos.

[Thorondor]

I don't have the refernece handy, but I believe that the "reincarnation" of Glorfindal was somewhat "accidental". At the time the LOTR was written, Tolkien had no idea that his writings on the earlier ages would ever be published. When he needed an appropriate name for a great elf lord, he used one from his earlier writing. When the Sil was being prepared for publication he came up against the problem of two Glorfindals, and decided to make them one person, reincarnated to Middle Earth.

The implication is that had he known that the Sil would be published, he would have used a different name in the LOTR. Reincarnation to Middle Earth seemes to be something he wanted to discourage.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
I suppose it's quite possible that Glorfindel was the only Elf to return during the Second Age, but I don't think this is certainly said. Probably in the Third Age none did.


A slight twist to the subject (and likely a very tired and flogged horse :) ):

Could there (as I think is hinted in LotR) have been any connection between Luthien and Arwen?

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Thorondor
At the time the LOTR was written, Tolkien had no idea that his writings on the earlier ages would ever be published. When he needed an appropriate name for a great elf lord, he used one from his earlier writing. When the Sil was being prepared for publication he came up against the problem of two Glorfindals, and decided to make them one person, reincarnated to Middle Earth.

That is of course consistent with many known facts about the process in which Tolkien produced his myths.

Another way to interpret the process would be to say Tolkien simply discovered new facts or laws of nature in the universe he had created...

[Wayfarer]

I actually prefer to look at it that way, as otherwise we have no possibility of 'filling in the gaps'.1

[Agburanar]

Yeah, it's good to imagine the creator didn't know everything about Middle Earth, it gives us room to add our ideas.

[Lord_Ov_The_Thunder]

Originally posted by Kirinki54


A slight twist to the subject (and likely a very tired and flogged horse :) ):

Could there (as I think is hinted in LotR) have been any connection between Luthien and Arwen?

Actually there is a connection between them... Luthien was Arwen's great grandmother... Arwen is daughter of Elrond, son of Earendil and Elwing, Elwing was daughter of Dior who is the son of Beren and Luthien!

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Lord_Ov_The_Thunder


Actually there is a connection between them... Luthien was Arwen's great grandmother... Arwen is daughter of Elrond, son of Earendil and Elwing, Elwing was daughter of Dior who is the son of Beren and Luthien!

Certainly... But is there not also talk of Luthien being reborn as Arwen? Perhaps I just remember incorrectly...:confused:

[Lightice]

Well, Arwen can't be reborn Luthien.
Luthien chose the Fate of the Man and became mortal, just as Arwen did later, and mortals don't get rebirth.
Plus that Arwen was born in Middle Earth. She didn't come there from Valinor.

[Wayfarer]

Elves don't get born, they get new full grown bodies, like the valar do when they become incarnate (only much less, according to their stature)

[Wayfarer]

correction: elves don't get REborn.

[Lightice]

Well, that is what I meant with rebirth.
I'm sorry, if you understood my phrase incorrectly, but english ain't my native tongue.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Lightice
I'm sorry, if you understood my phrase incorrectly, but english ain't my native tongue.

Really? You speak it like a native! :D

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Lightice
Well, Arwen can't be reborn Luthien.
Luthien chose the Fate of the Man and became mortal, just as Arwen did later, and mortals don't get rebirth.
Plus that Arwen was born in Middle Earth. She didn't come there from Valinor.

Well, Tolkien might have created a special rule for Luthien... And forgot to ever essay on it. Or did he? :) Aragorn was certainly fooled at first anyway!

True, Arwen was born in Middle Earth. So was Luthien.

[Ñólendil]

As you guessed, Tolkien covered the subject *flips through Letters*

Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. Letter #153, a draft to Peter Hastings.

[Agburanar]

Alike but not the same. I agree.

[noldorlord]

I thought that though there is a Glorfindel in Lotr and the silmarrillion it does not mean they are the same elf. Glorfindel in the Silmarrilion died in the retreat from Gondolin. Then in the lotr there is another Glorfindel. Having the same name does not make them the same.

[afro-elf]

Agburanar

Yeah, it's good to imagine the creator didn't know everything about Middle Earth, it gives us room to add our ideas.

That is great for RPG's. I get to be a Baranavar.

Lightice what is your native tongue?

