who is oldest?

[Quickbeam]

Ok., I know this thread has been on here a hundred different times, but who is the oldest? is it treebeard? or is it Bombadil? I think It's one of them. That may just be in midle Earth. So are there any other oldests you'de like to share? oldest in middle earth. Oldest anywhere. Oldest from other ages, first or second. person that lived longest ago that isn't alive (maybe they talk about where everything started) I don't know much about history as I've only read half of LOTR so far, and the hobit and no others. thanks.

[Tessar]

I think its bobadil. (but im no historian. im prob wrong)

remember how he said he saw all the things come? the elves and the trees and stuff.

[Renille]

Well, Eru would certainly be the oldest, as he created everything else. But if you mean mortal or elf or other, I have to say I forgot.

(I've only read half of the Silm. ...I have to save the other half until after quarter exams.)

[Quickbeam]

Eru huh. sounds interesting. So is he in the Silmarillion? any other ideas about who is oldest? maybe a better historian (not that you guys don't know your stuff)

[Finglas]

"Treebeard... is the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the sun upon this Middle Earth" (The Two Towers, 488)

'Nuff said:cool:

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

well, Mr. Bombidil said he was the oldest thing around, though, didn't he? I think he did anyway...



</end pointless post>

[Wayfarer]

Bombadil, hand's down.

The ents learned to speak from the elves, didn't they? So even though they were created by yavanna (sort of) I don't know if they were older than elves.

In any case, there is a very good argument that Bombadil was in Arda before even Melkor. That makes him the oldest.

[Finglas]

"When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also," (The Simarilion, 46)

The "thought of Yavanna" = the ents. This means that the elves and the ents were born at the same time. If Bombadil is an elf (I don't know. Is he?) then Fangorn and Bombadil could be the same age.

[Quickbeam]

wow, I didn't expect much controversy. But any other thoughts on bombadil and treebeard?

[Comic Book Guy]

Bombadil is eldest, he is not an elf,
When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already

He seems older than Melkor,

before the Dark Lord came from Outside

And he said himself he is eldest.

Eldest, that's what I am.

If Treebeard is the eldest living thing on Middle-Earth, does that mean Bombadil is dead?

[Renille]

Maybe Bombadil and Treebeard were created at the exact same time...that would explain how they both are "eldest."

[Tessar]

what exactly is bombadil?

i know he is the master of the woods and whatever but i mean like is he a eru typ of thing?
or is he just old?

[arynetrek]

(supposed to be earlier in the thread, but my original post fell into a black hole)

i get the impression Bombadil is a creature of the world, similar to the Elves but older - but the Ainur were around BEFORE the world, so for oldest in ME it'd be a competition between Olorin, Saruman (can't remember his other name), Sauron, etc. etc.

unless my personal Bombadil theory is wrong & he really IS Eru or a Vala or a Maia...

the Bombadil debate will never end. according to various theories, he is a Vala (i've heard Aule, which makes little sense; & Irmo, which makes slightly more); a Maia (maybe of Yavanna), Eru himself, a forest-spirit similar to an Ent, a rare breed of Elf/Man/Hobbit (?!?!?!), the alter-ego of the Witch-King (long live the Tolkien Sarcasm Page!)... there's a thread about Bombadil in the LotR section, try looking there for explanations

personally i agree with JRRT: in every world there are enigmas, and Bombadil is one of them. (source: a Letter, #200-something)

and to whoever asked about Eru - he is the creator of the world, began the music of creation which made the ainur, he through the ainur created arda. see the ainulindale (sp?) at the beginning of Sil.

aryne *

[Ñólendil]

As I've said before, Tom as Eldest + Treebeard as oldest living thing = Tom is not a living thing, but a spirit. In the Lord of the Rings, the oldest characters are of course Radagast, Saruman, Gandalf, the Balrog and Sauron.

Please, we've been through the Bombadil debates too many times. I personally would greatly appreciate it if you wondered about Bombadil's identity in one of the old threads that deal with this.

