Eowyn and Faramir

[Elessar_elfstone]

In LOTR, the appendix part stated that Arwen became a mortal when she wedded to Aragon and when Aragon wanted to lay down and rest forever, Arwen was not ready to leave the world yet, so she begged Aragon not to die early but Aragon refused...... And Arwen died shortly afterwards

I was wondering if this could be the same case for Eowyn and Faramir...:confused:

Faramir is a Numénorean while Eowyn is just a normal human...so does it mean that Eowyn will die earlier than Faramir or will she become a Numénorean too?

[Ñólendil]

No, she would not become a Númenórean. Arwen was able to choose because her mother was an Elf and her father a Half-elf. Éowyn and Faramir were bother mortals. Éowyn logically would die first; not only because she did not have the blood of the Dúnedain, but because she was some ten years younger than her husband.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Éowyn logically would die first; not only because she did not have the blood of the Dúnedain, but because she was some ten years younger than her husband.

Huh!?

[Ñólendil]

So the Tale of Years tells us. The ages (by years) of peoples living in the Third Age does not always mean the same to them as it does to us though. Thirty-three for a Hobbit, for example, is like eighteen or twenty-one to us today.

Anyway: 2983 Faramir son of Denethor born. Birth of Samwise.
2988 Finduilas dies young.
2989 Balin leaves Erebor and enters Moria.
2991 Éomer Éomund's son born in Rohan.
2994 Balin perishes, and the dwarf-colony is destroyed.
2995 Éowyn sister of Éomer born.

Oh! I get it, I'm an idiot. *laughs* Yeah, you're right, Faramir might logically die first, being the elder of the two. My mistake.

[ArwenEvenstar]

I was staring to wonder *shakes her head*

[Snowdog]

Faramir had Numenorean lines as well as Elven blood, and being that Eowyn was descendent of the Northmen, it is conceivable that he would outlive her. However, it is not stated how old Éowyn lived to be, but Faramir lived to forth age year 82, 120 years old.

[Faramir]

Originally posted by Elessar_elfstone
In LOTR, the appendix part stated that Arwen became a mortal when she wedded to Aragon and when Aragon wanted to lay down and rest forever, Arwen was not ready to leave the world yet, so she begged Aragon not to die early but Aragon refused...... And Arwen died shortly afterwards

I was wondering if this could be the same case for Eowyn and Faramir...:confused:

Faramir is a Numénorean while Eowyn is just a normal human...so does it mean that Eowyn will die earlier than Faramir or will she become a Numénorean too?

I don't think that's possible. The Numenoreans were an acncient race of noble humans, there line was very long. Just because someone married a Numenorean doesn't mean that "POP! Presto! I'm a Numenorean! Yay!". You'd have to be related to a numenorean to be one, you can't just marry one. Numenoreans would be a lot more common, and not treated so specially if you could become one through marriage.

[Snowdog]

I don't think that's possible. The Numenoreans were an acncient race of noble humans, there line was very long. Just because someone married a Numenorean doesn't mean that "POP! Presto! I'm a Numenorean! Yay!". You'd have to be related to a numenorean to be one, you can't just marry one. Numenoreans would be a lot more common, and not treated so specially if you could become one through marriage. Quite right Faramir. it would be Faramir & Eowyn's kids who would inherit a portion of the Numenorean bloodline, and may have a measure of longer life. But it would be further mingled with lesser blood (not a put down of Eowyn or the Rohirrim) that the advantages would be in my opinion slight.

[Tar-Elenion]

Interestingly enough, Eowyn's grandmother was Morwen of Lossarnach, a lady of "high Numenorean descent".

[Snowdog]

Yes, and it shows that the mingling of the bloods were always lessened. Even in Numenor the lifespan diminished as men feared death more and more. It seemed that the heart and spirit of the line made a diffference, for when darkness entered in it seemed to diminish the years. It also seemed to be also in the resistance to the ring?

[Linarryl]

I dont think so. Eowyn and Faramir are mortals. But I'd say Eowyn would die last.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Is not eowyn part Gondorian blood, by a least her granmother (who was Theodens mother) ?

[durin's bane]

I think, no matter how you cut it, Faramir will die before Eowyn. It's just more logical.

[Lalaith]

I didn't know, that Faramir was that old. I always thought of him like a young, cute man.
But another thing:

Do you know the scene in the Return of the King, where Eowyn and Faramir meet in Minas Tirith? When they are both healed by Aragorn and the both of them become close friends?
One time Faramir asks Eowyn, why she does not leave to meet her brother Eomer, like Eomer asked her to. And the Eowyn asks Faramir if he does not know the answer.
Faramir replies, that there are 2 possibilities and he names them.
But Eowyn does not say, which was the right one.
did she stay because of Faramir
or did she stay because Aragorn didn't ask her to come?

