About Eowyn

[Kirinki54]

I always found it curious that not only did Eowyn manage to go along for the ride to Gondor, but she also managed to smuggle Merry with her under the cloak. But never mind.

Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means?
What was the name of her horse?

[Wayfarer]

She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight.

'Dern Helm"

[afro-elf]

LOL wayfarer

[afro-elf]

there is something in the book saying that "dernhelm" and the leader of her company had an understanding


BUT how did hide being a woman

I'm not trying to be vulgar

but was she small breasted?

and wasn't there something about someone tripping over merry


did she always ride in the rear?


how did she use the bathroom with all the guys around

did merry ride in front or back

[Ñólendil]

Elfhelm was the Rohir who tripped over Merry, he was the captain who had an understanding with Dernhelm. Many of the company perhaps were aware of her presense, but they were definitely aware of Merry. They pretended not to hear him if he spoke. Merry noticed she was different from the other guys: shorter, smaller, more lithe and fair. Sharp as a blade, and cold, yet soft.

So I imagine the men gave her her privacy. Merry rode in the front, I believe.

Anyway I don't suppose there were many breast implants six thousand years ago.

[Kirinki54]

So, no clue to the name? I myself have been searching the Ardalambion but found nothing.

[afro-elf]

My copy is back in the states, so I don't recall, I think they list all the name meanings in there. I'll e-mail my family and have them check.


also, do you think that eowyn rode with her closet friends who kept silent about it to theoded?

what would have been their penalty do disobeying the king?

[Ñólendil]

You wouldn't Kirinki, as it's not something 'invented' by Tolkien, being Old English (more or less, I guess), if you didn't know. The 'helm' part just means 'helm'. From what I read, it seems a lot of times Tolkien changed the Old English spellings a bit so as not to seem so uncouth. But this is an Old English-to-English guide I found: click here (http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/ger/oen/eroeneng.htm).

No penalty, I think, unless it be the Black Breath. Theoden readily forgave Meriadoc.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
You wouldn't Kirinki, as it's not something 'invented' by Tolkien, being Old English (more or less, I guess), if you didn't know. The 'helm' part just means 'helm'. From what I read, it seems a lot of times Tolkien changed the Old English spellings a bit so as not to seem so uncouth.

I thought there was a chance it was a term of the actual Rohiric.

Still, Eowyn´s choice of name should mean something, probably pointing at the situation.

Looked through the dictionary at your link. No ´dern´ but suppose the word ´duru´ (door) had an article ´n´ (guessing wildly here at how Old English was put together). Then, with a slight change as you suggest, Dernhelm could be construed as ´Soldier of the Door´; that is Merry´s option to go with the riders.

But guessing in etymology is usually doomed to fail...

[afro-elf]

sorry i meant to say my copy of the complete guide to middle earth is back in the states

[afro-elf]

Inoldonil

what did theoden say when he forgive merry?

i let one of the brits here borrow my LOTR so i can't check for myself

[Ñólendil]

Then Merry stooped and lifted his hand to kiss it, and lo! Théoden opened his eyes, and they were clear, and he spoke in a quiet voice though laboured.

'Farewell, Master Holbytla!' he said. 'My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now b ashamed. I felled the black serpent. [the captain of the Haradrim, his banner and many of his company] A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!'

Merry could not speak, but wept anew. 'Forgive me, lord,' he said at last, 'if I broke your command, and yet have done no ore in your service than to weep at our parting.'

The old king smiled. 'Grieve not! It is forgiven. Great heart will not be denied. Live now in blessedness; and when you sit in peace with your pipe, think of me! For never now shall I sit with you in Meduseld, as I promised, or listen to your herb-lore.' He closed his eyes, and Merry bowed beside him. Presently he spoke again. 'Where is Éomer? For my eyes darken, and I would see him ere I go. He must be king after me. And I would send word to Éowyn. She, she would not have me leave her, and now I shall not see her again, dearer than daughter.'

'Lord, lord,' began Merry brokenly, 'she is ---- '; but at that moment there was a great clamour, and all about them horns and trumpets were blowing.

[afro-elf]

sounding like elvis
why thank'ya very much


also in the complete guide to middle earth
they have the definition of many names but NOT one for dernhelm

[Sakata]

I dont think it would have been that hard to look like a man, just wear baggie clothes and keep the cloak pull around you, I bet she just looked like one of the guys. I have passed as a man with a baggie sweatshirt and baseball cap before(dont ask).