[arynetrek]

sorry

aryne *

[Ñólendil]

I'm not angry or anything. I didn't say it as a mod., but a very frightened human being.

[arynetrek]

that's OK, i just had negative-time to respond to that thread (hence the shortness).

aryne *

[Kirinki54]

I think I have seen that Cirdan was probably the eldest Elf at about 7.000 years. Could this be correct?

[arynetrek]

i think Galadriel is around 8000 when she leaves ME.

aryne*

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by arynetrek
i think Galadriel is around 8000 when she leaves ME.

aryne*

So is she older than Cirdan, or was I wrong about his age?

She doesn´t have a long beard anyway...:D

[Ñólendil]

If you ask me both CÃ*rdan and Galadriel were far older than 7 or even 8,000 years. CÃ*rdan was older though, he was born before the Great Journey, while Galadriel was not born until the Ñoldor had settled in Valinor.

[Tar-Elenion]

Galadriel was born in VY 1362 (IIRC) which would make her about 1300 years old when she left Valinor add to this another 600 years before the First Age ended, 3400 years for the Second Age, 3000 years for the Third Age, and Galadriel's age can be dated to about 8300 years (and yes I know that I am slightly understating the length of the Second and Third Ages while the First Age Years of the Sun are slightly over and the 1300 is an approximation).

Cirdan on the other hand was likely born at Cuivienen (though his first mention is on the Great March), If he was born before Melkors chaining he was likely over 10800 years old by the end of the Third Age.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion

Cirdan on the other hand was likely born at Cuivienen (though his first mention is on the Great March), If he was born before Melkors chaining he was likely over 10800 years old by the end of the Third Age.

Can you imagine the birthday cake!? :D

[Ñólendil]

Birthday lembas! :D

Thanks for looking that up Tar-Elenion (or for remembering, whichever you did), I would never have built up the energy. Seems like they'd be older somehow ... wasn't all the Sun Ages put together some 9,000 years long?

[Wayfarer]

Yes Dylan. But the elves were awakened before the sun.

I think that it went:

Ages of the Powers (the Valar lived and walked in Middle Earth)
Ages of the Stars (Elves awaken, some make the great journey)
Ages of the Sun (men awaken, Exiles return to Middle earth)

So galadriel would have been older than the sun as well. She was born in valinor before the dying of the trees.

[Ñólendil]

That's what I was saying. She is older than the Sun, and would therefore have been around longer than 9,000 years. Yet Tar-Elenion estimates her age at the time of the War of the Ring at 8300.

[Wayfarer]

You're right, she should have been at least 10300 then.

And I'll bet cirdan was far older.

[Tar-Elenion]

If you are refering to the Numenorean tradition of the Sun first rising when Fingolfin entered Mithrim then the Sun was about 7050 years old at the departure of Elrond from Middle-earth (about 590 years between the rising of the Sun and the end of the First Age, 3441 for the Second Age and 3021 for the Third Age).

On the other hand if you are refering to the Eldarin tradition (as per Myths Transformed) then the Sun was around before the Elves ever awoke.

[Wayfarer]

Well... seing as the numenorean tradition actually got into the sil. I'd say it's a better one to go by.

[Ñólendil]

Oh, I get it. Tar goes with Tolkien's latest (haphazard) conception of his mythology: the more scientific one. May I suggest that Christopher Tolkien was surprised to discover that his father did not find the 'Mannish influence' in the legends to be a solution to their supposed absurdity? Instead JRR Tolkien (as you know) proposed rewriting the whole sha-bang. Personally I don't accept it because we know so little about it. Accepting that the legends are merely influenced by Men is a good idea, but Tolkien didn't go with that. So I am left with the Trees, a fruit and a flower. Your way's as good as mine.

[Quickbeam]

Sorry I haven't replied in so long, but my internets been down. But thanks for keeping the post busy!

