Did Gandalf know all along?

[Darkhalcyon]

Why do you think a great wizard like gandalf would interest himself in the affairs of some greedy, vengeful dwarves? I think t hat he knew (or at least had some idea) that the ring was there! especially when he acted all knowing about it. The problem is, it seemed he didn't know that the goblin cave entrance was there, and that the goblins would've gotten them. Or did he want them to go in there so someone would get the ring? i'm confusing myself.

And another thing, Isn't it SO convenient that Gwaihir was always there? and didn't he, in a sense, repay gandalf after that first rescue?
Maybe it's just my NY mentality, and Gwaihir was just a nice guy
:p

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Darkhalcyon
Why do you think a great wizard like gandalf would interest himself in the affairs of some greedy, vengeful dwarves? I think t hat he knew (or at least had some idea) that the ring was there!

I don´t think Gandalf viewed Thorin and his kin that way. They had been wronged.

Gandalf´s main objective (in this matter) was to get rid of Smaug, as he did not like the idea of a ferocious dragon wreaking havoc on Eriador when it later came to a showdown with Sauron. And so he and the Dwarves had a common interest in disposing of the dragon.

As for the Ring, it came to Bilbo as a ´by-product´of the quest. IMO nothing supports the idea that Gandalf knew it would be found on the way.

[Comic Book Guy]

Gandalf knew that when Sauron gained power over Smaug, he would use the dragon to a great extent, so he decided to join them and help the Dwarves someway or another.

He really had no idea were the ring was, if he did, the white council (except Saruman) would claim it as quick as possible, he always suspected Bilbos magic ring, but he could never really prove it so he decided to leave to ring in Bilbos hands because it was in safe as hands as any.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Darkhalcyon
And another thing, Isn't it SO convenient that Gwaihir was always there?

Well, he wasn´t. It has been made clear to me (the hard way; in a debate ;) ) that the Eagles appearing in The Hobbit are likely not the same as those in the LoTR. At least they are never named.

In ´The Field of Cormallen´ you can see that there were in fact many Eagles (the "long swift lines").

[FaithFairy]

:) Hi, this is my first post here. I didn't see an introduction thread or forum so hope it's okay to just jump in.

I've just recently read The Hobbit for the first time so I'm obviously not an authority. As far as the ring is concerned, I did suspect that Gandalf knew where it was and/or that Bilbo would find it. The ring seemed to play a very important part -- there wouldn't have been any success without it.

Gwaihir? I don't remember that name and I've already returned the book.

[Wayfarer]

Just Jump in? Just Jump in?

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THEN you can jump in. ]:)

[Wayfarer]

Oh, and hi. ;) It's actually very nice to have you. I'm sure someone will come along shortly and tell you not to mind me, so i won't bother doing it myself. And the above was sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell.

[FaithFairy]

Oh, I get it...it's an inside joke. ;) Thanks for the welcome! :)

I do hope someone can tell me about Gwaihir. Well now, someone standing behind me suggests it's the goblin king.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by FaithFairy
Gwaihir? I don't remember that name and I've already returned the book.

In The Lord of the Rings, the chief Eagle is named Gwaihir. He often comes to the aid of the good guys in dire straits. His brothers were Meneldor and Landroval. There were many eagles but these are the only ones named. Their forefather of old appears in The Silmarillion; Thorondor. He was a very big and powerful bird. The Eagles were considered to be in league with Manwe, the head Vala (the 'archangels' which appear in the Sil.) which is why they were always on the good side (possible exception the battle between the Last Alliance and Sauron?).

Now, the experts can explain the finer details... ;)

[Wayfarer]

Yes. It was an inside joke. How very astute of you to regognize that.

And yes, Gwaihir the Windlord was the chief of hte eagles in the misty mountains. They were the descendants of the Eagles that lived near Gondolin.

You can learn in the Hobbit that gandalf once healed him from an arrow wound, and thus, he owed the old wizard a favor (or four).

I believe, inolondil and I discussed this once, the he would have had a wingspan of thirty feet or so. He would also appear as a golden eagle (not a bald eagle, as I once thought)

The great eagles were very intelligent, and in the second age they were a match for the winged dragons in strength (Thorondor would hve been over three hundred feet in wingspan)

[Ace]

Gandalf most certainly did not know the ring was in the Goblin Caves. First, just from reading the novels one learns that Thror (Thorin's grandfather) trusted Gandalf with the map and the key. Gandalf was only fulfilling the duty from a friend.
Secondly, and more importantly. If you read Humphrey's Carpenter's biography on Tolkien you would realize that even though LOTR grew out of the Hobbit Tolkien had no idea what the ring was doing there when he wrote the Hobbit. The ring was just something there that Gandalf put into his, what was originally, chidren's story.