To Noldarlord


Originally posted by Thorondor
At the time the LOTR was written, Tolkien had no idea that his writings on the earlier ages would ever be published. When he needed an appropriate name for a great elf lord, he used one from his earlier writing. When the Sil was being prepared for publication he came up against the problem of two Glorfindals, and decided to make them one person, reincarnated to Middle Earth.

[bropous]

I would have to say as well that the Glorfindel in the First Age is not the same as the one in the Second and Third. Although it was uncommon for Elves to use be names of previous ones, I do believe in this case this is what occurred, that a younger elf was given the name of the prior elf-Lord.

However, I can find no writings from Tolkien so far which would clear up this issue. Has anyone else? All I can find is that when the House of Elrond comes to Gondor, Glorfindel is intimated as of that House, and yet the original Glorfindel would have been of the House of Turgon.

One must look also at the name Gildor, shared by both one of the twelve companions of Beren, and the elf the hobbits met whilst still in the Shire. not the same person, as far as I can discern.

[noldorlord]

To Light ice
It is of my own opinion whether there are two Glorfindels or not. As Bropous says, there is nothing in the books that clear the matter up. therefore I think that my view is right. And you think that your view is right. It is how we ourselves percieve the books, not what others think, unless there is over riding evidence, in which i am willing to accept that the Glorfindels in the Sil and Lotr are the same.

Noldorlord

[Sister Golden Hair]

Michael Martinez has talked about this extensively. He points out something to the effect that Elves did reuse names. However the name Glorfindel was so striking that it would not have been reused. Therefore, the Golrfindel of Gondolin, and the Glorfindel of Imladris are most likely the same Elf.
I think also that the Glorfindel of the Third age possessed some very unique powers that other Elves did not possess. In "Flight to the Ford, Frodo was entering the wraith world due to his wound, and when the Fellowship was confronted by the Nine Riders, I believe there was something about he could no longer see his friends, but he could see Glorfindel in both worlds or something like that

[bropous]

noldorlord, I forgot, so here it is now: Welcome to the Moot!

SisterGoldenHair, I am not sure sure that Mr. Martinez is a very good source, as the fellow was so incensed over the use of smoking in the film, he completely forgot that pipe-weed was quite a pervasive presence in the Hobbits' and others' cultures in the books. Now, don't get me wrong, the fellow DOES get some things right, but I think he allows his own personal prejudices [only in the original, pure definition of the word] to color his perceptions of the Master's world.

Also, I do believe that when we rely upon the words of others, aside from those written by the Master himself, we fall prey to "poor scholarship" [and I use the term advisedly]. Mr. Martinez is far from a primary source, and since we are discussing directly the writings of Mr. Tolkien, we should stick to his, and only his, words in supporting our arguments in defense of, or contrary to, the Master's works.

As for his assertion that Glorfindel IS the same in the Third Age as the Elf who died at the Fall of Gondolin, I double-dog-dare him to find ONE shred of evidence from the published works of Tolkien, including his letters, to support his OPINION, for that is exactly what he has espoused, and nothing more. I can find no supporting evidence to back up his claim, and if he has attempted to put this forward as fact, he is far more guilty of "poor scholarship" than I think he already is.

All I can do is formulate just as baseless an opinion, and I put forth that my assertion that Glorfindel in LotR is a different Elf than the one who dies in the Fall of Gondolin is strictly that, opinion, and nothing more, for I am unable to find, in the primary source, ANY evidence to back it up.

Michael Martinez is no more an authority on the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien than is ANY of us. The only trustworthy authority on the writings on Tolkien, aside from John Ronald himself, is his son, Christopher. If he is game to show me which primary source he can cite to back up his assertions, then I will politely admit his mastery, on this one aspect alone, and issue a heartfelt apology.

Please don't take this the wrong way, SisterGoldenHair. I have enjoyed reading your prior posts, and will continue to do so!

[Sister Golden Hair]

No problem bropous. Let me just say that for myself, I believe that Glorfindel 1st age, and Glorfindel 3rd age, are one in the same. Also, I believe Michael's remarks concerning the reuse of Elven names was from a letter of J.R.R.'s, but only he could tell you which one, and I agree that only the Master himself can answer certian questions definatively ie do Balrogs have wings? Do elves have pointy ears? Are there two Glorfindels, and so on. Let me just say this: I have found Michael Martinez' post, and his essays to be very informative and helpful. As for his scholarship, I think it is safe to say that he is more informed than some and not as informed as others, but he certainly knows more than I, and I trust his opinion and have relied on him to fill in a number of blanks for me. I look forward to buying his book at some point and will continue to frequent his forum. I have learned a lot from him.