[Tar-Elenion]

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Quothe Inoldonil:
Oh, I get it. Tar goes with Tolkien's latest (haphazard) conception of his mythology: the more scientific one.
----------------------------

While I prefer the proposed MT version, I fail to see how my 'calculations' are effected by it.

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[snip]
Quote:
Accepting that the legends are merely influenced by Men is a good idea, but Tolkien didn't go with that. So I am left with the Trees, a fruit and a flower. Your way's as good as mine.
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He never came to firm (or firmly enacted) conclusion on how to resolve the Mythological vs. Scientific contradictions. But Trees, a fruit and a flower can still be maintained in a Legendarium with a Sun and Moon that were extant well before Fingolfin arrived in Beleriand (which is more in keeping with a LotR tradition).

In any event the Sun and Moon from a fruit and a flower are only about 7050 years old by the time of the departure of Elrond from Middle-earth, as I posted above and the first Three Ages of the Sun were much less than 9000 years. This still leaves Galadriel at about 8300.

[Bacchus]

Just to muddy the water a bit, I seem to recall that the Years of the Trees were longer than the years of the Sun. Thus, we would need a conversion factor (there may or may not be one) to deduce the ages of those born before 1 FA.

[Tar-Elenion]

Your recollection is correct, but unnecessary. I calculated that in (at 9.6 yaers of the Sun per 1 year of the Trees, though I think a more accurate conversion would be 9.58, IIRC, but as I said above the calculations were 'approximate') to my figures.

[Ñólendil]

But Trees, a fruit and a flower can still be maintained in a Legendarium with a Sun and Moon that were extant well before Fingolfin arrived in Beleriand (which is more in keeping with a LotR tradition).

Do you mean to tell me that when Tolkien was writing the LotR, he pictured the Sun as rising long before Fingolfin came to Hithlum, or what? That can't be what you mean.

In any event the Sun and Moon from a fruit and a flower are only about 7050 years old by the time of the departure of Elrond from Middle-earth, as I posted above and the first Three Ages of the Sun were much less than 9000 years. This still leaves Galadriel at about 8300.

Perhaps we've misunderstood eachother Elenion.* I don't mean specifically 'how many years-of-the-Sun had Galadriel been alive' (which would be all of them according to 'Númenórean fancy' which I prefer), but 'how many of "our" years old was she?' I.e., taking the Years of the Trees and converting them to our years, and adding on the years of Sun, how old was she?

*Is the meaning of this name intended to be 'Star-son' or 'Of the stars'? Elen + ion or eleni + on?

[Tar-Elenion]

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Do you mean to tell me that when Tolkien was writing the LotR, he pictured the Sun as rising long before Fingolfin came to Hithlum, or what? That can't be what you mean.
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It is more in keeping with LotR. Go to the Moria chapter (Journey in the Dark?) and read the song Gimli sings. Then tell me what you think.

Another thing to do would be to look at the heraldic devises of Finwe and Elwe (in Pictures by JRRT, or JRRT Artist and Illustrator). Explain Finwe's device in light of when he died.

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Quote:
Perhaps we've misunderstood eachother Elenion.* I don't mean specifically 'how many years-of-the-Sun had Galadriel been alive' (which would be all of them according to 'Númenórean fancy' which I prefer), but 'how many of "our" years old was she?' I.e., taking the Years of the Trees and converting them to our years, and adding on the years of Sun, how old was she?
---------------------


Yes, I understood what you were asking and that is what I answered. At the end of the Third Age, she was approximately 8300 years old (of our years). This includes the Years of the Trees in Valinor (converted to Sun Years (Coranar, Sun Round), which are equivilent to 'our years) and the years in Middle-earth.

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Quote:
*Is the meaning of this name intended to be 'Star-son' or 'Of the stars'? Elen + ion or eleni + on?
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It can be taken either way or as a masculine suffix (similar to '-iel'). I generally translate it loosely as 'Star-lord'.