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Sakata
I have passed as a man with a baggie sweatshirt and baseball cap before(dont ask).

Ah! So perhaps Dernhelm means ´baseball cap´! ;)

But there was Eowyn sneaking in not only as a man, but also sneaking into a military force going to war. Rohan had an organised cavalry, IMO. And then there was the Hobbit. So I would guess some of the riders simply had to be in on it, at least from the point of no return. And still both Eomer and Theoden was kept in the dark up until Pelennor... Curious! :confused:

[Ñólendil]

I dont think it would have been that hard to look like a man, just wear baggie clothes and keep the cloak pull around you, I bet she just looked like one of the guys.

The Rohirrim wore baggy chain-mail, then?

At least Elfhelm and some of his company were in on it, that's all you need.

[Selwythe]

Don't get started on Jeanne D'Arc and Hua Mulan...

[Snowdog]

A side note here since the armor discussion came up. Is it just me or has others think the armor of the Rohirrim was plate? I always did because the ringlet chain mail of the the dwarves was so exotic and prized. Others say they had chain mail... opinions?

[crickhollow]

I always thought that the dwarven mail was prized because it was wrought so well. I don't like the idea of mixing chain and plated armor, but that's just from a history major's point of view...They were both from the middle ages, but chain mail came first, and plate armor followed later

This is off the top of my head--feel free to correct me

[Ñólendil]

And there was no plate armor to be found hither or thither in the Lord of the Rings.

[Earniel]

The Rohirrim would doubtlesly have their own smithies (sp?) where they could make armour. So they would have had their own kind of chailmail, I guess. Perhaps not as good as the mithil and dwarf-made armour but good enough. The dwarfmade armour was well-wrought but I guess a little too expensive to clothe your entire army with.

[Ñólendil]

The Rohirrim actually got most of their armor from Gondor.

There was not a Dwarven settlement near Rohan at the time of the War of the Ring either. The Blue Mountains, The Lonely Mountain and the Iron Hills were all very far away and extremely unlikely to be trading with Rohan, given the conditions of roads in those days.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Kirinki54
What was the name of her horse?
Wasn't it Windfola?

[Elfie]

Dernhelm means "helm of secrecy". Appropriate no?

Elfie goes back to lurking

[Ms. Undomial]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Wasn't it Windfola?

Yes it was WIndfola.

[Eowyn of Rohan]

I have found two opinions as to the meaning of the name Dernhelm:

1) Found at:
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/roccalas.htm
(An elvish poem about Eowyn. Translated at bottom - see section IV.)

The Old English name Dernhelm used by Éowyn means "Hidden Protection" (see An Introduction to Elvish p. 217)

In Elvish (Quenya) it is here rendered as Haldatir "Hidden Watch(er)" (halda + tir).


2) Found at:
http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/975363464
(This site also has pictures of some of the Rohirrim helm's used in the movie.)

I am betting that Eowyn will be wearing of the "eye and nasal guard" helmets when she is disguised as Dernhelm. Originally Tolkien was going to disguise Eowyn with the name of "Grimhelm". A grimhelm is a type of masked helmet used in Northern Europe during the early Dark Ages; grimhelms are mentioned in Beowulf a few times. Tolkien didn't go with the "Grimhelm" concept, probably because the name was too close to Grima Wormtongue's name, and perhaps because he did not want to cover Eowyn's face completely with a mask. Merry needed to be able to see "The face one who goes seeking death". So Eowyn became Dernhelm, "Helm of Secrecy". The Type of helmet shown here would be perfect to conceal her identity while only partially covering her face.

-------------------------------

Hope that answers some questions as to the meaning of Dernhelm.

And, yes, Eowyn's horse is named Windfola.

Some other information about Eowyn and names....
Eowyn in Old English means "Horse-joy".
Eowyn in Elvish (Quenya) is Roccalas.

I do not yet know whether or not Eowyn's sword had a name. I believe it was just a regular Rohan sword from the Edoras armory, but I am not yet satisfied with my research on that.

I have stores of useless research on this chick. Any more questions, just ask! :) Yes, I'm a big dork!

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Elfie
Dernhelm means "helm of secrecy". Appropriate no?

Elfie goes back to lurking

Finally! Another NZer! :D Welcome, Lurker. ;)