[afro-elf]

I can agree with both of you.

bropous you asked for Mike's evidence it is here:

It may be fairly said that the relationship between the two Glorfindels is not obvious. In fact, it's really not clear to many people who have studied the matter for decades.

...the revelation in

THE RETURN OF THE SHADOW

that "years later, long after the publication of The Lord of the Rings" J.R.R. Tolkien decided after much thought that Glorfindel of Rivendell was actually Glorfindel of Gondolin returned from the dead,


I think the return of the shadow is in HoME but I might me wrong.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
I can agree with both of you.

bropous you asked for Mike's evidence it is here:

It may be fairly said that the relationship between the two Glorfindels is not obvious. In fact, it's really not clear to many people who have studied the matter for decades.

...the revelation in

THE RETURN OF THE SHADOW

that "years later, long after the publication of The Lord of the Rings" J.R.R. Tolkien decided after much thought that Glorfindel of Rivendell was actually Glorfindel of Gondolin returned from the dead,


I think the return of the shadow is in HoME but I might me wrong. You are correct afro-elf. It is Vol6 of the HoMe. Thank you.

[bropous]

Fair enough, SistergoldenHair, and I'd certainly not want to dissuade you from the purchase of Martinez' book, although maybe "Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" might be a better purchase. *wink!* Actually, if you haven't read it, "Letters" is a wonderful insight into Tolkien's creative process. Please forgive me if I presume to much as to what you have read so far...[bowing respecfully]

Thanks, O afro-elf, for the clarification, and I will endeavour to find "Return of the Shadow" and find for myself whether the quote holds up. However, if it is only secondary or tertiary sourcing, and not directly from the writings of Tolkien, I would hold to my assertion the hypothesis has not graduated to the realm of theory, and that the only differentiation between the two hypotheses is speculative, whether it is his that they are the same, or my equally unsubstantiated one that they are different people. Fair enough? :)

[bropous]

and just in the interests of full disclosure, my research on this subject has been limited to the works of Tolkien on hand, i.e., Hobbit, LotR, Silmarillion, and Letters of JRR Tolkien. Admittedly I have not the benefit of other writings by Tolkien available.

[afro-elf]

Let me know if the quote holds up if you find it.

MAYBE, if you tell SHG that you think Finrod is the best character in the books and that Tolkien with Calaquendi foresight based Amarie upon her,she might tell you exact page if she has the books herself.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
Let me know if the quote holds up if you find it.

MAYBE, if you tell SHG that you think Finrod is the best character in the books and that Tolkien with Calaquendi foresight based Amarie upon her,she might tell you exact page if she has the books herself. Your such a funny guy afro-elf, but sorry, that won't work. I only have 3 Vol of the HoMe, and none of them are Vol 6. Umm, bropous, I do want to get the Letters of Tolkien. I have some other books right now that are of a bigger priorty to me. Namely the Peoples of Middle-earth, th Lays of Beleriand, and the War of the Jewels, but I will get the letters. OH! and if you like, you can say all those things afro-elf said:)

[bropous]

But of course, SisterGoldenHar, mais bien sur...

What afro-elf said! ;)

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by bropous
noldorlord, I forgot, so here it is now: Welcome to the Moot!

SisterGoldenHair, I am not sure sure that Mr. Martinez is a very good source, as the fellow was so incensed over the use of smoking in the film, he completely forgot that pipe-weed was quite a pervasive presence in the Hobbits' and others' cultures in the books.

On what did you base this load of nonsense, Bropous?

And Mr. Martinez does tend to quote the book, rather than just cook up wild theories about whether Elves reused names.

Poor scholarship disguises itself in the type of ad hominem attacks you apparently prefer to engage in. Given that you're quite willing to diss someone behind their back, I suggest you are the more unreliable source than I.

J.R.R. Tolkien concluded the two Glorfindels were the same person, and the essay where he drew the conclusion is published in The Peoples of Middle-earth, suitably titled "Glorfindel", so that even an immature flamer with nothing better to do with his time but parade around forums in a completely idiotic fashion can find it simply by checking the table of contents (look for "Last Writings").

If you're going to call into question anyone's scholarship, I suggest you wait until you establish some credibility before making the attempt again.

[Ñólendil]

Bropous is injured I guess from not owning the HoMe and only reading your posts (Michael) in the tobacco thread.