[Ñólendil]

It is more in keeping with LotR. Go to the Moria chapter (Journey in the Dark?) and read the song Gimli sings. Then tell me what you think.

I've memorized it! It's one of my favourites. Which part are you referring to? 'The light of sun, and star, and moon, in shining lamps of crystal hewn, undimmed by cloud or shade of night, there shone forever fair and bright'? I suppose you must be referring to that part. I don't know when Durin I awoke, but we are hear speaking of a vague time when Khazad-dum was still fair and wonderful. You can say it was before 'the Ages of the Sun' and that the Sun existed for as long as our scientists think it has, or you can say that it is talking about a time during the Ages of the Sun, when the Sun had been put in the heavens by the Valar from the Two Trees.

Another thing to do would be to look at the heraldic devises of Finwe and Elwe (in Pictures by JRRT, or JRRT Artist and Illustrator). Explain Finwe's device in light of when he died.

But Tolkien drew those devices very late in his life, when he had the 'newer mythology' in his head. He didn't make them during the writing of the Lord of the Rings.

Yes, I understood what you were asking and that is what I answered. At the end of the Third Age, she was approximately 8300 years old (of our years). This includes the Years of the Trees in Valinor (converted to Sun Years (Coranar, Sun Round), which are equivilent to 'our years) and the years in Middle-earth.

Hm. How about that? I guess that's what you were getting at when you told me the Three Ages together were less than 1,000 years.

[Tar-Elenion]

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Quote:
I've memorized it! It's one of my favourites. Which part are you referring to? 'The light of sun, and star, and moon, in shining lamps of crystal hewn, undimmed by cloud or shade of night, there shone forever fair and bright'? I suppose you must be referring to that part. I don't know when Durin I awoke, but we are hear speaking of a vague time when Khazad-dum was still fair and wonderful. You can say it was before 'the Ages of the Sun' and that the Sun existed for as long as our scientists think it has, or you can say that it is talking about a time during the Ages of the Sun, when the Sun had been put in the heavens by the Valar from the Two Trees.
-------------------------------

Durin I and the Dwarves awoke well before Men, and built great halls as well as aided Thingol with Menegroth long before Fingolfin marched into Middle-earth and Men awoke 'at the first rising of the Sun', which followed a few days after the Moon first rose.

However when Durin awoke the Moon (unstained) was there to be seen.




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Quote:
But Tolkien drew those devices very late in his life, when he had the 'newer mythology' in his head. He didn't make them during the writing of the Lord of the Rings.
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When they were drawn (ca. 1960+) is not that important to my mind. What is important is that if there was no Sun, Finwe could not have a Sun as his heraldic device.



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Quote:
Hm. How about that? I guess that's what you were getting at when you told me the Three Ages together were less than 1,000 years.
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The Ages were less than 10000 (not 1000) if you count the First Age as starting from when Fingolfin marched into Beleriand (590 + 3441 + 3021 = 7052). Galadriel was born in 1362 (Year of the Trees) and the Trees were slain in 1495. This makes her about 133 Tree Years old, or somewhere between 1200 and 1300 of our years at the time of the Flight of the Noldor.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
You're right, she should have been at least 10300 then.

And I'll bet cirdan was far older.

Were neither of these the tiniest bitty faded? How long would that take?

[Ñólendil]

Durin I and the Dwarves awoke well before Men, and built great halls as well as aided Thingol with Menegroth long before Fingolfin marched into Middle-earth and Men awoke 'at the first rising of the Sun', which followed a few days after the Moon first rose.

However when Durin awoke the Moon (unstained) was there to be seen.

Sure, but it's 'which Durin' that is important. All the Durins awoke, you know, and we don't know how much time passes during the song. Which Durin in Khazad-dum are they talking about? When were the lamps made with the light of sun, star and moon trapped within them? This is not known. It seems unlikely to me that Tolkien should have had any sort of scientific mythology in his head when he was writing the LotR. Didn't this arise much later, in the late sixties or early seventies?