[Beleg Strongbow]

While you're thinking of cute men, keep in mind that Aragorn is only one year younger that Denethor. :eek:

and I vote for the Aragorn possibility.

[entss89]

no i dont believe she would become that, because arwen was diff.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Faramir is a Numénorean while Eowyn is just a normal human...so does it mean that Eowyn will die earlier than Faramir or will she become a Numénorean too? They are both human, indeed "kin from afar off": Faramir told Frodo and Sam that "Indeed it is said by our lore-masters that they have from of old this affinity with us that they are come from those same Three Houses of Men as were the Númenoreans in their beginning; not from Hador the Goldenhaired, the Elf-friend, maybe, yet from such of his sons and people as went not over Sea into the West, refusing the call."

That said, back in 1250 King Valacar of Gondor, while a prince, had wed VidumavÃ*, daughter of the Northern prince Vidugavia (thus setting the stage for the terrible Kinstrife in Gondor); VidumavÃ* "had been a fair and noble lady, but short-lived according to the fate of lesser Men, and the Dúnedain feared that her descendants would prove the same and fall from the majesty of the Kings of Men." (Appendix A, Lord of the Rings).

After the Kin-strife, descendants of the kings were few, partly because of the civil war and partly because afterwards the kings were very suspicious of their near kin, who quite often either renounced their lineage and married non-Númenoreans or fled to join the rebels in Umbar. Thus, after Eärnur, there was no claimant to the crown and the stewards took over.

And 1,769 years after Valacar had started the whole sad process, Faramir (who, although the blood of Númenor ran truer in him than in Boromir, was not a descendant of the Kings) would tell Frodo and Sam that the Númenoreans could "scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things."

Whether that affected the Dúnedain's longevity, I don't know. I suspect that with him not being an in-line descendant of the Kings, and with her Númenorean blood, they had about the same life expectancy, though perhaps her encounter with the Witch-King of Angmar might have shortened her life some.

did she stay because of Faramir or did she stay because Aragorn didn't ask her to come?That was a great scene. I don't think she knew herself, until she realized that Faramir loved her.

[Elf Girl]

Maybe Faramir will choose to die when she does...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Faramir is of direct Numenorean line, whereas it's quite less pure in Eowyn. As Nolendil pointed out, it says that he was 12 years older than her; as Snowdog said, Faramir lived to be around 120. She would have to be 100-some if she lived as long as he did, let alone if she lived longer. If I remember correctly, Aldor the Old only lived to be 100-120 (not sure how old exactly; can anyone inform me?) I would think that most Rohirrim would be considerably less long-lived than him, simply because he was called Aldor the Old, thus implying that he lived to be longer than most of their kind.

[Lalaith]

Eowyn did really need long time to realize that Faramir loved her. I mean when they first met I knew it and I even thought they would fit together perfectly when I first read about their characters (in TTT).
And Faramir would choose death. He is a romantic and cute man. He would.

[Eothain]

She will probobly die normally

[Elf Girl]

After further thought, I don't think Faramir would choose to die when she does, because he will live maybe ten or twenty years more than her, not forever. Also because his father made him wary of falling into despair.

[Jonathan]

Faramir died at the age of 120. Even though Éowyn had some of Númernors blood, I doubt that she could live longer than 110 years and die after Faramir (she was born almost ten years after Faramir).
Since Faramir was more "elvish" than Éowyn, he must have a shorter lifespan.

[Elf Girl]

:confused: Do you mean a longer lifespan?

[Jonathan]

That's right, Faramir should have a longer life span than Éowyn, and Éowyn should have a shorter lifespan than Faramir.

[Lalaith]

Okay, I thought about it and Tolkien does not write enough about Faramir to tell, wether he would die with Eowyn or not.
But another thought is, that they maybe die normal and then come to the halls of Mandos. And Tolkien once wrote, that the Valar can allow died mortals to come to Valinor and live ther (then Immortal). So maybe, the both of them - as well as the rest of the important ring war people - were asked to come to Valinor.
But that's only a guessing. What do you think?

[Elf Girl]

I don't think so. We can't have too many ex-mortals cluttering up Valinor, no precious. ;)

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Lalaith
And Tolkien once wrote, that the Valar can allow died mortals to come to Valinor and live ther (then Immortal). So maybe, the both of them - as well as the rest of the important ring war people - were asked to come to Valinor.
But that's only a guessing. What do you think?
I don't think so either. Only immortals were allowed to stay in Valinor. The only mortal allowed to leave Mandos and return was Beren. Eowyn and Faramir would have left the circles of the world.