If it's worth anything Bropous, I can assure you that MM is at least one of the most knowledgeable people you'll find on the Internet or elsewhere, outside the Tolkien Estate, as far as Tolkien's works goes. I don't know anyone who knows more, but that doesn't mean much. It's usually Michael that informs people how credible someone is, not me!

But Bropous isn't an immature flamer and he doesn't parade around the forums idiotically. He's actually a nice guy that doesn't flame much at all and he's rightly respected around here. He just hasn't read the Peoples of Middle-earth, isn't very familiar with Michael Martinez, heard someone say 'the two Glorfindels are the same', observed that Glorfindel died in The Silmarillion, remembered your words on tobacco and made a conclusion. That's not very fair, but he's not an immature flamer.

[bropous]

Excuse me, Michael, you can HARDLY claim I "dissed" [sic] you behind your back, as I discussed my disagreements with you and your "scholarship," or lack thereof, in an open, public forum, for all to see, including Your Holiness. No slinking and hiding here. Criticism non-sequitur. Do you need a definition?

I stand behind my assertion, Michael, that your original review of the Jackson film, in which your rant against the evils of smoking completely ignored the fact that smoking tobacco-like substances was very much present in most cultures in Middle-Earth destroyed the credibility of your arguments, was wrapped in prejudices and ignored the simple facts of the text. You got in your pulpit to rage against tobacco and ignored the fact that Tolkien himself put it there in the story, and that Jackson FAITHFULLY included it in the film. I also took issue with you basically labelling Peter Jackson as some sort of prostitute for the tobacco industry in his film. SOURCE: Your thread, "My Review Posted At suite 101"

Again, I have said this in public, for all to see, including yourself, but you can't apparently match me point for point, and must fall into the trap of insult and hyperbole. Bet you're one HECK of an author, bro'.

As far as ad-hominem comments, your post stands as par exemplar. I took issue with you as an "expert" on Middle-Earth, of which I have seen ample evidence you are not, and gave quite reasoned arguments why I so declared. Your resorting to whining personal attacks like "immature flamer" just shows to all you are simply that which you deem to call others,and that you simply cannot argue your way out of a wet paper bag without resorting to the use of sharp objects. Bad form, Mr. Scholar.

As for your statement that Tolkien himself stated that Glorfindel WAS the same person at the Fall of Gondolin and in the Third Age, I said if it were proven to me that he did so, in a PRIMARY source, Michael, I would apologize, and I am a man of my word. I will certainly look at this tome and determine myself whether you are correct; I will in no way take YOUR word for it. If you are correct, which I sincerely doubt, I will stand up and apologize, again, in this PUBLIC forum, which apparently you feel is somehow surreptitious and secretive. Issue unmoot.

Judging from both your uninteresting and self-indulgent attacks upon anyone who disagrees with you, or calls into question your authority on the subject at hand, I will state quite unequivocally that your "book" on Middle Earth is probably not worth the paper it is printed upon. If this is the best you can do in answering your detractors then I'd not even trust what you would claim as a "direct quote from the source" without verifying the veracity thereof for myself.

Were you more capable of handling yourself in a mature, rational manner, I might have a bit of a change in opinion of you and your works, but I rest assured in the comfort of the knowledge this possibility is highly unlikely. Flame away, all you are doing is proving to all, in public, your own lack of maturity and reasoning skills. Some may agree with me, and that's fair, and some will disagree with me, and that's fair, too.

But don't cringe and whine that I have insulted you "behind your back." Start with a non-sequitur and ALL your assertions are colored with the same hues. Your arguments [which only laughingly fit the definition of the word] have as solid a foundation as a house of cards.

Cogitum, ergo whine, Michael?

[Scarfair]

Please allow me to intrude, briefly.

I do not wish to call anyone's scholarship or loremastery into question, nor my own; For those who seek answer to the subject of Glorfindel made twin, and if the luxury of a copy HoME and other, further, resource materials are momentarily unavailable, I would refer all to FotR, book II, chapter one: Many Meetings, pg 294. The reference: Gandalf speaking-"Yes, you saw him (Glorfindel) for a moment as he is on the otherside: one of the Mighty Firstborn..." Wouldn't this statement made by Gandalf settle such arguments, as 'The Firstborn' was a title treated to only those 'Firstborn' elves of the 'First Age'?

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Scarfair
Please allow me to intrude, briefly.