When they were drawn (ca. 1960+) is not that important to my mind. What is important is that if there was no Sun, Finwe could not have a Sun as his heraldic device.

When they were drawn makes all the difference! You can't take different writings (or illustrations) from different time periods and throw them together, that won't make for consistency. Finwe with a Sun for his device obviously belongs to the period of the scientific mythology. If I accept the more primitive mythos, than I of course do not accept the devices which contradict it.

[Tar-Elenion]

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Quote:
Sure, but it's 'which Durin' that is important. All the Durins awoke, you know,
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Actually we dont *know* that. App. A states that "five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin". It notes Durin I as sleeping alone until the awakening of the Dwarves and then goes to Kheled-zaram.

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Quote:
and we don't know how much time passes during the song. Which Durin in Khazad-dum are they talking about?
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We do know that the Durin of the song is Durin I. The Durin of the song is the one who names the nameless hills and dells. This would be the Durin who awakes and comes to Azanulbizar in App. A. Thus the Durin of the song is Durin I who wakes. And he wakes with an unstained Moon in the heavens to be seen.


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Quote:
When were the lamps made with the light of sun, star and moon trapped within them? This is not known.
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I have not been addressing the lamps, only the fact of the Moon when *there was no Moon*. But since there was a Moon then the Sun is not out of the question and the lamps made with their light in Durin's Day, which by Men's mythology was before Sun and Moon were made.


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It seems unlikely to me that Tolkien should have had any sort of scientific mythology in his head when he was writing the LotR. Didn't this arise much later, in the late sixties or early seventies?
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No. The essays in Myths Transformed are from ca 1960 as is the Athrabeth, both of which deal with a 'scientific' cosmology (CT gives dates ranging from 1955-1960, but indicates the later is more likely correct). Thes are of course post LotR. However there is the Ainulindale C* text. According to CT the evidence suggests that C* was extant by 1948. The C* text is a 'scientific' version.


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Quote:
When they were drawn makes all the difference! You can't take different writings (or illustrations) from different time periods and throw them together, that won't make for consistency.
-----------------------

Yes, I can. Especially when JRRT himself reconciles it, noting that the 'astronomically absurd' making of the Sun and Moon are Mannish Myth, while the Eldar know better. Thus allowing for Finwe to have a Sun as his device (and it making more sence for the device of Elwe to be a Moon).

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Quote:
Finwe with a Sun for his device obviously belongs to the period of the scientific mythology. If I accept the more primitive mythos, than I of course do not accept the devices which contradict it.
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That is your choice of course, though I try to reconcile 'apparent' contradictions before rejecting anything out of hand, with an attempt to use the published canon (LotR, RGEO and The Hobbit) as a guideline to consistancy.

[Ñólendil]

Actually we dont *know* that. App. A states that "five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin". It notes Durin I as sleeping alone until the awakening of the Dwarves and then goes to Kheled-zaram.

Sure we do! You can read about it in The Peoples of Middle-earth, Late Writings, Last Writings, Glorfindel. Whenever Durin dies, any hurts his body suffered are healed, and he lies 'asleep' in a 'tomb' of his own body. Whenever a King in his direct line of descent dies without an heir, Durin awakes and takes up the Kingship again. He would in that life be Durin II if he had been Durin I in his previous one. So all the Durins awoke, and were not born.

We do know that the Durin of the song is Durin I.

In the first verse, it is certainly Durin I. But when Gimli gets to 'A king he was on carven throne, in many pillared halls of stone~', it can go for any of the Durins who ruled in Khazad-dum, except probably Durin VI, since his realm was decaying in his time. But in the last verse, 'The darkness dwells in Durin's halls. The shadow lies upon his tomb, in Mória, in Khazad-dum', this must be speaking of Durin VI. And the final line 'until Durin wakes again from sleep', that Durin will be Durin VII and Last. But still, all the words about Khazad-dum could go for any time when it was in power, and Tolkien specifies the Second Age as the time when it grew to its greatest splendour, in a letter I think. Also the only mention of a moon is not in relation to Durin's awakening, it is in relation to the lights that the lamps of the Dwarrowdelf were filled with.