[Lalaith]

Mabe I'm mixing it up with The Book of Lost Tales, because there he wrote, that mortals can come to Valinor from Mandos' halls when they are invited from the Valar.
But I'm not quite sure if he keept this idea in the Silmarillion (I'm just reading the book of lost tales and maybe he droped that idea in later stories.)

[greyhavener]

I'm too lazy to look this up, so indulge me...I didn't think mortals got a choice about when to die. Mortality seems to imply the absence of control over death. Where in LOTR or the Silm. are death options for mortals described?

[Artanis]

I'm too lazy to look this up, so indulge me...I didn't think mortals got a choice about when to die. Mortality seems to imply the absence of control over death. Where in LOTR or the Silm. are death options for mortals described?Men being mortal means that their lifespan is short, and they can die from illness. When they die, their spirits are summoned to Mandos, and after some time they are free to leave the world. The Elves are immortal, but they can still be slain, so they do not have complete control over their death. But then they may be reincarnated. Their spirits are bound to be in the world until it ends.

In RotK, Aragorn laid himself down to die because he percieved it was the right time to do so. He was old and he would soon fall into dotage if he should live longer. By doing this he continued the ancient practice of the Numenorean Kings before their fall.

[markedel]

Numenorians are blessed by having are very short, if swift decline.

[Lalaith]

So Faramir could also choose to die, if he thinks that he is old enough and his life should be over (like all Numenoreans could).

[Artanis]

Yes I believe he could, and I think he would. But not until he had become old. I don't think he would lie himself down to die only because of the death of Eowyn. He had other obligations in the world.

[Lalaith]

Maybe, but if was already old and maybe only lived on because Eowyn was still alive, he would have chosen death if she died. That would be an alternative opportunity.

[Artanis]

Yes, but if he was old and he had already passed on his duties, and Eowyn was still alive, then I think he would choose to die even before her. Like Aragorn, who could have chosen to stay alive with Arwen a few more years, but did not.

I have often wondered more about their life together than their death. Do you think they were happy together? Faramir was such a perfect Man, you would expect his marriage to be perfect also. But Eowyn, do you think she was really content with a quiet life in Ithilien? Somehow I doubt it.

[Coney]

Didn't Eowyn renounce her ways and become a healer of some description? I'm sure this brought her a lot of "contentment".

Although if she were my nurse I'd be sure to take my medicine......scary woman that....

Do you think they were happy together?

I think that they would be very happy together.........They both lost a great deal during the war of the ring and in the houses of healing I think they both realised that, despite their wishes and best efforts, the world would change without them personally fighting to the death (luckily the world changed for the better)..that's is when they found their place in the world...... not on a throne, or laden with riches but with each other:)

*removes his soppy head*

[Lalaith]

Like Aragorn, who could have chosen to stay alive with Arwen a few more years, but did not.

Oh, I did not think of the fact, that Aragorn chose to die while Arwen was still alive.


have often wondered more about their life together than their death. Do you think they were happy together? Faramir was such a perfect Man, you would expect his marriage to be perfect also. But Eowyn, do you think she was really content with a quiet life in Ithilien? Somehow I doubt it.

Yeah, I always wondered what happend to them after they went to Ithilien. In RotK I miss an ending of their story like it is written of Frodo and Sam and how their lifes were.
I think they were happy, but I wonder if Eowyn really forgot about Aragorn and if Faramir was not jealous.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Coney
I think that they would be very happy together.........They both lost a great deal during the war of the ring and in the houses of healing I think they both realised that, despite their wishes and best efforts, the world would change without them personally fighting to the death (luckily the world changed for the better)..that's is when they found their place in the world...... not on a throne, or laden with riches but with each other:) Oh what great romance :) I just find it difficult to believe in the 'living-happily-ever-after' story. But then already Faramir is too good to be true, so his marriage could have been too. Am I putting too much of the real world into their marriage perhaps?

Originally posted by Lalaith
Yeah, I always wondered what happend to them after they went to Ithilien. In RotK I miss an ending of their story like it is written of Frodo and Sam and how their lifes were. That's the one defect about the LotR book (as the author himself have stated): It is too short. :(

[Lalaith]

I love the fact that everybody seems to think, that Faramir was the perfect man. Where does that opinion come from? By the way I can't remember any bad habbits of him, too.

[azalea]

Except that he was always running off with his buddies to that d*mn Forbidden Pool.;) :D

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by azalea
Except that he was always running off with his buddies to that d*mn Forbidden Pool.;) :D

Heh.