Anyone with questions, feel free to email.

Ace

"Well if the choice be mine, I say, we march!"

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
And yes, Gwaihir the Windlord was the chief of hte eagles in the misty mountains. They were the descendants of the Eagles that lived near Gondolin.

You can learn in the Hobbit that gandalf once healed him from an arrow wound, and thus, he owed the old wizard a favor (or four).


Are you sure the Hobbit refers to an eagle with a specific name? (No books around so I can´t check myself.) Michael Martinez claimed to me once that we have no way of knowing if indeed Gwaihir, Meneldor or Landroval appear in the Hobbit; it might as well and likely be other eagles. There was a large population.

[Wayfarer]

Yes. But there's such as thing as a resonable inference.

After all... the eagles would have had only one lord. There were not different societies and populations of eagles. They all answered to the same lord, and ultimately to manwe.

And, since Gandalf is rescued by the lord of the eagles in the hobbit, I would assume that it's the same eagle-lord as fromt he LOTR. Namely, gwaihir.

[Bregalad, Ent of Fangorn]

Allow me to shed a little light on the subject of gwaihir

He is the lord of the great and mighty Eagles of the north. the reason for his unlikely friendship with Gandlaf was because the old wizard cured him of a poisioned wound(caused by a goblin/orc arrow) the eagles do not think a debt is repaid by simply doing one act in return; they belive instead that they share a bond for the rest of time.

Eagles as you must know harbour a deep loathing towards orc's, troll's, goblins, and the twisted men in Saurons service. Eagle's especially hate goblin's because of a Fued when the Goblins tried to re establish themselves in the high passes around the year 2799 third age. Eagles are known for fearing nothing and showing no mercy towards there enemy's

There I hope I helped you understand A bit more of the Eagle's. Come ask me Questions any time for I love having my knowledge tested.

[Ñólendil]

I think the ongoing argument was whether the Lord of the Eagles of the Hobbit is one and the same with the Lord of the Eagles in the Lord of the Rings.

Personally, I think Gwaihir the Windlord is the Lord of the Eagles in the Hobbit. Gwaihir was descended from Thorondor, who was extremely long lived. But you can go either way: there's no proof.

[Bregalad, Ent of Fangorn]

Actually there is proof, I thought there was so I consulted my tolkien Dictionary(rarely do I have to, for my knowledge is vast) but it says that he was the lord of the Eagles in the hobbit, because then Gwaihir was given a crown for his help.

[Ñólendil]

I haven't heard of a Tolkien Dictionary, but I am sure that it was not written by Tolkien. I agree with the writer, but there's no proof to be found in The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings. That's what I meant.

[Wayfarer]

I've seen the tolkien dictionary. It's certainly better than that david day guy who you used to read from.

[Ñólendil]

I believe it. Beating Day's Encyclopedia shouldn't be too difficult, I could do it, granted the time :)

Who wrote the Dictionary?

[Bregalad, Ent of Fangorn]

The Dictionary was written by one J.E.A. Tyler

[Bregalad]

My but my name's getting popular! Since I joined up there have been two more signed on. Soon you will all be up to your noses in Quickbeams! Oh you poor doomed souls! :D

Anyway, on two the subject at hand. I think it's a fair assumption that Gwaihir is present in both instances. Of course, there is no proof, so we can all argue until the end of time<giggle> But I think it a much stranger possibility that some strange eagles, with no tie to Gandalf, decided to just swoop in and meddle in the affairs of dwarves.

As for the ring, there is no way that Gandalf knew the one ring was there. When Bilbo makes his miraculous seeming, invisible escape, Gandalf knows imediately that something is up, he even makes a somewhat tongue in cheek remark about there being more than meets the eye about Bilbo. But he makes it clear in LOTR that his suspicion of it being the one ring came very slowly. And it was because he was trying to find the proof and thus the truth about the ring that he is late in getting back to Frodo and sending him on his way.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Bregalad
But I think it a much stranger possibility that some strange eagles, with no tie to Gandalf, decided to just swoop in and meddle in the affairs of dwarves.

As for the ring, there is no way that Gandalf knew the one ring was there.

Not necessarily some STRANGE eagles! It seems they were a large but tighly-knit clan, all of them strong and powerful. When the Ring is destroyed they come flying together in long lines. So since Gwaihir is not named, there is no reason to believe he MUST have been present in The Hobbit.

As for the Ring, yes. I still find it a bit peculiar it took so long for Gandalf to become suspicious. I mean, Rings were THE topic of those times, the One in particular...