No. The essays in Myths Transformed are from ca 1960 as is the Athrabeth, both of which deal with a 'scientific' cosmology (CT gives dates ranging from 1955-1960, but indicates the later is more likely correct). Thes are of course post LotR. However there is the Ainulindale C* text. According to CT the evidence suggests that C* was extant by 1948. The C* text is a 'scientific' version.

All right, but granting the C* text as being written in 1946, the ca 1960 Myths Transformed writings bear some curious choices of words. 'You cannot do this anymore' in the first text. Tolkien was finally deciding that there must be a scientific mythology, he was finally throwing away the 'absurd' ideas. He had apparently kept them previously, if even reluctantly, or he had been unsure. The LotR lies in this time period. Can it really be said for certain that Tolkien had a scientific myth in his head? I do not believe so.

Yes, I can. Especially when JRRT himself reconciles it, noting that the 'astronomically absurd' making of the Sun and Moon are Mannish Myth, while the Eldar know better.

Of course he reconciles it, there must always be explanations. What I meant was that these devices do not prove one thing or another about the ideas Tolkien had while writing the Lord of the Rings! If you accept them and the mythology they are connected to, they will naturally fit into the Lord of the Rings setting because of the explanations. Anyway, as I have said earlier, Tolkien went further than to chalk up the absurd astronomy as Mannish Myth, he did not see that as a solution.

I will tell you that the only reason I don't accept this latest idea is because of its haphazard state, and its endless questions that it raises. He just didn't have time to rewrite everything, we don't have as much info. as that found in the primitive legendarium. Because I accept the primitive one (which I believe IMPO to be more in accord with the Lord of the Rings), I can't accept Finwe's device.

Now, if you were to tell me that the Road Goes Ever On supports you, and if you were to quote passages which are obviously more in accord with the scientific legendarium, I would have to shake your hand and tell you that you one, and accept your way. For RGEO was published in Tolkien's life, and he would have felt bound by everything in it, if he remembered.

[Tar-Elenion]

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Quote:
Sure we do! You can read about it in The Peoples of Middle-earth, Late Writings, Last Writings, Glorfindel. Whenever Durin dies, any hurts his body suffered are healed, and he lies 'asleep' in a 'tomb' of his own body. Whenever a King in his direct line of descent dies without an heir, Durin awakes and takes up the Kingship again. He would in that life be Durin II if he had been Durin I in his previous one. So all the Durins awoke, and were not born.
-----------------------

Yes, I am aware of the Glorfindel text.

First let me quote you:
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Quote: You can't take different writings (or illustrations) from different time periods and throw them together, that won't make for consistency.
-----------------------

Second let me quote LotR:
"but his [Durin's] line never failed and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin".
Note _born_. Not ressurected.

Third lets note several things about the statements in the Glorfindel essay (and there are 3 relatively (or so it _seems_) distinct statements):
One: these are noted to be a 'record of emerging thought', not a distinct conclusion (similar to the question of 'where do Orcs come from' to draw an analogy).
One A: First we have Dwarvish tradition that says the spirits of the Seven Fathers were reborn on occasion in their kindreds, particularly in case of the Longbeards whose forefather, Durin, had his name taken by his direct descendants.
What is most interesting to note about this essay is when the Dwarf Fathers 'awoke' "far back in the First Age (it is supposed, soon after the awakening of Men)" and end note 23 mentions the Dwarves as the "third children" of Eru. Note that this text is a "scientific" mythology text. If Dwarves awoke soon after Men and Men awoke only when Fingolfin entered Beleriand then the Dwarves could not have aided Thingol etc etc etc.