I do not wish to call anyone's scholarship or loremastery into question, nor my own; For those who seek answer to the subject of Glorfindel made twin, and if the luxury of a copy HoME and other, further, resource materials are momentarily unavailable, I would refer all to FotR, book II, chapter one: Many Meetings, pg 294. The reference: Gandalf speaking-"Yes, you saw him (Glorfindel) for a moment as he is on the otherside: one of the Mighty Firstborn..." Wouldn't this statement made by Gandalf settle such arguments, as 'The Firstborn' was a title treated to only those 'Firstborn' elves of the 'First Age'?

The Firstborn are all of the Elves. Tolkien made up a slew of names for Elves, Men, and Dwarves. Some of the names for Men and Dwarves (given to them by the Elves) are somewhat unflattering. The Elven names, on the other hand, are mostly positive, bright, and cheerful.

The Elves understood the power of marketing. :)

[bropous]

Inoldonil, I respectfully bow to your defense, and do wish I had read your post prior to hitting "Submit Reply" on my response to Michael. Perhaps had I done so, I may have taken a quite different tack.

Michael, it is true, I have NOT read "Peoples of Middle Earth", and when I do so, as soon as I possibly can read it, if I find that I am wrong and you are right, I will, as I stated, apologize quite publically.

I do admit my exposure to your writings are exactly as Inoldonil eloquently and correctly stated, and I must admit I have made a rash and non-informed opinion of your book based on that exposure. Right here in public, Michael, I do apologize for that, for I did not give you a chance. In that I was wrong.

I am willing to chalk this up to incomplete data, on BOTH our parts, and offer to bury the hatchet here and now, and not in each other's forehead.

Writing a book is a tremendously difficult task, one which requires dedication, hard work and, if it is a work of literary comment or criticism, research and sourcing. Since I have not read your book, a product of your hard work, I have been guilty of shooting down that of which I know not. Bad form for ME. Again, in public, I apologoze, and can at least give you the consideration that you reacted in defense of your hard work. Again, I was wrong, and I would take back that with which I have so hastily, and angrily, polluted this forum.

I learn each and every day on this forum, Michael, and admit I make plenty mistakes. I have, in this matter, made a grave mistake and ask you to forgive an uneducated opinion of you and your book, publicly, and without resentment on my part.

I will even go so far as to give your book a FAIR reading when I am able to do so, which is much more than I was originally willing to do. I learned a long time ago it is a mark of a good man to admit his mistakes. I admit here and now I made a hasty mistake in your case. Shake?

[Michael Martinez]

Unlike you, Bropous, I am in command of all the facts, especially regarding tobacco use both in the book and in movies.

[Scarfair]

Michael,
True, in the manner of encompassing titles, 'Firstborn' was used to denote the elves, however my reference to the Gandalf qoute is used because of Tolkien's use of context. Gandalf was speaking of Glorfindel specifically, thus contexting the phrase 'Firstborn' to him, and not as the more widely used title created to encompass the race. Thus one can fairly allude to this use of the title by Tolkien as a personal monikker that would indeed, stand for only those mighty Elves that came in the 'First' age. Tolkien's use here, as such, can only be as personal title, he is too good of a writer to misuse context otherwise. There are no other trips to such a line in his narrative, so I am led to the conclusion that this use was intentional.

-Scar

[afro-elf]

Come on Mike, shake his hand.


I respect BOTH of you and I think that it was a misunderstanding.


Bropous has offered a truce. And an eloquent one at that.

PLEASE DO NOT LET HUBRIS RUIN IT.


If he has come this far, can you please do the same.


I believe that you two would be better aimed at disscusing your differences for the enjoyment andbenefit to all here.

Don't waste allies just because you don't agree.


Hell, if tesseract 12 and I can ammend things, certainly, you two can.

[afro-elf]

Unlike you, Bropous, I am in command of all the facts, especially regarding tobacco use both in the book and in movies.

Wow! Mike is the Eru of tobacco:p

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
Unlike you, Bropous, I am in command of all the facts, especially regarding tobacco use both in the book and in movies.

Wow! Mike is the Eru of tobacco:p afro-elf, I know you know that he's being sarcastic.

At this point, I would just like to appoligize to Michael and bropous. I feel that I initiated this entire argument. I think that bropous has adequately appoligised to Michael, but I also think that Michael has been seriously offended. Sometimes sorry is not enough until a cooling off period occurrs.