We all think Faramir is perfect, because, in the books, he has the wit to let Frodo go, instead of claiming the Ring for himself.

[Artanis]

And he was described as wise in lore, and though a strong and valiant fighter he did not love war for its own sake. Frodo noticed his nobility, an inheritance from Numenor. Through the chapters from Minas Tirith it is clear that he is highly praised and beloved by all people.

[Lalaith]

Yeah, it seems that everybody loves Faramir.
I can only remember one exception: his own father Denethor

[Artanis]

I think Denethor loved both his sons dearly, but his mind was crooked by Sauron's power and he was devastated by the loss of Boromir.

[Lalaith]

Somewhere I've read that the names Faramir and Boromir can be translated and they have a special meaning. I don't know the exact meaning but it was something like
Boromir - beloved son
Faramir - not beloved son
(it were not these words, but something like that).

[Jonathan]

This is what I found in the Encyclopedia of Arda:
The -mir ending of Faramir's name is almost certainly 'jewel' or 'precious thing', but Fara- is much more difficult to translate. The Elvish root far- means 'sufficient' or 'adequate', so it may be that the brothers Boromir and Faramir have names related to their father's attitude toward them. As Denethor's favourite son, Boromir was perhaps the 'faithful jewel', while the less favoured Faramir was merely the 'sufficient jewel'. These speculations, of course, belong to the realm of guesswork, since Tolkien makes no definitive statement about the names' origins.

I wonder, would Pippin had named his son Faramir if he knew the exact etymoligical meaning of the name?


Originally posted by Lalaith
Somewhere I've read that the names Faramir and Boromir can be translated and they have a special meaning. I don't know the exact meaning but it was something like
Boromir - beloved son
Faramir - not beloved son
(it were not these words, but something like that).

[Lalaith]

That's what I was talking of. Is the name of Pippins son Faramir? I didn't remember that.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Artanis
I have often wondered more about their life together than their death. Do you think they were happy together? Faramir was such a perfect Man, you would expect his marriage to be perfect also. But Eowyn, do you think she was really content with a quiet life in Ithilien? Somehow I doubt it. Why? Who could not be happy in Ithilien? ;)

Éowyn had seldom been happy all her life, after all, what with her parents dying young and having to watch Théoden's decline and then that nasty GrÃ*ma's eying her all the time. Yech. Also, she'd "gotten it out of her system" in a powerful way, with the assistance of Merry slaying the Witch-King of Angmar himself. I think she was delighted to have peace, a home, a family, a beautiful and secure and peaceful land and yet with access to Rohan, where she was sister of the King, any time. Nice! She probably ended up as the gardening editor for Southern Living. :D

And Faramir, the loving son of harsh Denethor and adoring younger brother of big Boromir, was pliable, too, I'll bet. There's this one section where they're talking, and Éowyn gets a little imperious (forget the exact words, something along the lines of "let's not play games here!"). Reading that, I thought, Faramir's going to love her. She would have gotten her way all the time in Ithilien. Yet Faramir would also have worked around her as gently and persistently as he did with Frodo.

Now there's another good book waiting to be written!

[Lalaith]

A book about Faramir and Eowyn?

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Lalaith
A book about Faramir and Eowyn? That would be very nice indeed. To bad Tolkien is not around so that he can write the book. I wouldn't trust that his son Christopher could write it in a satisfying way...

[Lalaith]

Every day I'm thinking of the fact what great stories Tolkien could have wrote if he only lived longer. Everything would be clearer now and there would maybe even more stories. Wow. That would have been great, but now, that he's dead, we can only dream of have more books.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Lalaith
A book about Faramir and Eowyn? Just in time for Valentine's Day. :) Any speed-writers out there?

[Lalaith]

Just in time for Valentine's Day. Any speed-writers out there?
I wrote a poem about the two of them last month.

[Narsil's Master]

I should think they will die at the same time do to the fact they are now of the same race

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I wrote a poem about the two of them last month. Would you share it with us?

[Lalaith]

Would you share it with us?
Shall I? It's pretty long and I'm not quite sure if it is that good.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Shall I? It's pretty long and I'm not quite sure if it is that good. That's OK. We're not professional critics, either, just fellow fans of E and F. :)

But there may be another part of the Trail or even of the Moot devoted to works of the Mooters -- seems I saw something about that at the home page (http://www.tolkientrail.com) once. If so, maybe you would feel more comfortable posting it there? (If so, let us know, so we can check it out!)

[Lalaith]

I'll see where I post it and then I'll announce it. Hahaha.

[Diamond]

I have just come to the conclusion that Denethor had issues. Huge, massive issues. That is all.