One B: This is in actually a continuation of One A, not a seperate tradition. This notes that the spirits of the Dwarf Fathers should fall asleep and each should 'lie in a tomb of his own body at rest until it is healed of hurst and weariness, and then it will arise after long years and take up the kingship again'. This is what you are using in your above statement, but you are combining it with the variant tradition that CT calls the 'second version'. I read this rising as a rising of the 'spirit' not the body which is reborn into a descendant. Now of course endnote 25 can be used to counter this but first note that CT states that there is no indication of where it was to go, and also note that it is a supposition for JRRT to consider, not the answer to a question.

One C: Now this variant actually mentions the spirit returning to the preserved body and that this accounts for the return of the Forefathers. I think this is what Endnote 25 was probably refering to. This variant is also presented as supossition ('probably' and 'seems'). The 'second version' and endnote 25 seem to confuse the issue of what 'One B' was saying. But as the One B is the conclusion to One A which asserts spirits being reborn, then One B should be talking about the spirit rising and being reborn not the body.

But as I mentioned earlier the most interesting thing in this essay, is that it is 'scientific'.


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Quote:
In the first verse, it is certainly Durin I. But when Gimli gets to 'A king he was on carven throne, in many pillared halls of stone~', it can go for any of the Durins who ruled in Khazad-dum, except probably Durin VI, since his realm was decaying in his time.
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The first two verses are unarguably refering to Durin I. So to is the third 'A king _he_ was on carven throne'. The only 'he' mentioned to that point is Durin I 'He named, He drank, He stooped, saw, his head'.

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But in the last verse, 'The darkness dwells in Durin's halls. The shadow lies upon his tomb, in Mória, in Khazad-dum', this must be speaking of Durin VI.
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The tomb is that of Durin I (the only 'he, his' referred to). Note again in App. A where it states of Durin I that "his tomb was in Khazad-dum". Also note that the 'shadow lies upon his tomb in Moria in Khazad-dum' is followed by 'But still the sunken stars appear In dark and windless Mirrormere; there lies his crown in water deep' refering back to the first verse when after Durin I awoke 'He stooped and looked in Mirrormere, and saw a crown of stars appear'. But of course the various Durins are all Durin I in _spirit_.

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And the final line 'until Durin wakes again from sleep', that Durin will be Durin VII and Last.
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Yet Durin VII and Durin I are the 'same'.

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But still, all the words about Khazad-dum could go for any time when it was in power, and Tolkien specifies the Second Age as the time when it grew to its greatest splendour, in a letter I think. Also the only mention of a moon is not in relation to Durin's awakening, it is in relation to the lights that the lamps of the Dwarrowdelf were filled with.
-----------------------

Do you have different version of this song than I? It reads:
The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet upon the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.

When Durin woke the Moon was there.


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All right, but granting the C* text as being written in 1946, the ca 1960 Myths Transformed writings bear some curious choices of words. 'You cannot do this anymore' in the first text. Tolkien was finally deciding that there must be a scientific mythology, he was finally throwing away the 'absurd' ideas. He had apparently kept them previously, if even reluctantly, or he had been unsure. The LotR lies in this time period. Can it really be said for certain that Tolkien had a scientific myth in his head? I do not believe so.
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Once again, I have said it is more in keeping with a tradition presented in LotR. I have not made any statements concerning what was in his mind.


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Of course he reconciles it, there must always be explanations. What I meant was that these devices do not prove one thing or another about the ideas Tolkien had while writing the Lord of the Rings!
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And again I have not been addressing what he had in mind while writing LotR, however while he was writing LotR he was also writing a 'scientific' mythology.


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Anyway, as I have said earlier, Tolkien went further than to chalk up the absurd astronomy as Mannish Myth, he did not see that as a solution.
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I fail to see your point. Elaborate.


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I will tell you that the only reason I don't accept this latest idea is because of its haphazard state, and its endless questions that...[snip]
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Not accepting the idea is just fine. There are various conceptions that I dont care for or accept. I like the MT conceptions because of the further depth it adds to the Legendarium.


Re: RGEO
I dont think there is anything in it that confirms or denies the matter (possibly there is one thing but that might be further semantics, I will research).