My opinion of Michael's scholarship is based entirely on my exposure to his forum and works. I have found that there are very few people if any on the net with the knowledge of Tolkien that he possesses. I think it is safe to say, that to be able to write a book on Tolkien's world, and have it published, is a true testiment to scholarship. I can't say that I have always agreed with Michael's opinion every time, but I can say that I respect it, and that he is probably more entitled to it than I am mine, for the simple fact that he is much more learned in this area than I am. In other words, I probably trust his opinion more than my own, even if he can be opinionated at times, and let's face it, there are certian things in Tolkien's works that we will never have the answers to. therefore our opinions can not be wrong or right, they just are.

brpopous, I think you have done all you can, and I would be patient. I am sure you and Michael will patch it up.


Again fellows, I am truely sorry if I was the cause of this falling out.

[bropous]

SisterGoldenHair, thanks deeply for that sincere acceptance of blame upon yourself, but of that blame you have no share. It was I who was to blame for taking hits at the person in question, and though I did throw down my sword and offer it as a plowshare, your suggestion it may take some time for him to cool down is a sound one. I will keep that in mind.

afro-elf, thanks also for the peacemaking, and I agree that Michael and I would do a far greater service to the group in discussing our differences in opinion intelligently. I have every confidence, in the fullness of time, the situation will be exactly that.

Best to you both!

[afro-elf]

Quick question. Doesn't this symbol :p mean Iam teasing you?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
Quick question. Doesn't this symbol :p mean Iam teasing you? I understood that from you afro-elf. I just wondered if you understood that from him. He sounded serious but...

[afro-elf]

Alas, the weakness of non verbal communication.

All is well in the Shire again.

[Earniel]

I apologize firstly because I fear I might stir up a whole new war on the board here. But I STILL don't know whether there are 2 Glorfindels or just one. If there is only one then that's rather cheap don't you think? (not to mention that I'm in deep **** then)

So can anyone PLEASE explain it to me short and simple?(English is not my mothertongue and I ain't one of te brightest people on earth here) I'm asking for facts here and I would also like to know where you read that. Please have mercy on the poor confused under-educated student that I am...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I apologize firstly because I fear I might stir up a whole new war on the board here. But I STILL don't know whether there are 2 Glorfindels or just one. If there is only one then that's rather cheap don't you think? (not to mention that I'm in deep **** then)

So can anyone PLEASE explain it to me short and simple?(English is not my mothertongue and I ain't one of te brightest people on earth here) I'm asking for facts here and I would also like to know where you read that. Please have mercy on the poor confused under-educated student that I am... I wouldn't say that it's cheap. I think it fits in nicely with Tolkien's idea of the re-embodiment of the Elves, and the nature of their fate of living as long as the world lives.

The reason for there being only one Glorfindel as I said earlier, MM had stated before that Elves re-used names, but Tolkien decided that Glorfindel was such a striking name, that it would not be re-used. Therefor, the two Glorfindel's are actually one in the same. If you want to find it, here is where MM says it is:

(Posted by Michael Martinez)

J.R.R. Tolkien concluded the two Glorfindels were the same person, and the essay where he drew the conclusion is published in The Peoples of Middle-earth, suitably titled "Glorfindel"

[Earniel]

Thank you for the much needed answer Sister Golden Hair!

I'm still new to Tolkien idea of re-embodiment. But somehow I find this elf-recycling kind of weird and unsuited for Middle-Earth. For me it takes all the drama out of Glorfindel's death.

It also adds a certain feeling of why worry about dying? You can get back to where you stopped last time and begin all over again...

The peoples of Middle-Earth you say? I gotta go find that one!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Thank you for the much needed answer Sister Golden Hair!At your service

[i]It also adds a certain feeling of why worry about dying? You can get back to where you stopped last time and begin all over again...

[/B]Gee, you sound a lot like Andreth.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Gee, you sound a lot like Andreth.

Um, who's this Andreth?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eärniel


Um, who's this Andreth? I'm sorry. Andreth is in the HoMe Vol. 10 Morgoth's Ring, Section: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth. She was a human that was in love with an Elf. Aegnor, Finrod Felagund's brother. Finrod and her had a lengthy debate concering life and death of Elves and Humans. Elven re-embodiment, life beyond Arda, and so forth.

[Earniel]

Thanks

Sigh, I really gonna have to get my hands on those books some day...