Just how powerful was Gandalf the Grey ?

[SilverToungedDevil]

In the chapter "Many Meetings", Gandalf is talking to a recuperating Frodo and says :

"Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey," said the wizard solemnly. "There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming. The Morgul-lord and his Black Riders have come forth. War is preparing !"

Who do you believe he is thinking of at that time ? Obviously he means the Morgul Lord and the other Nazgul ( evil ). He must also be making some reference to the Elven Lords ( good ). While Sauron must be in the " greater than I am " category, who else does that leave ? Where in the ranks of the great and powerful does Gandalf the Grey stand ? :confused: ( I'm only talking about the Powers of middle-earth, I'm not including the Valar. )

[samwise of the shire]

if you think about it, it was Gandalf the Grey that fought against the Balrog(remember Gandalf was sent back with a new body, AFTER He had died on Cahadras), and Balrogs were some of the greatest of Maiar, I think that it says somewhere in the Sillmarillion that near the end Sauron could'nt control them so if Gandalf the grey was able to kick the demon into oblivion then he must've been near the top.
Hope that helped. Oh and welcome to Entmoot :)
Sam

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by SilverToungedDevil
Obviously he means the Morgul Lord and the other Nazgul ( evil ). He must also be making some reference to the Elven Lords ( good ).

I don´t think Gandalf was contemplating to measure his powers with any Elven lords.
But he knew he would have to go up against Saruman in the near future.
As for the Balrog, I think Gandalf was genuinely surprised (and disgusted).

[Comic Book Guy]

Gandalf the grey was able to kick the demon into oblivion then he must've been near the top.

Well of course he defeated the balrog, but only after long week long struggle, after which he died. You seemed to state that it was easy for Gandalf to win.

The only real power that could really contest with Gandalf the Grey on Middle-Earth were...


Sauron
Saruman
Radagast
The blue wizards
Balrog
Dragon?
Tom Bombadil


I say Bombadil because of the possible theories of his species, such as Maia, Vala or even lluvatar and also because of his mastery over the ring, which Gandalf did not have. I believe Radagast and the Blue wizards were below him in power, but they could have give Gandalf a run for his money.

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

*feels very confused* Umm...Blue Wizards? I don't think I remember ever reading about them....are they talked about in The Hobbit, LOTR, or the Sim? Those are the books I've read. (I'm going to be reading Unfinished Tales as soon as we get it unpacked...man, I hate moving)

[samwise of the shire]

Well my point was that Gandalf DID win over the Balrog, of course it was'nt easy but the point is he DID win.

The Two Blue Wizards were part of the White Council sent by the Valar to Middle Earth, but they went off into the east or west and were never heard of again. I think there're mentioned in the Sil and there is a small epic about the Istari wizards in Unfinished Tales.

[SilverToungedDevil]

Sauron

Saruman

Radagast

The Blue wizards

Balrog

Dragon?

Tom Bombadil

I think this list by Comic Book Guy is a good place to start. But what about the Lord of the Nazgul ? Personally I think he could wipe the floor with Radagast so I would place him higher than the Brown Wizard. What about an enraged Ent ? I know it is highly unlikely, but Saruman feared the Ents, so would one make Gandalf pause for thought ?

I don't believe for a momemt that Gandalf thought it necessary to measure himself against the rest of the Wise, but it is interesting to speculate whether he was more or less powerful than say Elrond, Glorfindel, Galadriel etc.

As for the Balrog, that was technically a draw as Gandalf died as well, only being sent back to ME by the Valar so that he could complete his long task.

As for Bombadil, I don't know, he is a mystery, I think it would be better to look at the earlier thread about him, but I think he would rank as maybe more powerful than Gandalf, as a guess that is, coz I can't produce any evidence, it would be more of an impression that Bombadil was a lot more than he appeared.

Could that power ( Sauron ) be defied by Bombadil alone ? I think not . I think that in the end, if all else is conquered , Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.

Thankyou to Samwise of the shire for the welcome.

[Comic Book Guy]

The list wasn't in any paticualar order SilverToungedDevil, though when I first saw the question I automatically thought Sauron as the most powerful being on Middle-Earth at the time.

I don't know about the Witch King as more powerful than Radagast, he was a powerful sorcerer, but Radagast at times probally was as well, he took part in the storming of Dol Guldor ( We still need to see that post Inoldinol).

Well anybody would be afraid of a an entire army of ents, but as for one wizard against an enraged ent, the wizard would win. It would take a lot of power to kill a wizard, a wizard at its power at least.

Bombadil, we shall never (annoyingly) know.

[ringbearer]

I think Gandalf was equal to or more powerfull than any...but he was "not allowed to use his power to it's fullest extent".