But Eowyn, do you think she was really content with a quiet life in Ithilien? Somehow I doubt it.

She might have gotten fidgety at some points, especially early in the marriage while she was still younger. But, all she would have to do it look at Faramir and feel content. :) (Ahem, yes, sappy, helpless romantic coming through.)

And, do post the poem! I'd like to see it!

Di

[Lalaith]

Okay, I decided to post the poem, although I don't think it is that good.
It may include some mistakes, but I hope you forgive me because I had some difficulties in making an english rhyme (English is not my first language).
I'll post it in three parts, because it is too long and it consists of three parts.

[Lalaith]

A strong man was he
Who, in his dreams, the future could see
Black was his hair and beard
A hero, who nothing feared
From the character of his brother he was independent
The borders of Gondor he defended
In Ithilien the Dark Lord he tried to defeat
He wouldn’t take his ring if it lay on a street
But helped the ring-bearer to fulfil his task
Although too many questions he wouldn’t ask
He stayed in Ithilien till the end
With his men he tried to defend
But the enemy grew too strong
But this shall not be told in this song
He stood against Sauron’s attack
And left fallen Osgiliath with the enemy in his back
To help the City of Kings he flew
But in his heart he knew
That the Dark Lord was too strong
But he still carried on
Near Minas Tirith he fell hurt badly
And Prince Imrahil had to carry him home sadly
Then he was going to be burnt by his father
But brave Beregond saved him rather
A descendant of Númenor was he
And his fate will change for good, you’ll see

[Lalaith]

A maiden of the Rohirrim was she
The most beautiful you could ever see
A lady with a big, suffering heart
And a fighter, right from the start
She loved her brother Éomer very much
And from fear about the kind her heart was touched
She felt like in a gilded cage she was trapped
Until he suddenly in her life stepped
The hidden king of Gondor, Aragorn was his name
She fell in love with him, but he didn’t feel the same
Éowyn loved him because he was brave and strong
To him she wanted to belong
Bet he was already taken
She felt like forsaken
Because she was not allowed to ride to the fight
But she decided just right
Undercover she rode with the men
And arrived to defend the City of Gondor then
Hide her body and blonde hair under her armour
And fought like a man though it was a torture
The Lord of the Nazgúl killed Theoden king
And therefore Éowyn wanted vengeance for this thing
It was said that the Lord of Morgul couldn’t be killed by a man’s hand
But against the White Lady of Rohan it couldn’t stand
Many songs will men sing
How Éowyn and the Halfling killed the Witch-king
But she was hurt during the attack
And in belief of her death she was carried back

[Lalaith]

This two humans were in need to heal
But their illness nobody was able to reveal
And then Aragorn, the healer, came
Saw that they both had the same
They were sick of the Black Breath
But Elessar saved them from death
In the Houses of Healing the two of them first met
As soon as out of their beds they were let
Recognized their strong connection right from the start
And nothing should ever tear them apart
But the Lady of the Shield-arm still thought she loved Aragorn
To whom, in her heart, she had her love sworn
After the war her brother wanted to have her near
But she stayed in the White City with Faramir
He asked her why she decided to stay
But the true reason she could not say
Then Faramir told her that he loved her so much
Her heart it was able to touch
She realized that she loved him, too
And her love was really true
In the halls of Meduseld Éowyn and Faramir
Married to be forever near
Of great joy was this day
Later they went to beautiful Ithilien to stay
Faramir, Steward of Gondor, became prince of this land
And with Éowyn, Lady of Rohan, he lived happily hand in hand

[Snowdog]

I always thought that Faramir kept Éowyn barefoot and pregnant those early years after the war, and then there were maybe 4 dishwater blonde-ish kids running around the Palace grounds of Emyn Arnen. After 10-15 years, when Aragorn was often driven out of the Palace in Minas Tirith by all the daughters, and wife and their healthy elven pms, he would go fly-fishing the Anduin. He would stop by Emyn Arnen to visitafter landing a couple Anduin steelhead salmon and they would have a nice bbq. Of course by this time, Faramir too would find reasons to get away from the wife and kids, and so it was quite interesting when Aragorn would stop by while Faramir was gone. Of course, when Faramir and Eowyn would visit Aragorn and Arwen at the palace, there were parties that were talked of for generations! ;)

[Lalaith]

Strange.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Lalaith, that is beautiful. I relived their whole story again. Thank you!!!

I wish I knew Austrian, which others tell me is a very beautiful language, to be able to read it in the original.

[Lalaith]

Thank you Lady of Ithilien. I really gave my best but actually there isn't a german version because I only wrote it in english. It would have been to difficult to translate a german rhyme into an english one.
But a huge thank you!