[Ñólendil]

Second let me quote LotR:
"but his [Durin's] line never failed and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin".
Note _born_. Not ressurected.

Yes, I know, it has been pointed out to me before. But that can be explained as a difference in culture. To get Biblical: Jesus is supposed to be the Messiah because of his lineage, from father to son, of the Kings. Yet his father was not his biological father. As the story goes he is the son of God, but also the rightful King. This is because the culture he was born into had a different idea of kinship. A father could actually disown his own son, he could say 'you are not by son' and it would be true, regardless of biology. Similarly your son could easily be someone who did not share your blood and there would be no cause for question. What am I getting at? Difference of culture. 'He is my father' might have conveyed something slightly different to an ancient inhabitant of the Middle-east than it does now to you or I (though we have adoption, of course).

Dwarven Fathers might be said to have been born, even if they were not literally born, as Tolkien said they were not. For they may regard it differently. Also there is the matter of internally consistent mistakes: secretive Dwarves being secretive about their ways, and Mannish ideas getting into Human documents. I have no doubt, as I suppose you have no doubt, that when Tolkien wrote the LotR he was thinking of actual rebirth, and used 'awaken' figuratively. But he changed his mind and kept it consistent, and it works. 'When Durin wakes from sleep' may now be interpreted more literally.

My argument is not that 'Glorfindel' was not scientific, but that the Dwarf-fathers awoke.

I can continue with this and argue every point maybe, but I find that I have not the energy to keep digging out PoMe and debating, so I won't. :)

Do you have different version of this song than I? It reads:
The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet upon the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.

When Durin woke the Moon was there.

Yes, you're quite right. I should have went through that in my head once more. Well, *laughs*, I can't argue with that. Curious, very curious.

[Tar-Elenion]

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Dwarven Fathers might be said to have been born, even if they were not literally born, as Tolkien said they were not. For they may regard it differently.
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As I noted earlier JRRT said different things. He said the Dwarf Fathers were sometimes reborn. He said their spirits rested in a tomb of the Father's (dead) body and then left. He said their spirits returned to the (dead) body and the body was awakened again. These are various concepts to which there is no firm conclusion. I mentioned a similar case earlier: Orcs as Elves, Men, Beasts, automatons or other. Cases can be made for all these.

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Also there is the matter of internally consistent mistakes: secretive Dwarves being secretive about their ways, and Mannish ideas getting into Human documents.
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Hmm, 'Mannish ideas', where have I heard that applied before? ;)


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I can continue with this and argue every point maybe, but I find that I have not the energy to keep digging out PoMe and debating, so I won't.
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Okay. Thanks for the debate.

[Elrond]

Bombadil is the eldest, my theory is treebeard does not know of bombadil.

[Ace]

I think Bombadil is eldest. He was hear when the first drop of rain fell. As far as those who are complaining about this thread. No one has to look at the thread if they're bored. Tom Bombadil is a very interesting character and deserves multiple threads. He rules, and could kick everyone's butt except maybe Sauron.

"If the choice be mine, I say, we march!"

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Ace
Tom Bombadil is a very interesting character and deserves multiple threads. He rules, and could kick everyone's butt except maybe Sauron.

"If the choice be mine, I say, we march!"

I agree Tom is interesting.
On his abilities to 'kick butt' we really cannot say. We know not what he his or what his powers really are.

[Ñólendil]

I thought we agreed he was a Knee-walking Turkey from the Land of the Knee-walking Turkeys? As such his main powers would be hobbling about on his knees and clucking powerful Turkey-spells, or possibly something else.

At least we can be certain that Tom has got wings, and no ears to speak of.

[Wayfarer]

If he was a knee walking turkey... wouldn't it be safe to wsay that he could _not_ kick anybody's butt?

Now... Kneeing... that's a whole other story.

[Kirinki54]

Well... If you say so.
Tom better watch out then. It´s soon Christmas!:)