[IronParrot]

I'm not sure if this contradicts something, but my theory (upon my latest re-reading) is that Gandalf's power as an Istari was significantly augmented by his possession of Narya, and of course waned after the destruction of the Ruling Ring. Which relates to his lack of involvement in the retaking of the Shire, and his comment that his time is over...

But this is all based on a question I don't have the answer to: Just how long did Gandalf hold Narya anyway? And just how powerful are the Istari without any, er, "help"?

[ringbearer]

From appendix B...The Tale of Years;

Opening pragraph of the third age states Cirdan gave Gandalf the ring as soon as he set foot on the shores of Middle Earth.
About 1,000 years into the Third Age.

[Ñólendil]

At the time of the LOTR, Gandalf had been in possession of Narya for app. 2018 years. It definitely enhances his abillity to set fair visions in the heart and kindle those of the Free Peoples with hope, to forget the imaginations of darkness. It doesn't appear to me that it enhanced his power as an Istar in another way.

What kind of ' "help" ' do you mean?

I might say combat is not necessarily the answer to the question of 'how poweful is he/she' when dealing with the Beautiful of the Holy Ones. Not unless you just want to know who's coming out on top in a fight. Saruman does not appear to be a 'fighter', while Gandalf's talents of light and heat are suitable for the purpose. I don't think we know enough about Radagast. 'Morinehtar'; 'Darkness-slayer' (one of the Blue Wizards) might have some skill as a warrior (it's even more likely I guess if he's of Orome's people, like the earlier conception of the Blue Wizards), judging by the name.

Thanks for reminding me about the post. It's nothing huge really, just a summary on what I know about Radagast. I don't know that he took part in the storming of Dol Guldur. He was in the White Council, but that doesn't mean he was in the assault on that city.

[Kirinki54]

I think Narya certainly helped Gandalf in certain areas, but as been said, not necessarily when it came to power.

But we should not forget that there where in fact TWO Gandalfs. The New and Improved Gandalf came back from Valinor considerably strengthened, IMO.

[afro-elf]

as far as who won i would say Gandalf did

the balrog died first, and was prevented from wreaking further havoc upon the world.

Celeborne feared this. that is why he may have appeared like an ass, because a balrog was loosened and lorein was right on the door steps. maybe gandalf knew this too. thus his objective was complete.


here is a question though

when durin's bane was wakened earlier in the age, did it ever leave moria.

a lot of Elves fled, was it fear or did the beast actually attack anything beside dwarves?

[SilverToungedDevil]

The Balrog fled the destruction of Angband during the War of Wrath, and hid beneath the Misty Mountains, maybe over time it got trapped there and it wasn't until the dwarves came along, digging their tunnels everywhere that it was eventually freed. I don't think it ever left Moria, maybe it did not want to bring too much attention to itself, more likely it may have remained there at the request of Sauron, it certainly did a lot of damage by doing just that.
It was mostly the dwarves that suffered but maybe some elves fled fearing what it may do if let loose in ME.
Yeah, the Balrog died first, but Gandalf died also, and we still don't know whether it was fully Gandalf that returned, besides when he did it was only mean't to be for a short while, but yes the Balrog was vanquished forever.

[Comic Book Guy]

more likely it may have remained there at the request of Sauron

I don't think Sauron could have commanded the balrog, even if they are old buddies, the Balrog would probally carry on with its own business and ignore Sauron.

[SilverToungedDevil]

I don't think he could have commanded it as well ... but a request with the offer of some sort of reward later ... some sort of accommodation ? "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours". As the Necromancer in Mirkwood at Dol Guldur, Sauron was not too far from Moria, there could have been a link or connection.

By the way were you waiting for me to post there ... I had only just done it before you replied ... LOL :D

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by afro-elf
when durin's bane was wakened earlier in the age, did it ever leave moria.

a lot of Elves fled, was it fear or did the beast actually attack anything beside dwarves?

Nothing indicates that it was ever known exactly what horror or enemy that killed off the Moria Swarves. Had Elves been attacked or had they even feared the Balrog, I am quite sure Gandalf would have known about it. But he was surprised when it attacked the Company.

IMO the Balrog went back into hiding after killing the Dwarves. Any sight-seeing in the countryside should have been noticed. A Balrog seems fairly easy to spot.

[Wayfarer]

"Just how powerful was Gandalf the Grey ?"


Gandalf owns j00

[Ñólendil]

To the original post: I did not get the impression he was including the Elven lords in his quote. Certainly you're right about the Lord of Morgul. Saruman was greater than Gandalf, that can be seen from their 'confrontation' in Orthanc: there was no need for one. Gandalf's words were empty and Saruman laughed in his face. Only Gandalf the White could have dealt with Saruman of Many Colours.